SXRPG Version 7.7.2 -- 1.18 Server

[Mabuse]

one last note on the "IMBA" discussion:


1)
there is simply no balance between the units of the ERA. thats it.
this is the same as in wesnoth, you cannot balance units against each other but mere factions
this is always a part of wesnoth and a significant even of SX, to find strong units that support your play.
because of the structure of the game, some units, races will be better (in SX) than others.

things to look out for

- mobility
- default weapon
- resistances
- HP
- Abilities
- setup friendlyness

the more of these factors a unit has, the better it is.



2) in SX everything is considered balanced as long it doesent break the game
(definition of "break the game" = you can do whatever you want and cannot die)


3) the ONLY unit you can arguably say is OP is Sylph
but this unit was capped by damage, still its better in several aspects
and thus OP, but the fact that someone can speedrun cantar with it, does not prove the point that it breaks the game.
play chapter 6 with sylph and you'll see.

The deciding factor, why we could agree on taking out the sylph is:
the enchantress COULD work in SX, so there is a possibility to reduce the slyph
(great mage and marshall dont have this option)


4)
a "competitive" era will not make the game better, it simply takes choices away.

other units:

great mage? not op. if you replace it with archmage you simply dont take it anymore, archmage sucks, its weaker than silver and infernodrake on every scale

silvermage with way higher higher resists and +1 ability is better than archmage on every scale

infernodrake is already better than great mage right now, the only advantage of great mage is perhaps that is it a little bit more easy to setup.
inferno is more mobile, has 110 points base resist (great mage has 40), an equally strong weapon (with more strikes = better circle, better blessing). and a [censored] of more HP. so .. why would you even play great mage, if you can play inferno? this si just for choice, but objectively infernodrake is better. (ok, inferno need maybe ability to set up, so it has less abilities than great mage)


so nothing changes if you take great mage out of the game. i play inferno anyways. its simple as that.
simply because it is so much better already. and inferno is lvl 3

marshall ? not op, if you make it general, it starts to stink and DWARVES or Troll will be 100% the better choice for warrior or cleric.
(bc fearless is not that mega advantage anyways, and marshall is good bc of distribution of resists and 6moves and hp that dosent stink to much, compared to drakes, the ability is just a slight benefit)

so you just dont take it anymore. all you take away is CHOICE.
nobody really cares if marshall is in the era or not, or great mage, because i can simply take a dwarf or a troll go for it.
or a drake or whatever.

then we all run around with dwarves and drakes and it starts to stink.
so we better not take the good units away, but to look for ways to make other units more attractive, e.g. undead.

all you take away is CHOICE.



5) XYZ class is OP because of items you find? no, thats problem of items (and they got reduced a bit, which i can agree with)
because of that potencial of armor that can be found by items was reduced

SX is anyway full of items that can turn a game, or make it a lot easier. its luck if you find an item or not.


so the intention of SXRPG is not to balance it at every level, because that is impossible, and if you try it it would take a [censored] of fun away.
the charme of SXRPG was always to play it with basic wesnoth units, you know and remember from the base game.
i really dont plan to make a special era for it and balance it all out.

if YOU want to do that, i would feature it, but you have to put the work into it, because my priorities would be perhaps find a big, already existing era, and find a way to make it playable in SX (as suggested by ravanna by raising the level to max or something), and then find the OP units in that era and use them. this is part of the fun. find op units and abuse them to beat the game.
(and if they break the game, i will try to change that)


but all this IMBA and balance topic is just an illusion, the ERA is IMBA, SX is probably IMBA, itemsystem is IMBA
bossspawn is IMBA

but despite all of this imbalances its still balanced in one or other way
so i all serioussness, i dont think the problem is the existence of great mage in the era.


we can talk about sylph and grade it down to enchantress.

[Skyend]

it's ok I only take op units amd classes going forward

[Mabuse]

it's ok I only take op units amd classes going forward

yes.

