The Qesicans (Development Stage: Art/Submission to the EE)

[Qes]

hmm still something wrong... ^^

try either this way:

- keep everything lowercase

- use Qesicans_Era and UnitName and make sure the files are like this.


lu

im keeping everything lowercase, or so I had thought.

The only things that are not lowercase are that which appear in the game. Like for descriptions of units and the like.
-Qes


EDIT: The next version will not have the addon-icon bug. I"ll just switch it to something standard, like the spearman that was suggested.

[Velensk]

I have played around with your faction a couple times and here are my comments.

-Very quirky
-Congradulations for creating lvl0 posioers and very fast scouts /w skirmish/slow attack that arn't unbalanced
-I would increase the xp cost for some units (in particular the pebble master)
-It seemed like it was trying to use as many special abilities as possible it may be my odd prefrence but I think I'd prefer if there was at least one unit without special abilities though I don't know what role it would fill without destroying the lack of a basic fighter unit theme that helps make this interesting.
-The shear weight of unfamilier traits was a bit confusing for awhile
-It would be nice to be able to test them against somthing other than knalgans. For one thing I could not in the 4 games I played manage to beat myself as knalgans (who are the faction I play the best).
-The faction as a whole was very vunerable to ulfserkers having olny two units who could effectively fight them (roundsheilds and to a certain extent monks) one of which was more expensive than the ulfserker.
-I may be mistooken but it seemed that the balista that got the firststrike trait lost the dread weapon special (that or it just did not show up)
-I have always thought of balsita as being a type of seige engine, the unit you show seemed to merely be someone with a very heavy cross bow, but then again I'm not nessisaraly a representitive sample
-Your faction completely lacked any sort of blade weapon this may not be a problem.
-If you ever intend to balance against all defalut factions you will need to figure out some way for this faction to effectivly fight woses
-The complete lack of alinment in this faction makes it hard to mount an effective attack -->
--assuming that your enemy in in good terrain you could go and try to poision with freemen but the odds arn't great and even if you do it is delayed damage and practicaly no damage if they are on a village
--balista/pebblemaster are good for softning up but then if you fail to cover them they are ulf fodder and even then 13-2normal and 2-8 magic have a hard time breaking through knalgan defences (no good way of killing gaurdsmen especialy when they are on villages.
--round sheilds are good units but they arn't very good at an offensive drive, monks arn't bad but for their cost they arn't good enough.
--scouts can get around and slow things down making it easier for your other units but lack the offensive capabilities of their own.

[Qes]

I have played around with your faction a couple times and here are my comments.

-Very quirky

That is by design - I like quirkiness

-Congradulations for creating lvl0 posioers and very fast scouts /w skirmish/slow attack that arn't unbalanced

thank you very much that took a lot of doing and help from others

-I would increase the xp cost for some units (in particular the pebble master)

The qesicans are supposed to be about fast leveling. That is their "main" ability. They level quickly on purpose. If however the pebblemancer needs balancing, then perhaps she should get less ability elsewhere - I dont really like to mess with XP unless to make them level FASTER.

Note: "stalwart" as an trait is an exception. The only unit I can justify for leveling slower is the roundshield and potentially the scout. This is because they get FAR more HP than everything else, and because one of the principle ways to "adapt" for the Brohdokai is to survive. As such i can justify increasing their XP and HP accordingly.

-It seemed like it was trying to use as many special abilities as possible it may be my odd prefrence but I think I'd prefer if there was at least one unit without special abilities though I don't know what role it would fill without destroying the lack of a basic fighter unit theme that helps make this interesting.

This is a common complaint. People I think dont necessarily expect that this faction is about timing and the sublte use of abilities. Yes the Qesicans have a large amount of toys at their disposal, but the roundshield IS the basic fighter unit - if only that it's principal ability is meant to be survival.
Granted their heavily defensive, and thus specialized, but the over use (or dependancy) of special abilities is a bit of a downfall, even for a Qesicans player. One of my close friends does not like the Qesicans at all, chiefly because they're "too spicy" and lack a certain quality of standarization. I'm paraphrasing, but that's the gist of it i think. Still, that's why they're "different" than any other faction - so only time will tell.

