1.20 balance change for Core Eras and Units made by the Balance Team

[Mirion147]

While I still think having a unit tree that goes from club to axe, to club is weird, if there's a unit that maintains axe and a unit that switches to club(outlaw), I think that puts this within an acceptable position to test.

[Mechanical]

@Mirion147 Please read my posts more carefully. I directly wrote in my point 1

“change a club to an axe at all unit levels”

Together with the arguments in point 2, this does solve the described problem with RIPLIB, which is certainly present if a unit changes its damage type within its ruler.

@Dalas121 I'm not sure we should block quality gameplay changes because of contrived reasons. It's not like we're creating a trend. This is an isolated case backed up by years of ladder testing, I don't see any other similar examples, and I certainly don't suggest fixing other balance issues with a similar method.

And I think calling it a split is a stretch. I suggest to justify the changes graphically and lore-wise, it is not the same as having, conventionally, the same unit, without external and lore differences, but with different characteristics in SP and MP, which is bad and confusing ofc.

Especially since you yourself noticed the presence of two variations of scorpions and many variations of zombies in the game.

[ForestDragon]

Different unit lines or variations with slightly different names + different sprites could potentially work, as long as the standard Footpad line stays as is for SP/add-ons. In that case the axe version would be used in MP + some SP content, while the standard footpad would be mostly SP-only

I think that kind idea is much less controversial than directly editing the normal Footpad (and the latter is what seems to be being voted on at the moment, so it's unsurprising that a lot of people voted against. a vote on a new unit/variation would likely get different results)

[lhybrideur]

I do not feel strongly about that change as long as the level-ups get the same treatment.
As was already said, it would be weird to go club-axe-club.
Would changing footpad adn lvl-ups to blade break that much sp content? I think this needs to be tested with the add-on era.
My main concern was about the sprites by Mech already said he can do them.

[Spannerbag]

Just a small point on wording:
Adding the best and most important balance change or not (Ladder variation of Footpad)
I know it's hard to believe, but not everyone scrutinises every single line of every post then carefully considers the arguments.
Yet they can vote in this poll.

As I'm not involved in the ladder, I don't feel qualified/eligible to vote as this wouldn't affect me.
However others might vote without perhaps grasping the scope of the question?

Assuming my understanding is correct, it might be worth adding a note to explicitly state that this poll, whatever the result, will not affect mainline units and will only affect ladder play (thereby hinting to folk like me that if you don't play ladder maybe you shouldn't vote).
Might it not also be possible to add a third choice: Don't know/care to capture overall motivation/interest in this change?
(Also asking if voter is a ladder player or not is probably too much...)

Cheers!
-- Spannerbag

[gnombat]

As I'm not involved in the ladder, I don't feel qualified/eligible to vote as this wouldn't affect me.

...

Assuming my understanding is correct, it might be worth adding a note to explicitly state that this poll, whatever the result, will not affect mainline units and will only affect ladder play...

That doesn't make much sense... This change is already in the Ladder Era, and has been for a long time (for example, see the Footpad in the 1.14 version of the Ladder Era, which has been around for several years at least).

I believe the question is asking whether this change should be applied to core/mainline Wesnoth.

[Skyend]

Ok, I change the voting option also enable the ability to change your vote. (overlooked that)
Current stand is about even (ladder) 8:9 (default)

[Roge_Tebnelok]

Axe-wielding outlaw would better work not as footpad's, but as thug's variation, although if it's a separate third advancement of ruffian that could work even better, especially if we're going for lumberjack vibe. Unlike his advancements, ruffian uses two hands in swinging his club, putting his weight in the wide arc, while on level 1 only one hand is used without wrist action typical for bladed weapons. Highwayman later regains the animation of ruffian, but at this point he is already solidified in his impact damage focus, and giving him an axe would require the change in his posture, which would be less purposefully intimidating.