And now
Just Showcaseing
Inferno Drake Ranger Hail+Blessing build
Just the first 2 Turns (Turn 2 not finished !)
of TOB Speedrun

SXRPG Chapter IVTemple of Bones Showcase Inferno Drake HailBlessing Build.gz

(508.09 KiB) Downloaded 3 times

Inferno Drake:
------------------
Uncontested:
------------------

Class: Ranger
Align: Lawful
Trait: Dextrous


Terrain Training:
- Agility Ability
- Cave Traning
- 5x Movement

Armory:
Pierce to 0% (1x 10g)
Cold to 0% (2x10g)
Arcane to 0% (1x10g)
(alternatively, leave them as they are for first turns)

Item Shop:
- Backpack
(if you leave armor as it is you can take Ankh)

Weapon Store:
- Sell Melee
- buy Sling
- buy Shield

Weapn Specials:
- Precision for Fire Breath
- Blessing for Fire Breath
- Hail of Arrows for Fire Breath
- Slow for Fire Breath
(= Full Upgraded Fire Breath)

Enhancements:
- 8x Damage

Abilities:
- Lightfoot



Planned to buy Abilities:
- attack spell
- daunt
- alchemy
- regen

so downfall of the build is obviously that you already have to use the extra ability to get regen, becasue you need to get agility to overcome the [censored] terrain defense of Inferne Drake


now actual situation is:

i have at MIDST turn 2 (its not over yet - right after killing leader6) 29-8 Fire Damage with 2 rounds of engemant and 80% CTH AND Slow
i can maybe pull of turn 3/4 leader kill on leader7, but on turn 8 its dead anyways.

so this is the thing to test hail+blessing build with.


and yet you worry about great mage
you take great mage if you dont wanna rock the map with inferno drake and give yourself a small handicap



----> and we remember you also took a DRAKE to prove that warrior is OP, you didnt take a saurian skirmisher or an orc to prove that.

[Mabuse]

as said im open for the idea of a balanced era.

- ideally units would feature strong and unique default weapons to distuingish them from each other
(else you can make a flat shell and let player add shop content)

- also there is a bunch of unit you'd never chose because they dont have any or bad resistances.


however, as im almost sure that i would not match your exspectations of a balanced era, i officially hand this task to you.

you can just copy the core(or whatever) units you want to have in the era, add SRPG at the end of ID field,
and make whatever corrections you want to have, and make it AMLA
(remember that all default weapons get +2/+1 damage)

boom. finished.
now we have a cool balanced era.

but: it will be some work, and i want to get my hand on the tournament thingy.
and then new map.

[Mabuse]

TOB Turn 3 leader6+7 dead.

SXRPG Chapter IVTemple of Bones Ranger showcase InfernoDrake Turn3 Leader67 kill.gz

(512.61 KiB) Downloaded 2 times

Inferno-Drake, Ranger, Hail+Blessing Build, Uncontested

now this is not a finished game, but with this early kill i have a solid foundation for good gold inflow
(so if there is a chance for this build to win, there is no better starting position)
and while the inferno drake is arguably OP in comparison to e.g. saurian flanker, there is still one thing thats holds true:

i still have to play the game and bad positioning will get me killed


and while im watching the replay i just realize i could have done so much better, i could have taken out so much more stuff before killing the leaders.
so this is even bad play. maybe even turn 1 is possible for 6+7.

[Skyend]

Agree, u still have to play the game out, I'm curious if you lose to blessing (not having focuse, less total dmg) even with a high base dmg units.
My run with warrior was my first try I didn't particular amed to win fast get fast lk or anything. Wasn't even sure what armor to build on, so I waited with that partly until I encounter the final units. To get my attention u need at least top that and kill the final boss arear in 1-2 turns.

Early lk means not too much, especially with a high base dmg unit, thats just another uneeded bonus for those, glad this is harder on real maps.

I can creat a balanced version without your order or premission, but I don't have to.

As said I played sxrpg a lot, so I rather play/do other stuff in the near future.