-The shear weight of unfamilier traits was a bit confusing for awhile

Yes, the learning curve for the Qesicans is quite high. I intended this faction to be used by people who like more subtlety than brute force or lightning speed. Generally the types of players that exist are three fold. Those who like to beat the other player down (Brute) then there are those who use attrition and time to their advantage (Turtle) and then there are the rare few who use insights, foresight, and subltety to achieve their aims, and get into a position unexpected and lethal (Rogue). The Qesicans are suited more to the "Rogue" style of play. "Rogue" style is typically a more advanced style, and requires both a steeper learning curve and a willingness to learn it regardless.

The traits were designed to give each of the "caste" Qesican units a sense of individuality AND a slight advent of randomness. The idea of the Qesican's is that they are first and foremost a "free people" and as such have more freedom and individuality in their ranks. The Qesicans then "use what they have" and adapt to whatever life throws at them. Hence the possibility of 6 different traits per caste member. The freedmen still only get 4.

-It would be nice to be able to test them against somthing other than knalgans. For one thing I could not in the 4 games I played manage to beat myself as knalgans (who are the faction I play the best).

They are being balanced for entry into the Extended Era. I will do whatever is necessary or desired to meet that end. The Qesicans thus far require the Extended Era to play - so I'm confused why you'd only play the Knalgan's against them. I have found the northerners a surprizing difficulty for the Qesicans to handle. And the Knalgans despite their versatility between outlaws and dwarves, for me have never been a particularly daunting threat. But then I dont play against myself. So that's new to me.

-The faction as a whole was very vunerable to ulfserkers having olny two units who could effectively fight them (roundsheilds and to a certain extent monks) one of which was more expensive than the ulfserker.

Yes, the Qesicans are vulnerable to berzerking units. This is for two reasons. A) It gives them a very large and obvious weakness that balances them somewhat. and B) It gives berzerking units a bit more utility in other factions. I for one never build the things because they always die - and they're usually quite expensive. The qesicans having a weakness to them, inherently grants more utility to all other berzerking units in all other factions.

-I may be mistooken but it seemed that the balista that got the firststrike trait lost the dread weapon special (that or it just did not show up)

The Quickdraw trait REPLACES the dread special. That is on purpose. A firststrike AND dread would simply be overpowerful, as it'd have an offensive and defensive capability.

-I have always thought of balsita as being a type of seige engine, the unit you show seemed to merely be someone with a very heavy cross bow, but then again I'm not nessisaraly a representitive sample

Historically it IS a seige weapon. But i wanted a crossbow-alternate. So i chose the word "Ballista". The Ballista can upgrade into the Ballistaen - which is the historical equivalent of what you know in history.

-Your faction completely lacked any sort of blade weapon this may not be a problem.

I know - it adds to the quirkiness. Most every faction has a standard unit that does blade damage. The Qesicans are anything if not non-standard.

-If you ever intend to balance against all defalut factions you will need to figure out some way for this faction to effectivly fight woses

I like the fact that wose are a real problem for the Qesicans. In my imagination, the Qesicans had never encountered a Wose prior to their establishing of their millitary. The wose should be a major threat to the Qesicans for a few reasons.
A) The Qesicans are quite effective against other elven units.
B) A elven player that produces only wose will be very slow, Qesican scouts can then take all the villages - and then make a economic vicotry more possible.
C) The qesicans can level very quickly, and there are several level 2 Qesican units that can dish out a great amount of Fire, Blade or Arcane damage.
D) The monks and pebblmancers have a 1/3 chance to get "spiritual" which replaces their main melee attack with "arcane" damage - this then becomes the ultimate tool to killing non-humanoid units.

