Eastern Invasion

[Konrad2]

Scenario 06a Soradoc

Playing (no more) the last version in BfW 1.18

Many objective conditions to win are false!

Move Owaec next to Yannick It isn't a condition to win the scenario, it's pratically a condition to waste time and units.

To kill the more enemy leaders before the end of turns it isn't a condition to win, it's only a tips, when turn runs out the human player lose.

I'm sorry, I'm too stupid to understand the meaning of this. please forgive me!

You mean these objectives, right?
Victory refers to the win condition.
'Optional objectives' refer to objectives that are no win conditions, but are optional and might have an influence on later events.
Which part in unclear to you?

[Argesilao2]

from: https://wiki.wesnoth.org/InterfaceActio ... ectives.5D

[objective]: describes a win or loss condition. Most scenarios have multiple win or loss conditions, so use a separate [objective] subtag for each line; this helps with translations.
...
green: Default '255' for winning objectives, '0' for losing objectives. Overrides the default green coloring of the entire objective, including the bullet.
...
description: text for the specific win or loss condition.
...
condition: The color and placement of the text. Values are 'win'(colored green, placed after victory_string) and 'lose'(colored red, placed after defeat_string).

This means that a green description said what I have to do to win the scenario.
So, If to move Owaec next to Yannick does not lead to victory it means that to move Owaec next to Yannick it isn't a winning condition; it's something else which should be listed in an objective note, not in the conditions that lead to victory.
Alternatively this description should be indicated: move Owaec near Yannick AND move any unit to the northern pass.

Furthermore, after having brought Owaec close to Yannick, the human player discovers that he must also try to keep Yannick alive, which is rather difficult especially because the human player has no control over Yannick's side, and therefore everything, or almost everything, depends on the fortune.

Idem for the second alternative objective; to give an example: it's as if there were an alternative objective that says: gain as much experience as possible; gaining as much experience as possible is clearly beneficial to the human player, but it is not a goal that leads to the victorious conclusion of the scenario; it's something better to do but not necessary to do; but there is the tag [note] for these things.

In conclusion, the scenario can be won in one way only: by moving a unit to the northern pass.

The other two objectives are actions that are better to do, but which do not necessarily result in victory; furthermore, if the benefits of the second alternative objective can be easily understood, those of the first are unclear, and therefore it is impossible for the human player to know whether it is worth spending resources to bring Owaec close to Yannick.

[Dalas120]

Hi Argesilao2 - EI creator here! Green text is indeed the Wesnoth standard for bonus/optional objectives - see HttT's Cliff of Thoria, for example. But regardless of the "standard", if this wasn't clear to you there will certainly be others who'll have the same confusion, so I'd like to revise this to be more clear.

Would it make the scenario objectives more clear if I revised objectives to read as follows?

• "Bonus Objective" rather than "Optional Objective"

• "Defeat as many enemy leaders as possible before you escape (easier next scenario)"

• "Move Owaec next to Yannic, and then protect Yannic until you escape (bonus item next scenario)"

[gnombat]

Hi Argesilao2 - EI creator here! Green text is indeed the Wesnoth standard for bonus/optional objectives - see HttT's Cliff of Thoria, for example. But regardless of the "standard", if this wasn't clear to you there will certainly be others who'll have the same confusion, so I'd like to revise this to be more clear.

Would it make the scenario objectives more clear if I revised objectives to read as follows?

• "Bonus Objective" rather than "Optional Objective"

• "Defeat as many enemy leaders as possible before you escape (easier next scenario)"

• "Move Owaec next to Yannic, and then protect Yannic until you escape (bonus item next scenario)"

To be honest that's still not very clear what the player actually has to do. What does "escape" mean? Is that the same thing as "Move any unit to the northern path"? (That didn't mention anything about escaping.)

I would recommend looking at some other mainline scenario objectives to see how they handle this. ("Cliffs of Thoria" might not be the best example to use as a guide, as that branch of the campaign is rarely played and not very well tested.)

