SXRPG Version 7.7.60 -- 1.18 Server

[Skyend]

I think the - 25% intial and - 25% on multiple buy is better.
It's really hard to get a 2nd weapon even slighly upgraded.

I don't think it will be too strong

[Mabuse]

I think the - 25% intial and - 25% on multiple buy is better.
I don't think it will be too strong

but it will be stronger than the rogue already is initially.
considering the rogue is chosen in group play because of its initial advantage (= extra strike)

so this approach (not nessessarily bad) would require to make extra strike an ability for 100 gold.
(also we ditch refill on blue and attack-spell bc of OPness)

because it may be if you go upgrade heavy initially that you end up being better than "normal" heroes, while having dual-range AND extra strike
so we need a nerf here to prevent rogue making all other classes obsolete.

also i think we make it a 3 stage set:

-25% at start
-25% second row
-25% third row


Math:
normal hero goes full upgrade (800 gold) + 2 Strikes (400 gold) = 1200
rogue goes goes full upgrade (600 gold (-25%)) + 2 Strikes (500 gold (+25%)) = 1100
(extra strike cost 100 gold) = 1200

so this could make rogue very good in the beginning being on par strenghwise with other heroes while having +dual+extra strike
so its almost OP (also considering that weapon specials will be extremely beneficial initially), only penalty is -1 ability point effectively

then its goin south a bit until you get 2nd weapon, after that you are almost on par again, +dual+extra strike

than its again going south, but your upgrades cost only 400g for a full set instead of 800g.

Rogue has to do some math now, at certain point, he can chose to upgrade another weapon
e.g. "60 - 15" to "64 - 16" for 500 which is an increment of 13% strengh
or he FU another weapon for 337, and may profit from enemy weakness, which are often 20% swings
(so against certain enemies he may end up 20% stronger instead of brute forcing +13% strengh)

getting a 3rd weapon will save him 1000 gold of upgrade costs
getting a 4rd weapon will save him 1500 gold of upgrade costs

so rogue will be also much better dealing with changing situations, enemy variations.

all at the cost of 1 ability point.

in reality it is often the case though that upgrade dont cost 800 gold, instead like 650, so its a bit more diverse.

but with this, the rogue class will be very good, however we can try it and nerf it, if it is too overwhelming.

[Mabuse]

but i made up my mind

we get rid of "extra-strike" completely,
will completely be discarded for rogue class as it just unbalances the game, it was fun while it lasted,

instead, progression of price-increase for damage+strikes is slowed down for rogues (to a certain point that is calculated), so that they even out
in late game again.

so rogues will be a class with cheap weapon specials, thus being more versatile on ranged+melee, initially more expensive damage+strikes,
but with reduced price-progression until they are even in cost around a certain treshold that is calculated for 4 FU-weapons

we will see how this one turns out

[Skyend]

Meanwhile I won chapter V on easy.

With a both ranged and melee focused ranger. I found the onrush lance that I gave slow (sadly no magical aviable).
I just wonder why u can buy both dmg/strikes for ranger so I at least tried to make something work.

It wasn't 100% trash in defense I was able to take out some charge units, but without magical and some low ground exceptions it felt short.

Interesting that ranged only dmg cost price didn't increase?

Anyways, it's way to expensive (that why I played on easy + 1000g) and unreliable, u need to find the onrush lance I also got the shield of defleciton (lategame item). But you can't bank on finding those. Also without melee special upgrades they felt short.

So yeah you can theoreticla play ranger as a worse rogue.

[Skyend]

Sadly, I loved extra strike.
Rogue just buyed slow weapons shield and maybe net too. This why they have a selfmade slow while they can still attack.
Or you slow 2 opponets while you take them down of defense.

rip I guess, now rogue will also become a brute force unit

[Mabuse]

i finished the calcs for the rogue setup.

plan is cheaper upgrades
1) -25%
2) -25%
3) -25%
4) no more change

assuming 800 gold for full upgraded weapon we have costs of 1) 600 2) 450 3) 338 4) 338 (total 1726) for 4 FU Weapons
normal cost for 4x FU weapons 3200.
Difference is 1474.

While Damage+Strike Prices will increase for non-rogue classes.