-The complete lack of alinment in this faction makes it hard to mount an effective attack -->
--assuming that your enemy in in good terrain you could go and try to poision with freemen but the odds arn't great and even if you do it is delayed damage and practicaly no damage if they are on a village

They also lack any sort of weakness. Which means they can more easily handle factions of alignment during either time of day. The ballista, for example, does extensive damage, and is then not ever 'less useful' than normal. Attacking with Qesicans requires planning and control. The Qesicans do not win fights because of numbers or because of brute strength, they win fights because they disallow the enemy to fight on its own terms. Qesicans are about controling enemy movement and fighting style. Qesicans are very adept at putting the enemy right where they want them and keeping them there. Qesicans win when they control the terms of engagement.

--balista/pebblemaster are good for softning up but then if you fail to cover them they are ulf fodder and even then 13-2normal and 2-8 magic have a hard time breaking through knalgan defences (no good way of killing gaurdsmen especialy when they are on villages.

Ballista and mancers are intended to be protected by the roundshields, monks and scouts. If the enemy cannot reach them, they're effectively invincible no?

They're use is only for attack, and they do their jobs well. The ballista does sheer amounts of damage, and with enough of them 4-5 you will hit, and you generally WILL kill what your trying to. THe mancers are meant not as "lots" of damage, but instead "assured damage". Using freedmen to poison the enemy, Brohdokai to contain it, and then mancers to kill it once its weak is a common if not complicated tactic. In villages, it is easy to kill entrenched units with the melee of the mancer as its damage is almost always assured, and it does more than the 'heal' that the village provides
combining with ballista, any village that is isolated will fall.

This is by design, generally qesicans should not be fighting over villages
they should be fighting in the fields, and using scouts to get villages that are unoccupied. It is easier to leave a guardsmen in a village, as long as it wants, and take other towns with scouts than it is to fight over one. The Qesicans are masters of defeating an enemy through use in economy.

--round sheilds are good units but they arn't very good at an offensive drive, monks arn't bad but for their cost they arn't good enough.
--scouts can get around and slow things down making it easier for your other units but lack the offensive capabilities of their own.

That's on purpose. If i gave the roundshields offensive capabilty as well as their extensive defenesive capability - one would never build anything but them. As it is, they're job is to occupy the enemy so that ballista, mancers, and monks can finish the units. They've a weapon that is useful for damaging an enemy, and as such they can widdle away until other units arrive. Also freedmen opperate with roundshields very well. Freedmen can poison an enemy then hide behind the roundshield. This alone makes roundshields a problem because the enemy will be getting weaker while failling to do much to the roundshield.

Qesican playstyle is about command and control. Command the enemy to be where you want them to be, and then control their lifespans once there.

Never fight the enemy where they want to - the scout is too useful for that. One's 'main army/fighting force' does not need to be fighting over villages, when scouts can simply go around the enemy and capture the ones out of reach. The main fighting force is useful for taking out other units by isolating them, - or for driving directly toward the enemy king.

On the defense, roundshields take a long time to kill. So leaving one in decent terrain is a great way to sacrifice a single 15 gold unit to regroup and remuster a good fighting force.

I hope this helps and thanks for comments. KEEP THEM COMING!

I need all the playtesters out there to report in with their feelings and thoughts as much as possible.

Thanks again!
-Qes

[Qes]

updated to version .53b

-Archalchemists now have AMLA tough 3

-fixed addon icon bug ( no more origional art)

-Qes

[Velensk]

The reason I olny tried them vs Knalgans is because when I downloaded them of the 1.3.7 addons page it said EE + Ques however the olny two factions I found were the Knaglans and the Ques.
I played around a little more and I did manage to beat myself (although with heavily lop-sided luck).
More comments
-I personaly beleive dread is a much more usefull ability than first-strike
-From what I've observed Knalgans tend not to have a reason to come out and attack unless they are sure they can win, and I fail to see how the Ques can attack effectivly without allowing fighting close to villages. So either both sides stare each other down while the ques save income on freemen or the knalgans attack when they think they can win (and a good player can be pretty good at making those judgments). Note this is olny 5 games against the same person speaking.
-I am personaly against being weird for the sake of being weird however this faction seems to be weird in a way that makes an interesting tactical situation
- I disagree with your standard approuches to winning or at the very least the 3 catagories you listed, for example I would classify my approuch with a few factors: turtling, oppertunism, pinning/disection, are some of the main ones.
-This faction seems to lack a water unit though I might have missed it

