SXRPG Version 7.7.60 -- 1.18 Server

[Mabuse]

im open though for another CAP reduction of FIRE/ARACANE default weapons

so what make sylph and inferno and great mage so useful and strong is because their main weapons are arcane/fire which is something different than impact 26-2, because fire/arcane is the first weapon to upgrade

so i think we can tone it down by another -1 or -2 damage.
(-2 for magical, -1 for non magical)

this will be done in next version, maybe even fast, to get rid of the balancing issue.

magical fire/arcane would then be cap at 12-4 / 8-5
normal fire arcane at: 13-4, 9-5, 5-6

[Skyend]

Well slyph is better than elvish lord in every aspect but hp and MaA is better than lord in every espect but ranged arcane weapon.
So it dosen't even matter.
I'm still playing that trash unit.
Sure you can do another reduciton, however with impact slow also 1 dmg below dmg cap, while slyph is better in every other aspect, idk.

Archer might be more atractive if pierce is a nice 2nd weapon, tho lord will always suck.

[Skyend]

I mean you removed redundent units in the past and it's clerly redundent. But a nice skin.
Elvish Lady would sucks ass too, but I'd pick me.

[Mabuse]

7.7.35 reduced fire/arcane cap by -1 damage (so its 13-4, 9-5 ...)

well about lord the idea is probably he maybe useful for rogue-class, with its balanced melee/ranged setup
what do you think?

[Skyend]

I've always played it as rogue warroir.
Balanced melee/ranged? It's melee blade is 1dmg better than the shop one. You should sell it and buy, a more useful dmg type for the specific map. (I think balde is good in chapter V)

The ranged arcane is strong, but as said slyph is better there.

A good rogue warrior has good terrain def and hp, both speaks for elvish lord. But again both Master at Arms and Sylph are better there.
The strengh of a rogue warroir is that it deals big dmg on def against melee amd ranged. There going for high hp with regen is pretty good. (Better than dauntless and resi upgrades, still 30% arcane for chapter V)

So yeah it's ass in compare, but maybe a ok (enough) rogue warroir on a forest map.
Note: I can't win in solo with it at chapter V, and we didn't made it past turn 30 with 2p yet.

However, rogue warroir is difficult and even better with more players, there it's extra attack has a bigger impact in compare, also it's hard to kill all the bosses on your own.

[Mabuse]

in next version i will make all interior-obstacle hill/forest base, so elves can also have better dodge, as they are now a bit disadvantaged
(may lead to oos though, for old records)


as for making human lawful i hesitate a bit atm, since it means 100% oos for old versions, also it may be pointless if we spare the biggies
and after all we may try to give chaotic some more goodies, its still +25% better fighting, but when enemy is strong

so we need a way to make it more attractive, maybe we add some sort of feeding or gold-bonus for undead minions
(e.g. if undead minions kill enemy +1HP for player, if outlaw kills enemy +2 gold to player)
and maybe other boni as well.

also we could restrict demon-summoning for lawful heroes

will come in next version, also acolythe will come for mercs (and demon alternative)


so chaotic may be good for some sort of necromancer/summoner style

[Skyend]

I haven't figured it out how to win with rogue-warrior, well I did it at one point also chapter V, but that was before projectiles in a 3p group and maybe only Grandmaster?

Tbh u end up playing a a worse ranger or warrior till you die, since there is no way you'll reach mid-end game. I never was able to upgrade a 2nd weapon.
Interesting now I try ranger and reached more in turn 12 than I did with rogue-warrior in turn 20-30 (that's also when you die).

But I enjoyed the mixed fighter style. For Range I try brawler, and some both dmg upgrades - but that is super expensive. For Range it's 75g and even rogue-warrior felt too much.

I wished rogue-warrior would get some bonus/reduction on weapon upgrades. One that will reduce the cost of upgrades (or chashback), increasingly depending on how much you've payed on upgrades on that game this far. I think rogue-warrior want's 2-3 weapons while other classes will have 1-2 and on some maps 3 weapons.

But also both dmg/and strikes needs to be reduced a bit Imho, also for other classes.

@Mabuse do you have any success with rogue-warrior?

[Mabuse]

@Mabuse do you have any success with rogue-warrior?

i didnt master any of the rogue classes yet
however, its pretty popular in group play though (i heard)

as usual there is no balancing against unconstested-difficulty, and so it may be completely unplayable for rogue-class
a proof that it is playable would have to be made in grandmaster then


about chapter 5 its again all about getting the gold-chests asasp.
to find out the right route/oder to get the gold chests, with the least resistance.
also it includes some kind of luring the ancient ghost away, to get cornocopia and an attack item.

i will try to give an example game, with class and hero of choice but not rogue.
maybe i go random (anf then chose warrior/cleric or ranger/mage)

the only buff i can offer ATM for rogue class is that blue potion will refill EXTRA ATTACK ability, and attack-spell will also refill EXTRA ATTACK ability
(i had this in mind a while ago, but i remembered that it was cancelled bc rogue may be than OP, so i dont know fully if that would be a good idea, maybe only attack spell with fill up extra-attack)

[Skyend]

I know how to play chapter V. Lurde the Ghost a couple of times.
For Ranger it took me 13-14 turns to clear all the caves. (But 2x chest, and the vase)

I've experienced rogue-warroir too to be better in groups. Obviously because of the once per turn extra attack. But I say at what group size rogue-warroir will be good/good enough.

