Scenario Review: SoF 9 - Caverns of Flame

[Balroth]

Made an campaign-wide feedback for this, I think it's more helpful than feedback on seperate scenarios viewtopic.php?f=6&t=48884 (reposting it on SoF 1 - A Bargain is Struck)

[LordWolfDan]

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

- 1.14.5, Normal

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

- 7

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

- Kinda clear. At first I thought I had to get rid of elves myself. Seeing how lava is doing its' job, I didn't bother.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

- Very impressive! Despite having some "eh" moments in the campaign, Rugnur's last stand, sacrifice and the outcome of both hammer of Thursagan and Sceptre of Fire is all well done! Along with "Liberty" and "Dead Water", this has to be one of the best endings of Wesnoth

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

- Keeping Rugnur and Thursagan alive after stepping on the glyph

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

- 7

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

- Can't think of any

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

- Had to move Rugnur and Thursagan on a safer spot after they were roasted by lava before the erruption happened

[devavrata]

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

Battle for Wesnoth 1.8.3, Easy, Battle for Wesnoth 1.10.7 Medium, Battle for Wesnoth 1.12.5 Hard

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

Achieving the objectives is dead easy - just running straight south, fighting the six units that are guarding the glyph, stepping on it, surviving for six turns. Winning the scenario is impossible. And not because the game doesn't offer you a way to win, but because it is scripted that you lose - there is no way around it.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Obviously, misleading. Following my objectives got all of my units killed except Krawg. Was this my objective, really? I can kill all of the elves, but then nothing happens. The only way to arrive to the end of the scenario, and the campaign, is by activating the glyph. Why would I do that? I agree with dahlia:

there was something very funny about killing off every hostile unit on the level and having the dwarves sit around going "Well, we're trapped and it's hopeless, I guess we have to kill ourselves now."

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

About the campaign in general, I agree with Thrash: Whacky campaign, storyline never came across and was mostly ignored, some strategically interesting scenarios. About the scenario in particular, the dialogue is ridiculous. Are we starting a volcanic eruption before we find a way out, really?

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Mainly, the 26 level-3 elves that appear on turn 4. On the other hand, getting your entire army recalled at the start is a nice surprise. My typical campaign strategy is what I call "level-3 hoarding", levelling up units up to level 3, then abstain from recalling them again so I can level up other lower-level units instead -hopefully, by the final scenario which is typically a great battle, I would have a lot of level-3 units, so many that I couldn't afford to recall them all... and then, on this campaign, I got the wish of having them all.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

0. This is a game, not a story. Players must have freedom enough to change the outcome. Players ought to get a chance to win. Specially, taking into account that you can be victorious in battle.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Contrary to what the scenario designer thinks, losing is not fun. An unwinnable scenario is a deception, a trap in disguise, a mockery of a game. Should I have wanted a story with a predetermined ending, I would have picked up a book or a film.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

Yes, the misleading objectives. First the objective is to explore the cave. OK. Then I find the glyph and the objective changes to go to the glyph. OK. I do it, and then the objective changes to kill all of the elves before they leave the caves. The time is tight, on hard difficulty there are only five turns available, then at the sixth turn an image of an elf appears warning of the imminent volcanic eruption and calling for all the elves to leave the caves, and on the seventh turn the eruption starts and everybody dies. So, I got to think I was losing (my units) because the elves managed to leave the caves on time, so I should manage to kill them all before that sixth turn... I restarted, I managed to do it, and then... death anyway. Killing the elves earlier would not lead to victory, but only to an earlier eruption and death. I even experimented by activating the glyph when there's only one elf left, and then kill it immediately... and, sure enough, immediately the eruption starts.

[octalot]

Would it help to show a narrator message (or the objectives dialog) after the eruption, saying the expected victory condition has happened, and to press "end scenario" for the epilogue?

[Konrad2]

Perhaps the elves generating event from TSG 8a could be tweaked and added here, so that noone can complain that this scenario is winnable? (Just to drive the point home that this is not an openworld campaign or RPG.)

EDIT:
Perhaps turn it off once the glyph is activated.

[Konrad2]

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

1.15.8, Lord (Difficult)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

7, you need a bit to figure out what's going on and where to find the tablets.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

4, honestly. At least compared to the usal clarity.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Clear.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Finding the tablets and staying ahead of the elves.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

5

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

-

Scenario stats:

Spoiler:

[fredbobsmith2]

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on? Steelclad (Challenging) 1.18.4
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10) 4
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives? Not very, see below
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Very hard if you don't play it once first. Accidentally pushing too far west or east will waste lots of time, whereas just rushing the objectives is easy. I ran for the first southern keep and recalled all my L3 units from the previous scenario, then smashed the trolls in the centre and east while holding off the elves and trolls a bit. Once the elves and trolls start fighting each other the pressure eases off alot.