In The Rise of Wesnoth, "Sewer of Southbay", the objectives are stated very explicitly:

Code: Select all

        [objectives]
            side=1
            [objective]
                description= _ "Prince Haldric exits the sewer"
                condition=win
            [/objective]
            [objective]
                {BONUS_OBJECTIVE_CAPTION}
                description= _ "Defeat both wizards and Prince Haldric exits the sewer"+{EARLY_FINISH_BONUS_FOOTNOTE}
                condition=win
            [/objective]

In The Rise of Wesnoth, "The Dragon", again the objectives are very explicit:

Code: Select all

        [objectives]
            side=1
            [objective]
                description= _ "Slay the Dragon"
                condition=win
            [/objective]
            [objective]
                {BONUS_OBJECTIVE_CAPTION}
                description= _ "Slay the Dragon and defeat all enemy leaders"+{EARLY_FINISH_BONUS_FOOTNOTE}
                condition=win
            [/objective]

In Heir to the Throne, "Swamp Of Dread", it is not spelled out as explicitly, but the word first makes it clear that you are not going to be done when you defeat all the Death Knights:

Code: Select all

        [objectives]
            side=1
            [objective]
                description= _ "Defeat the Lich-Lord Aimucasur"
                condition=win
            [/objective]
            [objective]
                {BONUS_OBJECTIVE_CAPTION}
                description= _ "Defeat all Death Knights first"
                condition=win
            [/objective]

I would suggest something like this:

• "Move any unit to the northern path"
• "Defeat as many enemy leaders as possible, and then move any unit to the northern path (easier next scenario)"
• "Move Owaec next to Yannic, and then protect Yannic until you move any unit to the northern path (bonus item next scenario)"

Or maybe this:

• "Escape by moving any unit to the northern path"
• "Defeat as many enemy leaders as possible before you escape (easier next scenario)"
• "Move Owaec next to Yannic, and then protect Yannic until you escape (bonus item next scenario)"

[Spannerbag]

Hi guys,

what happened to Dacyn and the Nill stone after the EI? I didn't found anything on the wiki

Check out Spannerbag's campaign "After EI"; I don't think he's ported it to 1.16 yet, though, so you'll have to check the 1.14 add-on server...

FWIW I am still hoping to do a major rewrite of AfterEI, but it's a way off sadly.
Very time poor just now and am still wading through a fairly chunky update to LSB based on player feedback.
Then I have another campaign that's about 70% complete that I need to finish.
After that I I'll rework AfterEI - although I have several other campaign ideas I'd like to develop as well (if I live long enough ).

Mind you, it takes me sooo long to publish stuff that by the time I do all my ideas have been developed independently by swifter folk than me.

Cheers!
-- Spannerbag

[Argesilao2]

• "Bonus Objective" rather than "Optional Objective"

"Bonus Objective" seems to me more appropriate; using the term "optional" it seems that the player can choose whether to do one thing or the other to obtain the victory.

• "Defeat as many enemy leaders as possible before you escape (easier next scenario)"

• "Move Owaec next to Yannic, and then protect Yannic until you escape (bonus item next scenario)"

Well, in this form it is clearer that the unavoidable condition for winning the scenario is to bring a unit into the northern pass, and that "Defeat as many enemy leaders as possible" and "Move Owaec next to Yannic, and then protect Yannic until you escape" are just behaviors that can bring future advantages.

I remain of the opinion that obtaining a bonus by bringing Owaec close to Yannic is a pious illusion, given the difficulty of keeping Yannic alive, but this concerns other aspects of the scenario.

[white_haired_uncle]

Bonus objective is better. It's a bonus, not an option (alternative).

I would only tell the player what the bonus is on easy. You could give a hint that killing leaders will soften up the enemy in the future, but "bonus item next scenario" - how would the player (in the story) know that?

[Dalas120]

"Bonus Objective" seems to me more appropriate; using the term "optional" it seems that the player can choose whether to do one thing or the other to obtain the victory.

Will do. I think there's a couple other cases of {OPTIONAL_OBJECTIVE_CAPTION} in EI; I'll take a look at those to make sure they're sensible.

Oddly enough, core has macros for all 3 of "Alternative Objective", "Optional Objective", AND "Bonus Objective". I'm not sure what "Optional" is supposed to be used for, since "Alternative" is clearly better for the "one-or-the-other" case.

I would suggest something like this:

"Move any unit to the northern path"
"Defeat as many enemy leaders as possible, and then move any unit to the northern path (easier next scenario)"
"Move Owaec next to Yannic, and then protect Yannic until you move any unit to the northern path (bonus item next scenario)"

Sounds good to me; I'll revise the scenario to use this verbiage.

I remain of the opinion that obtaining a bonus by bringing Owaec close to Yannic is a pious illusion, given the difficulty of keeping Yannic alive, but this concerns other aspects of the scenario.

Yannic's rewards are really quite useful! In my playthroughs I don't bother going to Soradoc unless I think I have a good shot at keeping Yannic alive.

I would only tell the player what the bonus is on easy. You could give a hint that killing leaders will soften up the enemy in the future, but "bonus item next scenario" - how would the player (in the story) know that?

I think it's generally good to be transparent with the player about what's happening on all difficulties, so the player can make educated decisions rather than guessing or relying on foreknowledge. Gweddry may not know, but the player does.