I don't know how you think to command your enemy, for in my observation the olny ways to do that are to bait them, or to threaten them with something worse.

EDIT: I'm going to attach a replay of one my games, this is not the best replay I could come up with since I definatly was not playing my best I made many mistakes not includeing a bunch of misclicks but anyway at one pont the ques had a huge army advantage including some of their (nasty) lvled up units so I tried to attack but somehow it just was not enough to overwhelm the knalgans.

[Weeksy]

Quescians save income on freemen, then would press an assault, starting with multiple freemen going in and stabbity stabbing at some points, to poison something and force it to retreat or become fodder... and that would be their gamble, and if they pulled it off right they would have a chance at winning, if not the knalgans would win.

[Qes]

The reason I olny tried them vs Knalgans is because when I downloaded them of the 1.3.7 addons page it said EE + Ques however the olny two factions I found were the Knaglans and the Ques.
I played around a little more and I did manage to beat myself (although with heavily lop-sided luck).
More comments
-I personaly beleive dread is a much more usefull ability than first-strike
-From what I've observed Knalgans tend not to have a reason to come out and attack unless they are sure they can win, and I fail to see how the Ques can attack effectivly without allowing fighting close to villages. So either both sides stare each other down while the ques save income on freemen or the knalgans attack when they think they can win (and a good player can be pretty good at making those judgments). Note this is olny 5 games against the same person speaking.
-I am personaly against being weird for the sake of being weird however this faction seems to be weird in a way that makes an interesting tactical situation
- I disagree with your standard approuches to winning or at the very least the 3 catagories you listed, for example I would classify my approuch with a few factors: turtling, oppertunism, pinning/disection, are some of the main ones.
-This faction seems to lack a water unit though I might have missed it

I don't know how you think to command your enemy, for in my observation the olny ways to do that are to bait them, or to threaten them with something worse.

EDIT: I'm going to attach a replay of one my games, this is not the best replay I could come up with since I definatly was not playing my best I made many mistakes not includeing a bunch of misclicks but anyway at one pont the ques had a huge army advantage including some of their (nasty) lvled up units so I tried to attack but somehow it just was not enough to overwhelm the knalgans.

Well they are a work in progress, i appreciate your detailed analysis.

If you have any suggestions, my ears are always open. I dont really care much about specifics so long as the idea of the Qesicans remains the same.

They're meant to be quick-leveling adaptive folk who use cunning and C&C to win battles instead of either brute force or turtling/attrition.

-Qes

[Qes]

Quescians save income on freemen, then would press an assault, starting with multiple freemen going in and stabbity stabbing at some points, to poison something and force it to retreat or become fodder... and that would be their gamble, and if they pulled it off right they would have a chance at winning, if not the knalgans would win.

A combination of freedmen and ballista are a sight to behold. As attacking the cheap freedmen risks poisoning of several units, perhaps costing one more than whatever the Qesican's payed for in freedmen, while ballista offer sheer offensive power.

I've seen "ballista" spam work very well. Mancers and freemen also work well together.
-Qes

[eyu100]

Quescians save income on freemen, then would press an assault, starting with multiple freemen going in and stabbity stabbing at some points, to poison something and force it to retreat or become fodder... and that would be their gamble, and if they pulled it off right they would have a chance at winning, if not the knalgans would win.

A combination of freedmen and ballista are a sight to behold. As attacking the cheap freedmen risks poisoning of several units, perhaps costing one more than whatever the Qesican's payed for in freedmen, while ballista offer sheer offensive power.