For Rogue Class Strike will never increase in Price.
Damage willl only increase if Damage is higher than 104, (effectively at 112 then).

the max difference will be 1475 and will be constant from that point on.
different gameplay will show wether the rogue can utilze his increased versatility

[Mabuse]

rip I guess, now rogue will also become a brute force unit

a dual wielding brute force unit, also it can easier go FU for 1st weapon, can easier react on changes, and will suffer no late game surprises
can tank all ranges, can easier utilze found weapons (slow will be very cheap)

etc
if you want xtra attack, get the attack spell,

maybe we give rogue attackspell bonus, so its cheaper

[Mabuse]

Meanwhile I won chapter V on easy.

With a both ranged and melee focused ranger. I found the onrush lance that I gave slow (sadly no magical aviable).
I just wonder why u can buy both dmg/strikes for ranger so I at least tried to make something work.

It wasn't 100% trash in defense I was able to take out some charge units, but without magical and some low ground exceptions it felt short.

Interesting that ranged only dmg cost price didn't increase?

Anyways, it's way to expensive (that why I played on easy + 1000g) and unreliable, u need to find the onrush lance I also got the shield of defleciton (lategame item). But you can't bank on finding those. Also without melee special upgrades they felt short.

So yeah you can theoreticla play ranger as a worse rogue.

chapter 5 is somewhat brutal, i also failed with ranger (silver mage, random selection) in the last days, i think cleric could do well.
however, now i finish changes for rogue.

and will test it.

[Skyend]

I guess with attack spell becomes interesting now.
While it wasn't good before with your lower dmg and still only mono weapon focused (cause upgrading is too expensive).
Less dmg means less stamina to pay for extra attack too, but with more weapons u end up dealing good dmg too with either lower resi or u can prevent slow/dreadful (sometimes).

[Mabuse]

there will be some changes regarding the upgrade cost for rogues

due to the method which is used for cost reduction (upgrades get sorted in groups of their dominant special effect, e.g. charge is a damage special, focus is a damage special) and by buying an upgrade of a certain group, the cost for that group is reduced by 25% (up to 2x reduction on top of the initial 25% reduction)

due to this buying cheaper upgrades e.g. "critical hit" for 75 gold first is beneficial, because it will reduce cost of focus also.

e.g. buy "critical hit" first for 57 gold (rogue base cost), will reduce "focus" to 113 gold (150 rogue base cost) = 170 total.
otherwise around buy "focus" first for 150 gold (rogue base cost), will reduce "critical hit" to 43 gold (57 rogue base cost) = 193 total.

"magical" and "magic circle" even more extreme swings depending on buying order.

so while we could keep this, it would be too complicated to understand why some rogues will perform better than others simply by order they get their upgrades, and it will be a hazzle to keep track of this, so the costs of the upgrades get a bit adjusted toward each other and modified, so we end up having the different prices while keeping the total combo costs at the same level to minimize this effect.

(it ill be still there for a certain extent but a lot reduced.) so if you go total min/max you can still get some bucks out of it in the long run (for probably temporarily increased cost), you can in most cases simply forget about it.

so e.g. yes, you may buy "critical hit" for some random melee weapon for 94 bucks (new rogue base price) first, to reduce focus for 113 gold (new rogue base price) to 85 gold for your main weapon, to save 5gold in long run (difference 94+85 (get critical hit first, focus second) compared to 113+71 (focus first, critical hit second), but at that moment you will be stuck with a useless critical hit and 94 less gold. so you may better simply buy focus and forget about that and use the amount for not yet needed critical hit on additional damage

----------

e.g.

most obvious change for example is "melee slow" 350 and "ranged slow" 300 gold, will be both 325, so it dosent matter if you buy slow for melee or ranged first.

ofc since that means melee combos become cheaper, but again example above "critical hit"and "focus", while focus get cheaper, critical hit gets more expensive so combos end up at roughly same prices. (it will change dynamics at which critical hit get relevant though, but its fair, since rogue damage is more expensive anyways)

[Mabuse]

Meanwhile I won chapter V on easy.

With a both ranged and melee focused ranger. I found the onrush lance that I gave slow (sadly no magical aviable).