I ended up staying around to try to beat all the enemy leaders but discovered the wyrm leader can't be reached.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

[fredbobsmith2]

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on? Lord (Difficult) 1.18.4
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10) 3
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives? Not very, see below
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario? Good, though the conclusion to keep the Scepter hidden is a bit sudden.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Less gold and much higher recall costs, but this scenario is easy if you know what to do. I bee-lined the keep in the south corridor, then recalled to dam up that corridor against the wyrms. Every recall after that went southeast to hunt down the troll with the tablet, except for 2 that held the west corridor for a few turns. Once the troll hero and the shamans are defeated, move the gryphon into position, and the scenario is essentially over.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10) 6
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun? None
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario? None

[JoelPera]

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Lord (Difficult) and version 1.18.7

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
7.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Crystal.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
The finale. How they managed to disrupt nearly every faction who were minding their own business in this escape of theirs. XD. Plotwise it was also good to see the Elves die finally by the orcs and not have unrealistic reinforcements.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Hunting for each tablet and keeping the elves sandwiched between enemy factions.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
9.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I still couldn't manage to level up Thursagan to tier 4 to find out what he becomes. Maybe lower the xp requirement? Given that I played on max difficulty and still failed to. Like an Archmage just needs 150 and tends to kill things way more easier than him.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
The first few times when I didn't know which side the remaining tablets could be.

Closing comments: Really great improvements in this campaign since I last played. I remember Krawg used to actually speak before(?) and now he's more of gesturing like a pet dog, which is good and less cartoonish. Alanin character development, art portraits and good ending for him was really nice. Of course, the main thematic message of the world being greedy by nature and no amount runecrafting can protect the sceptre from that. Durstom's artwork is good and his funny reactions matched them.

Lorewise would this and The Hammer of Thrusagan need to be reconciled? In THoT, the loremaster says roughly that Thursagan's

Spoiler:

hammer was so old that it was the very same one that created the Dwarves and him dying with it here led to a chain-reaction that killed all their runesmiths.

Shouldn't a nod to the latter repercussions be hinted or something at the end here? And the fact that he's holding such an artifact doesn't seem to be acknowledged here plotwise or gameplay wise.

[Traumflug]

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

Version 1.18.5, Biased RNG (experimental), difficulty Lord (Difficult)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

Without any hint in advance: 11

If one knows what to search for: 8 (probably)

If one has seen a replay and knows the tricks: 5

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Very clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Clear.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Essentially I couldn't do it without watching a replay. Without knowing what to search for one just stumbles around until one is defeated. Over and over again.

Then I watched two or three of the replays here. A working strategy:

Spoiler:

• The goal is to break three tablets:
  1. Orcs have one tablet and break it as soon as they have enemy contact. Contact with Elves works as well.
  2. The second tablet has Toomak, the Mighty Troll, who lives southeast in the big central chamber. He breaks this tablet when he dies.
  3. The third tablet lies on the floor, near the middle of the southern edge of the map. Only Krawg (didn't try another Gryphon) can reach it, pick it up and break it.
• Activate Orcs early (get into their distance of sight), because later there is no chance to do so.
• Other than that, run south east immediately. Don't use the initially visible keep for recalling, but the one on the way to the south at 16,12. At turn 6 you should see why: you'd suddenly find yourself in between big Elves and Orcs armies.
• Activate Trolls when your recalls are done by walking a number of steps westwards on this path a bit south of the recalling keep.
• With all this done, get out of the way everywhere to make enemies fight each other instead of you. You'll still have to fight a number of them, but only in manageable doses. It's also time to find and visit Toomak, and to send Krawg south.

Out of curiosity I've choosen to defeat all enemies in an earlier play. Except for Wyrms that's possible, Orc's Gold isn't endless. At turn 17 it's gone and from there on it's a matter of good tactical planning to keep enemies fighting each other and then grind down enemies in small chunks while staying close to some of these villages for healing. Then go for their leaders. Wyrms don't have a leader, but start to exist on two fields in the north west. In the end one even has positive Gold.

Here's the north western area where Wyrms are generated, these two green Wyrms just appeared:

Wyrms Area.png (310.49 KiB) Viewed 129 times

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

8

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Storyline should be more clear on what to search for. Perhaps telling a myth with the mechanism (with these tablets, who has them), like it was done in the second scenario. Luring enemies into fighting each other is still difficult enough.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

Lost overview of how often that was necessary

(9) Replay remarks

First replay is the continuation of the other replays uploaded for this campaign and wins at turn 18 in a pretty relaxed tactical situation. Actually I somehow I forgot to proceed towards winning around turn 10, it could be done faster.

SoF-Höhlen des Feuers Aufzeichnung 20260627-002908.gz

(67.31 KiB) Downloaded 6 times

Second replay was played earlier and shows how to defeat all enemies (except Wyrms). At turn 11 Krawg could fly to the third tablet and win the scenario immediately, so it's also pretty much a speed run in this early phase. At turn 37, enemy troops are defeated. At turn 80, enemy leaders are defeated as well. The remaining 20 turns explore the Wyrm creation area and demonstrate how my fellow Dwarfs can easily survive forever. Turn 100 Krawg finally catches the third tablet.

SoF-Höhlen des Feuers Aufzeichnung 20260530-050131.gz

(120.27 KiB) Downloaded 6 times