[Mabuse]

ah well, that replay isnt really important i did another try with a slightly altered build and i think a turn 2 kill is possible.
however, i agree that balancing the SXRPG ERA is kinda overdue, simply due to the fact that wesnoth units arent balanced unit fpr unit but also for faction,

- and ofc since we have more expensive and less expensive units in the era

- so there is a need to balance them out, because as you said, and i also think so, that it kinda sucks that you only take a unit other than the very best
(which would be inferno for ranged fire and syplph for ranged arcane for example) because you wanna give yourself a handicap.

- and lastly also, because i think a leader6+7 kill on TOB at turn 8 with shop weapons is possible, i also dont think we really need so extremely OP units like inferno drake, i think inferno is even stronger than sylph



a) so we need first to identify, why certain units are so OP, and why other are probably good but fall behind and then the rest which just sucks.

b) we want to keep the nature of a unit, and maybe dithc them towards a certain class, and identify what defines this class key features that can
be found in the units foundation

c)we would keep the classic era, but make a new balanced are, that 100% relies on the stats of old units but we may add (or nerf) certain aspects
for a better balance. but all balance would be centered to emphasize the current nature of the unit


so why do some units suck:

- because of low hit points
- missing resistances
- default weapon is weak
- weak mobility

for the same reason some units are OP

so i also want an era with more balance, and i think not much needed:
just slight buffs and nerfs and the situation would dratically improve while keeping the nature and the differences of the units intact

a set of resistances here
some less HP there
some less strike/damage

[Mabuse]

...

[Mabuse]

Balance Theory:
--------------------

1)
new HP formula
(HP x 2.06) + 11,4 round floor - ((HPxHP)x0.008 round ceil)

2)
additionally there will be a power penalty: taking into account that higher level units will get a penalty
(60 - (unit cost))/5 = HP penalty

e.g.
marshall HP68, cost 101
formula gives 114 HP
power penalty (60-101)/5 (round floor) = -8
HP = 106

sylph HP 68, cost 161
formula gives 114 HP
power penalty (60-161)/5 (round floor) = -20
HP = 94

saurian flanker HP54, cost 42
formula gives 98 HP
power penalty (60-42)/5 (round floor) = 3
HP = 101

(...)


3)
additionally there will be a terrain-defense penalty (taking into account that weak terrain def units usually get more HP in wesnoth, so we have to strip some of)

-terrains-defense are added up, average terrain defense is calculated/100
is checked against assumed average of 50%

(edit: there will be no bonus for having terrain defense > 50%)

e.g.
average terrain def is 40
(0.4 - 0.5) +1 = 0.9
HP x 0.9

this is to pay tribute to fact that terrain defense is usually balanced ingame due to getting more damage, but SX allow
to compensate via Ability, so there has to be some more penalty to reflect this


e.g.
average terrain def is 60
(0.5 - 0.6) +1 = 0.9
HP x 0.9

but you see also in case of high terrain defense the will be a penalty for, this is to represent the fact, that normally
this would have been compensated by resistances, but these are also nullified by system mostly. so this has to be also
shown in the HP instead.




4)

we also need to compensate for advanced mobility though
(taking into account that being able to fly can be a game-deciding factor)

so there need to be a mobility penalty
penalty for being able to cross unwalkable: 0.9 factor (another 10HP gone)


4.a)
also we need a BONUS for extraordinary WEAK mobility
(taking into account that extremely non mobile units have severe disadvanatge)

so while we have a terrain-training system, it is capped at the higher end
for every 1-2 points above cap, there is a +10% HP bonus

so summary:
- flying unit get -10% HP
- clumsy units (like shocktrooper) get HP bonus that will be calculated


-------------------------------

5)
(Damage need be adjusted to prevent too high distance from shop weapon)

damage caps will be centered toward 14-4
1-8+, 2-7, 6-6, 10-5, 14-4, 20-3, 26-2, 34-1

(we cant set it too low, because we want to emphasize and support strong default weapons)