[Mirion147]

@Mirion147 Please read my posts more carefully. I directly wrote in my point 1

“change a club to an axe at all unit levels”

Together with the arguments in point 2, this does solve the described problem with RIPLIB, which is certainly present if a unit changes its damage type within its ruler.

You may have said this, but the balance team has presented only the footpad as a change. I have already asked about this, and it was confirmed that only the footpad is on the table. So until the balance team presents the entire line for alteration, the RIPLIB issue is still at play. Sorry for reading your post as containing a language barrier issue, not an "I'm talking about something that has already been confirmed as not happening" issue.

@Dalas121 I'm not sure we should block quality gameplay changes because of contrived reasons. It's not like we're creating a trend. This is an isolated case backed up by years of ladder testing, I don't see any other similar examples, and I certainly don't suggest fixing other balance issues with a similar method.

This is how trends start. There's already been questions of splitting mp and sp, this would open the door to that very easily. I'm not sure that these are "contrived reasons", and that sounds somewhat insulting to say that.

If the general take is to add a new level 1 outlaw, I'm the most okay with that, though i still question how bringing the KA down to only 1 impact unit so they can have 7 blade units is a good move, let alone the right one. I don't see why it needs to be a variation of footpad and not just it's own specific unit. Walking corpse variations are very specific in how they are produced, they're not just a naturally recruitable occurrence. In regards to scorpions we see how having one opens the doors to having more. This is to say that while there is defense that "this is not a trend", this proves how it can become one.

[Skyend]

You may have said this, but the balance team has presented only the footpad as a change. I have already asked about this, and it was confirmed that only the footpad is on the table

If the general take is to add a new level 1 outlaw, I'm the most okay with that, though i still question how bringing the KA down to only 1 impact unit so they can have 7 blade units is a good move, let alone the right one.

Remember this thread is for everyone. 5 posts of you to complain about footpad that early on is too much.
We have limited time, I'm not going forward to read through your repetitive complaining. Instead I'm working on this project.

• I brought footpad up as the first, since it's the most important and for casuals an odd change. The balance team exist for less than a week, we didn't even had time to discuss much. Currently setting up a structure for discussion.

• Many ideas and good options were presented by the community on how to handle footpat

• @ForestDragon is working on an add-on that allows you to use the changes in sp campaigns too

• There will always be testing on the Eras and Units, so why don't you wait and test it out first?

[Mirion147]

What is that response? I'm literally being @'d and I'm responding. Not to mention that I'm not stopping anyone from posting.

[Temuchin Khan]

You may have said this, but the balance team has presented only the footpad as a change. I have already asked about this, and it was confirmed that only the footpad is on the table

If the general take is to add a new level 1 outlaw, I'm the most okay with that, though i still question how bringing the KA down to only 1 impact unit so they can have 7 blade units is a good move, let alone the right one.

Remember this thread is for everyone. 5 posts of you to complain about footpad that early on is too much.
We have limited time, I'm not going forward to read through your repetitive complaining.

In his defense, though, most of those who have voted so far seem to agree with him. I see 8 "no" votes, 2 "change everywhere" votes, and 1 "change in only some places" vote. So, currently, Skyend, those of us who want the change are being outvoted 8-3. Maybe you should pay attention to his concerns!

[matto]

.....

[Skyend]

In his defense, though, most of those who have voted so far seem to agree with him. I see 8 "no" votes, 2 "change everywhere" votes, and 1 "change in only some places" vote. So, currently, Skyend, those of us who want the change are being outvoted 8-3. Maybe you should pay attention to his concerns!

This is a dynamic voting, with the option that ppl change their opinion after testing (or at any point).
I couldn't care less for the first 5h of voting.

His concerns were addressed countless of time by enough ppl.
And as said before testing I can't care less.

[Mirion147]

If I've broken any forum rules then I submit to moderation by a forum moderator. Until that time, especially since you don't care anyway, I will respond to people as I see fit.