Anyways, it's way to expensive (that why I played on easy + 1000g) and unreliable, u need to find the onrush lance I also got the shield of defleciton (lategame item). But you can't bank on finding those. Also without melee special upgrades they felt short.

So yeah you can theoreticla play ranger as a worse rogue.

i see. i decided also to reduce the cost of both_strike and both_damage upgrade to 62 for damage and 237 for strikes.
(the cost will increase though, in opposition to rogues damage/strike)

this way you can more easily set up a hybrid build using brawler trait (or as tank)
for ranger+mage (so you may be able to tank reaper ghosts in early game e.g.)

which opens up quite a bunch of possibilities

i tested it against the new rogue and up to a certain point it can keep on par, but mid to long run the rogue will be better using dual wield ofc.

also magical special may be allowed

-----------

i also decided that "hunter"trait for warrior is complete bogus, so we get rid of it, and instead put in a ROBUST trait that increases HP by +35HP
which is in gold terms about 200 (for warrior cost), its more than 150 gold for +3 damage,

but since HP dont kill enemies and HP is usually not increased until late game, its not considered OP

its usecase is boost weak HP-heroes like ghost for example.

like scout-trait is used on weak movement heroes

all other stuff like "adding slow" wil be cancelled.
warrior will be like "use net or die", and you can sell all your ranged stuff

--------

rogue-mage will get magestaff as item instead of amber amulett, to boost attack spells (and thus get cheaper attack spell)
(it will keep its +20% movement class bonus)

-------


so the update will come with advanced classes.

the newly set up rogue, advanced hybrid build for ranger/mage, and robust trait for warrior
will bring more options to set up the best suitable hero.

[Mabuse]

i see. i decided also to reduce the cost of both_strike and both_damage upgrade to 62 for damage and 237 for strikes.
(the cost will increase though, in opposition to rogues damage/strike)

this way you can more easily set up a hybrid build using brawler trait (or as tank)
for ranger+mage (so you may be able to tank reaper ghosts in early game e.g.)

which opens up quite a bunch of possibilities

i tested it against the new rogue and up to a certain point it can keep on par, but mid to long run the rogue will be better using dual wield ofc.

also magical special may be allowed

brawler trait needs to recieve a nerf though

initially it was thought as a nerdy option, that is anyway more a waste of money than anything else, because the both_damage and both_strike option were too expensive to be seriously considered, also lack of magical

however, with the actual cost reduction AND the bonus that comes with brawler (2x melee strikes (approx 237 gold) and slow upgrade reduced by 250 gold (worth 250 gold) = 500 gold total) it may be sustainable for a while,

problem is, the whopping 500 gold brawler trait wil make it OP in comparison to "teh real" dual wielder, which is rogue now

so brawler trait is nerfed to +1 strike (119 gold) and reduced slow cost (250 gold) while also allowing to add magical now

[Skyend]

Nice I love it, so if you find the onrush lance u can play melee offensivly, but if not it's still nice defensivly.
That can help with charge and ulf units. While the torch is enough against the flys on chapter 2,there are others too.
Or if you actilly can't finish an enemy in 1 turn.

I found liking incthis hybrid rogue style for ranger, in most cases mono focuse brute force will probably still be the best, but maybe it's a real option now.

Also looking forward to play the real thing, rogue warrior.
Also I haven't played rogue mages forever, but always consider it as strong, but this is from my experienced when blessing gave +2 mana whenever u hit.

[Skyend]

I just realzied a bug or so.

You gave ranger + 25% movement cost reduction, therfore it cost 20 mana for 1 mp, same as mage. However, ranger can buy the movement upgrade with another 20% cost reduction while mage/rogue mage will only get the + 1 mp after kill out of it.

[Mabuse]

I just realzied a bug or so.

You gave ranger + 25% movement cost reduction, therfore it cost 20 mana for 1 mp, same as mage. However, ranger can buy the movement upgrade with another 20% cost reduction while mage/rogue mage will only get the + 1 mp after kill out of it.

its intentional

also the description for mage (or cleric) says that it will only increase killmoves
(or better said, it doesent say that it will reduce magic movement cost)

that is, so that all classes get 16 movemtn cost AFTER spending 2 ability points on killmoves,
all classes except ranger, which is more mobile