5.)a)
weapons with 2 strikes recieve +1 damage
weapons with 1 strikes recieve +2 damage

(this is before cap is checked, so if weapon runs into cap with the given bonus,
it is also stripped away by cap)

to compensate for weak-strike weapons


----------------------------

6)
(resistances need to be adjusted because having none is a reason to ignore a unit completely)

resistances:

all positive resistances are added up
(10-resistances)/2 (round ceil)= value
(if value < 0 -> no effect)
else

value will be equaly distributed resistances among from top to bottom and repreat
on non-negative resistances

e.g. elves will have 10,10,10,10,10,-10 resistances then

fencer would have -20,-20,-20,20,20,20


----------------------------

7)
(undead are at a disadvantage because a deciding advantage was taken from them, also they usually suffer from non-optimal resistance distribution)

undead elementals, demons will gain free-regeneration ability to compensate loss of drain-resistance
(or we check against status undrainable before it is nullified)

EDIT: instead of regeneration, we give them FEARLESS TRAIT
if unit has fearless already it recieves STEADFAST.

-------------------------------------

so this will be all implemented into SX code, so we dont need new era, but these changes may allow us to put more units into the era,
because we auto raised the minimum resistance to 5 for example, so more units may be playable now



---------------

so the balance will aim for adjusting unit HP for the pro's and cons a Unit has which can quite change a units
HP, so e.g. inferno drake may end up with HP < 100, a 6-6 weapon

and due to his mobility and his still strong weapon it will be a good unit, but not the OP one we know from th actual era,

while unit like silver or white mage or saurian flanker wil recieve HP bonus and maybe resistance bonus (silver will not, bercaus it has good resists, but white and saurian will get some)

aslo undea with flat free-regen will be a considerable choice now, with their known weaknesses like bad mobility and not-optimal-resistances.

[Skyend]

Sounds good overall. But I don't know about the values (tho this must be tested).
2. not sure if that's needed (when u're flating all other stats to some extend)
4. how bad are Ghosts?, Is +-10% slightly to much?
6. maybe there is a better way, but it's fine

[Mabuse]

Sounds good overall. But I don't know about the values (tho this must be tested).
2. not sure if that's needed (when u're flating all other stats to some extend)

Not sure either. Sylph is in any way severely crippled to the point i ask myself if we do her a favor now and make her an enchantress
But she still flying and has a 10-5 defeqult arcane attack. just less HP
but she got armor now. so as a ranger she can get quick dauntless

4. how bad are Ghosts?, Is +-10% slightly to much?

ghost came out +4HP and have gained fearless. thats about it
flying penalty is -15% and i guess also some powerpenalty didnt allow the big gains

6. maybe there is a better way, but it's fine

its surprisingly refreshing, now many units can be brought to 20 all, which is cool

imo, now i have the feeling there are OP units everywhere.

also the fine mages - many HP.
astrologer ... playable now.


i tried my best to avoid it, but now Grand Knight is the powerhouse in HP with 160 (as warrior)
also shocktrooper has 150 now (as warrior)

it is because mounted has even worse movetype than shocktrooper. i compensated a lot, even put movement twice into the equation, but grandknight has also only 7 moves, and has extremely strong bas HP so he recieves some bonus.

Terrain defense was deleted as an option to influence HP, because it had to many weird results. e.g. wose ws punished hard, because its movetype isnt THAT bad, sono extreme handicap bonus

but i think many units are playable now, and even the worse ones can be tried.

[Mabuse]

so here is something to work with
or to check some units out.
potencial problems can be put here and we will see how to sort them out


e.g.
- grand mage, now down a few HP (due to power penalty) and down 2 damage (its really nothing you woudl now say its significantly weaker)
- silver mage, white mage, astrologer, all the feeble unit --> massive gains in HP to grand mage level +/- --> playable

- inferno drake, down to 115 HP
- sylph massive nerf in HP down to 84 HP or something

- shocktrooper massive gain in HP to 150 (warrior class)
- all mounted also gains in HP.