But I doubt it's 2p. So min 3 or more player or just never.

[Skyend]

Idk if refill is too strong. I think it's it's cool for blue potion, but extra I don't like.
This might be too much and force rogue classes to buy it.

I just wished mixed (meele/ranged) would be more supported. I find the idea cool to be a somewhat "rogue warrior" with my Ranger. I already use torch next to the shield. With brawler and both dmg buff I can deal nice dmg in def. Sadly no melee upgrades except for slow, but the lance item with onrush could be found. So maybe sometimes idk, this has at least potential to be cool. Just horrible bad supported. Don't tell me ppl go for both dmg or both strike (I can see this 1x with slow).

[Mabuse]

I just wished mixed (meele/ranged) would be more supported. I find the idea cool to be a somewhat "rogue warrior" with my Ranger.

yea. after a bit think about it i also think its the better way. i think your suggestion to make upgrades for follow up weapons a bit cheaper is actually a good idea. that refill thingy would not improve the handling/gameplay of the class.

[Mabuse]

about balance for rogues.

- obviously being able to do melee+ranged is better than being restricted to just one range
- extra strike ability is advantage
- damage and strikes are about +25% in price (which accumulates to 1650 more gold spend for late game (80-20 stat) up to 2500 in extremly late game (100-25)
- mid game it accumulates to 650 gold spend (40 - 10 stat)


- average upgrade cost is about 800 for a weapon, 25% of it is 200 gold

- upgrade cost for rogues get reduced to -25% you might have some compensation, even an advantage in early game that has to be addressed
(you end up +/- 0, maybe even better if you go heavy on upgrades early, and be able to fight ranged+melee)
- upgrade cost for already purchased abilities will be reduced by another 25%
- you grade up about 2, max 3 weapons, as a rogue you might wanna have more (as you said)
(potencial for saved money on upgrades is 200 to 900) (for two upgraded weapons (mid game it would be 400 to 550, so almost the same that you pay more for weapon power)
- shop weapons will be cheaper (if they have upgrade like magical)

Extra Strike
- extra strike will be made an ability for rogues (for 100 bucks)
(this is to nullify possible early advantage, but you can also renounce on extra strike and go attack spell or whatever)
- blue potion + attack spell will refill extra strike
- alternatively we get rid of the extra strike completely.

[Skyend]

I love extra strike, that belongs to rogue. I don't see why that should be removed.

Again I'm not a fan of refilling it with extra attack, but blue potion is nice.
I'd make dmg/strikes 20% more expensive and 25% for others classes, I really wanna see a playable option there.

But ig sounds nice. It's pretty cool if this allows you to aford upgrading 2x amplifire early having meele and ranged (first turn and actully before u died)

[Mabuse]

I love extra strike, that belongs to rogue. I don't see why that should be removed.

yes, it would also cause too much confusion, so rogue class will lose 1 ability point instead

Again I'm not a fan of refilling it with extra attack, but blue potion is nice.

ok, refill on blue potion

I'd make dmg/strikes 20% more expensive and 25% for others classes, I really wanna see a playable option there.

i dont know exactly what you mean by this

But ig sounds nice. It's pretty cool if this allows you to aford upgrading 2x amplifire early having meele and ranged (first turn and actully before u died)

so we go the route upgrades -25% cheaper, and another -25% if you bought that upgrade already (2nd or 3rd weapon).
as compensation rogue lose 1 ability point

this would also make rogue be very versatile, the idea would be to utilize enemy weakness due to having three weapons over brute forcing
i would almost say that fire/cold/(balde/impact/pierce) would be in most cases the best choice for rogue then


the next thing i want to work at is temple of bones revisited

[Mabuse]

so we go the route upgrades -25% cheaper, and another -25% if you bought that upgrade already (2nd or 3rd weapon).
as compensation rogue lose 1 ability point

we will make a slightly different approach.

the FIRST upgrades of each class (damage, cth, slow, strikes etc)
will cost 100% of price, all that follows will cost 50%

eg. your first circle will cost 300 gold, after that you pay 50% for all other cth specials

possible "cheat" is you buy magical first for 100, then circle (also cth special) will cost 150, so that make 250 in total
(for the first circle)

so you saved 50 bucks, but that doesnt matter for now or we increase price to 150 for magical ranged for rogue
all other cases would be good.

with this aproach we make it more versatile, while keeping price high for initial upgrades so rogue isnt OP in beginning
(we may also renounce on refill extra strike on blue)