[gnombat]

"Bonus Objective" seems to me more appropriate; using the term "optional" it seems that the player can choose whether to do one thing or the other to obtain the victory.

Will do. I think there's a couple other cases of {OPTIONAL_OBJECTIVE_CAPTION} in EI; I'll take a look at those to make sure they're sensible.

Oddly enough, core has macros for all 3 of "Alternative Objective", "Optional Objective", AND "Bonus Objective". I'm not sure what "Optional" is supposed to be used for, since "Alternative" is clearly better for the "one-or-the-other" case.

Strangely, OPTIONAL_OBJECTIVE_CAPTION does not appear to be used anywhere else in mainline (other than EI).

BONUS_OBJECTIVE_CAPTION is quite widely used, in a number of campaigns.

[redbeard2]

Just finished the campaign and a few notes:

Firstly, AMAZINGLY GOOD! New music awesome, the terrain is beautiful, the feel is so much more compelling than older EI, it sets a whole new standard for campaigns. Did a really good job making it so units like swordsmen and cavalrymen stay relevant, which can be tough to pull of when fighting undead...

-The only actual bug I encountered was the amulets seemed to stop working properly after my group was captured and the original owners lost them, people could pick them up, but wouldn't get arcane attacks. Wraith sword worked fine.
-On the website on descriptions of units, Owaec's unit has leadership written multiple times, when in reality he doesn't have leadership at all, so that needs to get adjusted.
Dread lich costs over 600? Yikes, how do you even get a number that crazy? He is super powerful...

Spoiler:

-When you get to drowned plains it seems quite random to have Khrakrahs there, the other leaders were all horse lords, and then a dragon? Was he hanging around Wesnoth and killed, was he killed and brought to Wesnoth? Why would he not be brought to the siege of Weldyn in any case? I know he's a holdover from when he had the Null Stone in the original, but even then it didn't really make sense...
-A huge plot point is only this amulet can stop Mal Ravanal, but is that really true? The book of Crenalu was used to defeat a Lich under similar circumstances in DM (admittedly DM will be heavily rewritten it would seem), and King Konrad is literally holding the most powerful magical artefact in the continent in his scepter. Has nobody read the Book of Crenalu since Delfador died? Has everyone forgotten about the Ruby of Fire doing anything other than being a flamethrower? Is the Book of Fire and Darkness even around?

When you are getting into Weldyn, you kill a few walking corpses and waltz in? We just said there was an immense undead horde besieging the city. Sieges don't just keep people in, they keep relief forces out. It's really taxing suspension of disbelief that they just push through with zero casualties, the visual of the huge armies is cool, but makes it seem ridiculous that they got through that so effortlessly. When I saw that map I was expecting a rough battle to even get in, maybe show Weldyn making a surprise attack to get a messenger out, and that creates a distraction you can use?
-When Konrad discusses getting help, he should at least mention asking Wesmere for help. Sure the elves and Wesnoth weren't always on good terms, but the elves aren't going to just sit and let Wesnoth fall, especially if Kalenz is still around (is he?). Maybe say Wesmere is on fire from undead attacks and clearly cannot help, could be a good time to give a shout out to Dead Water and mention scouts saw Jotha under undead control, otherwise it seems like a glaring omission in my opinion. If I was Konrad I'd be ready to offer the crown jewels to trolls, naga, anyone able to help, he had literally nothing to lose.

-I hated Evacuation before and I hate it now. I really hoped that whole concept of "recall list dies" would get axed...

Sorry for the long message. Overall, SUPER GOOD, I'm for sure playing it again, I think foreknowledge of how it'll play out will help me structure my recruits better. I hope more campaigns get this treatment.

[Dalas120]

I'm really glad you liked it overall! Took me a couple years of work so it's better be an improvement

the amulets seemed to stop working properly after my group was captured and the original owners lost them, people could pick them up, but wouldn't get arcane attacks. Wraith sword worked fine.

Uh oh, that's serious. Will take a look.

-When you get to drowned plains it seems quite random to have Khrakrahs there, the other leaders were all horse lords, and then a dragon? Was he hanging around Wesnoth and killed, was he killed and brought to Wesnoth?

What I tried to imply with his dialogue and the horseman's journal is that Khrakrahs was hunted down and killed elsewhere, and his corpse was a big part of why the horse plains fell. Agreed that he is a little out of place though, and I don't have a great reason that he wouldn't have been brought to Weldyn

-A huge plot point is only this amulet can stop Mal Ravanal, but is that really true?

Maybe it's true, maybe it's not - but the highest-ranking mage in Wesnoth believes it, and that's what matters!