- resistance gain on many units elves, etc.

also give suggestions which unit should now be put into the era.





----------------------
Current Version:7.7.0
REBALANCE
Not compatible with 6.X.X Version
----------------------

7.7.0
------------

Rebalance:
--------------------
Overall balance to bring all units a bit more narrow.


1)
new HP formula
(HP x 2.06) + 11,4 round floor - ((HPxHP)x0.008 round ceil)

2)
additionally there will be a power penalty: taking into account that higher level units will get a penalty
(60 - (unit cost))/5 = HP penalty


4)
penalty for being able to cross unwalkable: 0.85 factor #15% HP loss


4.a)
also a BONUS for extraordinary WEAK mobility
(taking into account that extremely non mobile units have severe disadvanatge)
(shocktrooper, cavalry)


-------------------------------

5)
(Damage need be adjusted to prevent too high distance from shop weapon)

damage caps will be centered toward 14-4
1-8+, 2-7, 6-6, 10-5, 14-4, 20-3, 26-2, 34-1

(cant set it too low, because want to emphasize and support strong default weapons)


5.)a)
weapons with 2 strikes recieve +1 damage
weapons with 1 strikes recieve +2 damage

(this is before cap is checked, so if weapon runs into cap with the given bonus,
it is also stripped away by cap)

to compensate for weak-strike weapons

----------------------------

6)
(resistances need to be adjusted because having none is a reason to ignore a unit completely)

resistances:

all positive resistances are added up
(10-resistances)/2 (round ceil)= value
(if value < 0 -> no effect)
else

value will be equaly distributed resistances among from top to bottom and repreat
on non-negative resistances


----------------------------

7)
(undead are at a disadvantage because a deciding advantage was taken from them, also they usually suffer from non-optimal resistance distribution)

undead elementals, demons will gain FEARLESS TRAIT
if unit has fearless already it recieves STEADFAST.

-------------------------------------

[Mabuse]

----------------------
Current Version:7.7.1
REBALANCE
Not compatible with 6.X.X Version
----------------------

7.7.1
------------

Bugfix:
--------
Set Hitpoints at Start of Game

[Mabuse]

so there is another balancing version in the pipeline.

this time im more satisfied with it.
the former was too exagarated and made all units way too powerful
and created also a disbalance, which i needed to solve



the rebalance should also provide a challenge and not rise all units to OP level



- base formula as before

- power HP penalty as before (will reduce HP of high cost units accordingy)

- damage caps -2 damage (as before)

- undead get fearless, if fearless is already given it gives steadfast
(as before, but a bug was fixed, as it didnt work properly with deathknight)

- resistances are given more conservatively, with factor 2.5, rounded down
(this mean a unit with no resistances will get 4x Resistance), and accordingly
up to with 7 resistances given +1 resistance. at 8 base resists none will be given.


changes are HP system, it is now more mobility driven

- flyer -5% Hp flat
- all units recieve for every movement < 5 +2.5%HP
(= all units with 4 starting moves get +2.5% HP), units with weak mobility will be more sturdy

- all unit get -10% HP penalty flat out (flat out HP reduction)
- for each terrain training they recieve (indicator for weaker mobility)
they recieve +1.5% HP (up to 6 times, so 9% max)

(this results e.g. in flyers that have no terrain training recieve another -10% Hp (total of -15% as before)
but humans get 9% of their initial 10% penalty back
all other races get HP back according to their mobility)

if unit is even less mobile than that, it recieves another bonus, but movement will reduce this amount
drastically, may even nullify the additional bonus.


so this results in a more realistic but yet more balanced approach, high HP unit is now the underused SHOCKTROOPER
while all other units are placed somewhere where it fits "perfectly".
most of the mage units are now below 100hp,
but many higher than before.