I've seen "ballista" spam work very well. Mancers and freemen also work well together.
-Qes

Qes - can you come on the serer and playtest?

[Velensk]

Spamming balista sound allot like spamming dark adepts except not as deadly and slightly cheaper. Maybe if you choose some other unit to pair it with than freedman I'd beleive you. I think that you should realy play test what you are saying vs a very good player over at least 3 games.

[Qes]

Spamming balista sound allot like spamming dark adepts except not as deadly and slightly cheaper. Maybe if you choose some other unit to pair it with than freedman I'd beleive you. I think that you should realy play test what you are saying vs a very good player over at least 3 games.

I have actually done this and I am not the inventor of the ballista-spam. That tactic was used AGAINST me instead of me using it against a foe. It was...quite effective.

Really placement seems to be more than key, but integral to the Qesicans.

I do want to play test some more - I appologize for not being on more and doing more playtesting, I know the Qesicans arnt at "balanced" yet but they're getting ever closer.

As it is I've been putting all my energies into the Vorpal Tide. Unlike the creative freedom I felt with the Qesicans, most of my endevors in the Tide involve massive amounts of grunt code work.

So far acheiving the technical aims for the basic concept for them has been all-consuming. But i've finished their "dynamic" line and all I have left is to finish their static line of coding.

Then, after that essential grunt work is completed, i feel the thread may come to life on it's own, having others find art and story for them.

And i can return to my precious if not precocious Qesicans.

I'm glad people are liking it enough to bring their concerns here though!

Let me give an idea of establishing a working language for us to use when discussing the Qesicans and their needs.

Please format your thoughts (if convenient) into single statments that can be repeated and comprehended.

Really, just state what the thought is, what the thought is about, and what solutions or ideas might be useful to remedy or enhance the situation.

This is what you essentially did in your post above - which I found to be a marvelous insight.

Perhaps it is all the code running around in my head, but for now I think I wanna keep things at least mildly orderly - which is nothing like the post I am writing right now. However, my next post will be a full example, and some of my current thoughts on the Qesicans.

-Qes

[Qes]

Concerns:
-Qesicans have "too" steep a learning curve and people are put off by the seeming lack of "normal" unit behavior.

+Solutions: None come to mind


-The overuse of "special abilities" may make the Qesican's prone to RNG failures and boons more so than other factions. RNG dependancy for victory is a bad thing.

+Solutions: none that come to mind.


+Perhaps I should add two level fours to the Qesican Lines, since "leveling" is their main "thing." I was thinking perhaps one in the mancer line, and the other being the Monk line. Beyond Master Monk would approach divinity or some sort of aethereal aspect.


-Qesicans still, despite improvements to monks, lack a reliable source of penetrating damage power. Ballista non-with-standing.

+This could merely be tacitcal error and misuse of Qesican units, or, simply the inability to adjust to playstyle. Or, I could introduce some sort of bladed, higher-damage melee unit of a more standard sort, but then I'd have A) a hard time justifying which caste it belonged to (for story, which is paramount) and B) it'd ruin the idea that Qesicans refuse to face their opponants in conventional ways - as convention leads to predictability, and predictability means easy defeat. Predcitability is an enemy of the Qesicans. (Hence their seeming pension for randomness)

-Qesicans Units are too expensive to play the type of war-style that I designed them for

+Cheapen the units


-Individual Qesican units are "SO DAMN POWERFUL AND UBER" that they unbalance the game potentially

+More playtests are needed before I reach this conclusion, right now I'm hearing about 50% of people say their underpowered, and the other 50% say their overpowered. This leads me to believe that they're close to some sort of equilibrium.


Anyway, Have at them!
-Qes

[Velensk]

Spamming balista sound allot like spamming dark adepts except not as deadly and slightly cheaper. Maybe if you choose some other unit to pair it with than freedman I'd beleive you. I think that you should realy play test what you are saying vs a very good player over at least 3 games.