When you are getting into Weldyn, you kill a few walking corpses and waltz in? We just said there was an immense undead horde besieging the city. Sieges don't just keep people in, they keep relief forces out.

That's a good point, thanks. I'm not up to retooling the entire scenario, but I can definitely add in a section about a secret tunnel or something along those lines - that seems more reasonable than just walking in through the siege.

-When Konrad discusses getting help, he should at least mention asking Wesmere for help.

Makes sense, will do.

[redbeard2]

I'm really glad you liked it overall! Took me a couple years of work so it's better be an improvement

the amulets seemed to stop working properly after my group was captured and the original owners lost them, people could pick them up, but wouldn't get arcane attacks. Wraith sword worked fine.

Uh oh, that's serious. Will take a look.

-When you get to drowned plains it seems quite random to have Khrakrahs there, the other leaders were all horse lords, and then a dragon? Was he hanging around Wesnoth and killed, was he killed and brought to Wesnoth?

What I tried to imply with his dialogue and the horseman's journal is that Khrakrahs was hunted down and killed elsewhere, and his corpse was a big part of why the horse plains fell. Agreed that he is a little out of place though, and I don't have a great reason that he wouldn't have been brought to Weldyn

-A huge plot point is only this amulet can stop Mal Ravanal, but is that really true?

Maybe it's true, maybe it's not - but the highest-ranking mage in Wesnoth believes it, and that's what matters!

When you are getting into Weldyn, you kill a few walking corpses and waltz in? We just said there was an immense undead horde besieging the city. Sieges don't just keep people in, they keep relief forces out.

That's a good point, thanks. I'm not up to retooling the entire scenario, but I can definitely add in a section about a secret tunnel or something along those lines - that seems more reasonable than just walking in through the siege.

-When Konrad discusses getting help, he should at least mention asking Wesmere for help.

Makes sense, will do.

About the amulet, I asked around a few other areas and the issue seems to be a bit different than what I thought. It displays as if it was the original damage type, but if you actually check the damage on the calculation, it is doing arcane. So it works, it just doesn't display on the main screen as if it did. It seems to be at least partly an issue of having 2 damage types, so I don't think the amulet is defective, but the way it displayed for me.
-One other small thing I missed compared to old version was using Konrad to fry undead with the Scepter, it was so fulfilling. But it does make sense he'd stay in his keep, he is the king...

I'm not trying to nit-pick, just hopefully keep making things better. Overall a very strong campaign.

[Dalas120]

About the amulet, I asked around a few other areas and the issue seems to be a bit different than what I thought. It displays as if it was the original damage type, but if you actually check the damage on the calculation, it is doing arcane.

Gotchya, thanks for the clarification. Does sound like something that needs to be fixed, but at least it's not my problem

One other small thing I missed compared to old version was using Konrad to fry undead with the Scepter, it was so fulfilling. But it does make sense he'd stay in his keep, he is the king...

Yeah. One, I wanted him to stay in his keep so you actually needed to defend the city - the best strategy for the old EI was to abandon the city completely and go take one of the lich's keeps. And two, him being locked to his keep gives you a "fallback position": if the undead are breaking into the city and reach your keep, you still have uber-powerful Konrad in reserve.

[redbeard2]

Doing another playthrough, and just noticed something:

The Dark Sanctuary they visit to get the amulet is discussed as the former lair of Iliah-Malal. This maybe makes sense in the Delfador's Memoir's continuity, but The Deceiver's Gambit makes how they discuss him problematic: In DM he led an undead army into Wesnoth and slaughtered thousands, and would certainly have been remembered as a dread dark wizard/lich. In TDG version, he is only a background character, and only Delfador met him, even that briefly before he was killed. He never led undead into Wesnoth, and I really doubt anyone would remember him at all by the time of Eastern Invasion and certainly not as a supreme evil, given that in our new continuity he did little beyond goad the Saurians into following the orcs (unless I'm seriously mis-remembering). So the way they talk about him in that scenario makes no sense with the lore changes that have happened to Iliah-Malal.

UNLESS...

We haven't seen the last of him. He had access to the Journal that explains how to become a Lich (it's sitting right there in the Dark Sanctuary), is it possible we will see him again in a later campaign? Maybe he comes back as a major antagonist in a rewritten Heir to the Throne? Maybe Asheviere is by that point using undead regularly to terrorize and attack people and not just orcs? Heir to the Throne didn't have any compelling Lich/necromancers, maybe he could make their faction more than just a bunch of rather generic baddies Konrad has to beat in any given scenario.

Also BTW, the location is completely wrong at least comparing where Delfador confronts him in TDG and where we are in EI, so that's also something.