the new resistances fit and do not seem exagarated, many new units are playable

so the new update will enhance underused units, reduce OP units
and should offer more possibilities and a challenge at the same time
(because the powerlevel of the strongest units got nerfed, while other get buffed)

version will be uploaded and then test with inferno will be made

[Mabuse]

----------------------
Current Version:7.7.2
BUGFIX+REBALANCE
Not compatible with 6.X.X Version
----------------------

7.7.2
------------

Bugfix:
--------
- death knight recieves STEADFAST

Rebalance:
-----------

To give an overview over the stat changes:

- in general damage cap: -2 damage (centrered 14-4)
- weapons with 2 strikes +1 damage (not over cap)
- weapons with 1 strikes +2 damage (not over cap)
- all undead fearless
- units with 0-7 base resistances recieved 4 to 1 additional resistances
- Charge special changes. Charge Special (along with other Damage Specials that weren changed otherwise)
get converted to +1 Strikes in current version this comes along with -2 damage.


Elves:
------------
Elvish Sylph, HP new: 81, HP old: 111 NERF NERF (CAP)
Elvish Shyde, HP new: 81, HP old: 83 BUFF (resistances)
Elvish Sharpshooter, HP new: 87, HP old: 77 BUFF (resistances)
Elvish High Lord, HP new: 102, HP old: 103 BUFF (resistances)
Ancient Wose, HP new: 136, HP old: 130

Independent:
------------------
Great Troll, HP new: 113, HP old: 130 NERF
Saurian Flanker, HP new: 95, HP old: 88 BUFF
Dread Bat, HP new: 64, HP old: 54 BUFF (resistances)


Drakes:
------------
Drake Enforcer, HP new: 123, HP old: 139 NERF
Drake Warden, HP new: 120, HP old: 134 NERF
Hurricane Drake, HP new: 89, HP old: 95
Inferno Drake, HP new: 108, HP old: 134 NERF NERF (CAP)
Drake Flameheart, HP new: 100, HP old: 117 NERF


Undead:
-------------
Nightgaunt, HP new: 60, HP old: 57 BUFF (fearless)
Spectre, HP new: 56, HP old: 54 BUFF (fearless)
Lich, HP new: 96, HP old: 98 BUFF (fearless)
Death Knight, HP new: 100, HP old: 103 BUFF (steadfast)
Ghast, HP new: 109, HP old: 106 BUFF (steadfast)


Dwarves:
----------------
Dwarvish Lord, HP new: 123, HP old: 121
Dwarvish Dragonguard, HP new: 114, HP old: 103 BUFF
Dwarvish Sentinel, HP new: 119, HP old: 111 BUFF
Dwarvish Explorer, HP new: 100, HP old: 98
Gryphon Master, HP new: 85, HP old: 83 BUFF (resistances)


Human infantry:
---------------------
Grand Marshall, HP new: 104, HP old: 111
Master at Arms, HP new: 101, HP old: 93 BUFF (resistances)
Iron Mauler, HP new: 143, HP old: 104 BUFF
Royal Warrior, HP new: 111, HP old: 104


Human cavalry:
---------------------
Cavalier, HP new: 108, HP old: 104
Grand Knight, HP new: 128, HP old: 137 NERF
Paladin, HP new: 116, HP old: 126 NERF


Human Mages:
--------------------
Mage of Light, HP new: 89, HP old: 77 BUFF
Silver Mage, HP new: 90, HP old: 78 BUFF
Necromancer, HP new: 112, HP old: 124 NERF/BUFF (resistances/weapon)
Great Mage, HP new: 99, HP old: 106 NERF (CAP)

Merfolk:
---------------
Mermaid Siren, HP new: 97, HP old: 83 BUFF (resistances)
Mermaid Diviner, HP new: 88, HP old: 73 BUFF


Dune Faction:
-------------------
Dune Luminary, HP new: 96, HP old: 85 BUFF (resistances)
Dune Harrier, HP new: 94, HP old: 86 BUFF (resistances)
Dune Paragon HP new: 119, HP old: 134 NERF