I have actually done this and I am not the inventor of the ballista-spam. That tactic was used AGAINST me instead of me using it against a foe. It was...quite effective.
-Qes

If you were playing as the ques when they ballista spammed you then I am not surprised it worked. However it seems to me that any other faction with a standard melle unit could kill or almost kill a balista in 3 hits(a chargin horseman at day could manage it in 1). Even when the balista is in cover this is not terribly hard to acheive. Freedmen are an ingeinius idea however they would also die quickly to any unit with decent damage, They may get posioned in the exchange however it is olny 8 damage a turn which is unlikely to stop their personal damage dealing potential.

I am going to propose a suggestion that I don't think will change the faction. I would propose that you have a special kind of monk/pcycic that manipulates water.
In specifics I would probably impliment it this way. (It is off course your faction and such completely up to your interpretation)
-6mp 1 mp through water
-fairly fragile
-60% defence in water, standard human defences everywhere else
-melle attack (maybe with blade damage)minor damage w/backstab
-weak ranged impact attack
-costs about 15

>A unit that fights and moves well in the water and decently on land (without flying) is unconventinal.
>Is frail everywhere but water/village/mountain maintaining positional theme
>backstab maintains ability theme in a way that makes for an interesting tacical situaiton
>adds a water unit

[Qes]

I have actually done this and I am not the inventor of the ballista-spam. That tactic was used AGAINST me instead of me using it against a foe. It was...quite effective.
-Qes

If you were playing as the ques when they ballista spammed you then I am not surprised it worked.

I wasnt, I was playing as the northeners. When someone else plays the Qesicans I usually dont, to fieldtest them and see how they work against the various factions.

However it seems to me that any other faction with a standard melle unit could kill or almost kill a balista in 3 hits(a chargin horseman at day could manage it in 1). Even when the balista is in cover this is not terribly hard to acheive. Freedmen are an ingeinius idea however they would also die quickly to any unit with decent damage, They may get posioned in the exchange however it is olny 8 damage a turn which is unlikely to stop their personal damage dealing potential.

Caeb himself is very good at protecting the Ballista. It's all about making sure that people dont/cant reach them. He used a monk, a scout, and I think a roundshield effectively to protect som 4-5 ballista. THe idea being that I could attack either the scout, the roundshield or the monk, but then id have 4 ballista swarm down on to me. Being the "Second" to attack with goodly support is always beneficial.

I am going to propose a suggestion that I don't think will change the faction. I would propose that you have a special kind of monk/pcycic that manipulates water.
In specifics I would probably impliment it this way. (It is off course your faction and such completely up to your interpretation)
-6mp 1 mp through water
-fairly fragile
-60% defence in water, standard human defences everywhere else
-melle attack (maybe with blade damage)minor damage w/backstab
-weak ranged impact attack
-costs about 15

>A unit that fights and moves well in the water and decently on land (without flying) is unconventinal.
>Is frail everywhere but water/village/mountain maintaining positional theme
>backstab maintains ability theme in a way that makes for an interesting tacical situaiton
>adds a water unit

Hmmm. I know that people have been saying there's a need for a water/air unit in the qesicans, but I'd figured that the scout made up for any/all mobility needs. Some sort of "water-walker" might make for an interesting unit - but what caste would it be in? It'd not be that hard, i guess, to make them a Daikan unit. And make water-understanding something about the spirit.

But, backstab throws me off a bit. The reason being that I generally wanted to keep units tied off and have abilities be accessable via various paths. Thus, if you need backstab, start making scouts, etc.

Perhaps the water-walker could have some other ability, but what i'm not sure.

-Qes

[thespaceinvader]

Abilities that would be useful in water... Something to get by defenses - most water units have 50% or better defense on water terrain, which makes water-based fights long, boring and attritional. Giving them an ability such as Marksman or Magical on their attacks (maybe only in water) would maybe add an interesting flavour?