What is Arcane? - Suggestions by matto

Discussion of all aspects of multiplayer development: unit balancing, map development, server development, and so forth.

Moderator: Forum Moderators

Do you like my takes?

Good changes & magic theory (Nice Job)
5
19%
Bad changes & magic theory (Terrible)
3
11%
Good changes but bad magic theory
2
7%
Bad changes but good magic theory
2
7%
Some bad & some good, I will Comment.
15
56%
 
Total votes: 27

User avatar
matto
Posts: 261
Joined: November 4th, 2018, 4:21 pm
Contact:

Re: What is Arcane? - Suggestions by matto

Post by matto »

To be continue of previous post....

I want to standardize Frost Stoat and Icemonax Arcane Resistance, to -10%.

Not based off their Descriptions, such as the previously talked units.

Frost Stoat ~ "Their most distinctive feature is their icy-cold front claws, which is unlike anything found in other wild animals"

Great Icemonax / Icemonax ~ "Their armor accumulates frost and snow, even in more temperate climates"

Rather based off Frost Stoat -20% to Arcane...
Frost Stoat: [1.18] -20%
Icemonax: [1.18-1.16] 0%
...and here i propose to use Resistances Changing Between Levels approach (which i will call RCBL from now on), for units such as Icemonax.

So instead of having identical Resistances and Description between Icemonax and Great Icemonax, would have:

Icemonax: 0% Arcane

Great Icemonax: -10% Arcane

With only Great Icemonax/Frost Stoat description changed to a more "unnatural" explanation for a stronger cold attack.

This same thinking can be shared for Dark Horse to Black Horse (Description support RCBL), Raven to War Harbinger (Description support RCBL + Magical attack on lvlup), Vampire Bat to Dread Bat (Description support RCBL)

BUT! don't get me wrong, RCBL should not ever end up being over-used.

Other units such as Fire Ant stay untouched, either because there are 2 variants of Ants, or the Descriptions are just well done [unlike Icemonax repetitions], or only one mentions...

Fire Ant ~ "Small but deadly in large numbers, fire ants possess fierce fangs and an unusual ability to generate fire"

... unusual abilities, despite Fire Ant being a tad SUPERNATURAL in comparison to Cave Ants, that doesn't have to mean to be Magically (Arcane) influenced, in fact Fire Ant to Cave Ants difference is displayed in a natural way, resistance to fire [+20%] and weakness to cold [-20%] of Fire Ants, the extreme opposite is Sand Scamperer to Giant/Rock Scorpion.

[heavly explanatory descriptions vs wondering/casual descriptions]

Supernatural but close to "unnatural": Raven from lvl2 to 3, Sand Scorpion, Black horse.

Supernatural: Dark Horse, White Horse, Fire Ant, Frost Stoat, Dread Bat, Great Icemonax

Natural: Raven, Icemonax, Bay/Great Horse, Vampire Bat, Cave Ants.

At this point i suggest to re-read my first theory post, to see if my thinking somewhat checks out, anyway hope i didn't miss other animals i wanted to talk about or you people had question about.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This days i was trying to find words to explain at best this concept:
Magical Print, Essence, Soul, Life Force, Domains... mutual to each other?

Meanwhile i will post about the other questions here, and under an advice i will probably post an "non-explanatory" PR with new numbers regarding both Arcane Attacks of certain Units and re-propose/change some of this post Arcane Resistances, for people to speak again, and i will push for every Balance Member to take a side then.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
User avatar
matto
Posts: 261
Joined: November 4th, 2018, 4:21 pm
Contact:

Re: What is Arcane? - Suggestions by matto

Post by matto »

ChaosRider - Extra Damage Types.

Hi @ChaosRider,

i believe the concept for Mainline Wesnoth to have new damage types included is a great idea, but right now its not the time for it to happen.

This surely would be great for a representation of "Rising of the Second Sun" time-line, considering that descriptions of the UtBS campaign suggest incredible powers and hights reached for all types of Magicians! Maybe they developed specific counters (resistances) to certain types of magical attacks =)

And Maybe... Maybe in the future, if i have the power, will and resources to make that.

[It would surely break the concept of "Keep it simple, stupid and easy". Pointing at 100% complexity if that will ever happen, "Make it complex, smart and hard" :P :mrgreen: ]

But hey, you can always make lore/units/factions/ideas to propose for mainline.
User avatar
matto
Posts: 261
Joined: November 4th, 2018, 4:21 pm
Contact:

Re: What is Arcane? - Suggestions by matto

Post by matto »

https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/pull/9837

Posted new changes on a PR, incorporated requests from both sides.
User avatar
Yomar
Posts: 429
Joined: October 27th, 2011, 5:14 am
Contact:

Re: What is Arcane? - Suggestions by matto

Post by Yomar »

In that case maybe the game should like branch off.
Like a side project, something like Wesnoth hard, reccomended only for masochist players.🤣

Jokes appart, it would it not be easier just to make a mod ?
In fact I think there were already some mods with more damage types, actually I just remembered that there is already one called "more damage types" on the add-on server for Wesnoth 1.18.
Beheld the origins of BFW.
Max G on WIF
Rank 🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟
User avatar
matto
Posts: 261
Joined: November 4th, 2018, 4:21 pm
Contact:

Re: What is Arcane? - Suggestions by matto

Post by matto »

Yomar wrote: February 3rd, 2025, 7:44 pm In that case maybe the game should like branch off.
Like a side project, something like Wesnoth hard, reccomended only for masochist players.🤣

Jokes appart, it would it not be easier just to make a mod ?
In fact I think there were already some mods with more damage types, actually I just remembered that there is already one called "more damage types" on the add-on server for Wesnoth 1.18.
Why should we limit Wesnoth? I think its nice for Wesnoth Mainline to start adding new, instead of players relying only on UMC creators or Mainline to incorporate them. The game has been around for years, people have grown and developed taste, keeping with time doesn't sound bad to me.
gnombat
Posts: 854
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 8:49 pm

Re: What is Arcane? - Suggestions by matto

Post by gnombat »

matto wrote: February 3rd, 2025, 7:55 pm Why should we limit Wesnoth? I think its nice for Wesnoth Mainline to start adding new, instead of players relying only on UMC creators or Mainline to incorporate them.
Frankly, that seems ... backwards. I think the right question to ask here is: why shouldn't some new proposal be tried in UMC first, before getting added to mainline? Almost all campaigns (and other major features) that have been added to the mainline game in the last 20 years have come from UMC addons. That seems to be the best way to test out things and get feedback from the community, and it has worked out fairly well.

When problems have occurred with mainline content, it's usually because of something which was added without having ever been tried in UMC beforehand.
User avatar
matto
Posts: 261
Joined: November 4th, 2018, 4:21 pm
Contact:

Re: What is Arcane? - Suggestions by matto

Post by matto »

I guess i came wrong here, english not my language.
I am talking more about having a Mainline Team (other than simply incorporate add-on, more than usually Campaigns), surely play testing can be done through use of add-on server. There are a lot of talented UMC creators out there, not saying its easy, in fact i doubt a community driven project have the
power to make a dream Team work. xD There would be so many different views without a leader.
gnombat
Posts: 854
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 8:49 pm

Re: What is Arcane? - Suggestions by matto

Post by gnombat »

matto wrote: February 3rd, 2025, 9:09 pm I guess i came wrong here, english not my language.
I am talking more about having a Mainline Team (other than simply incorporate add-on, more than usually Campaigns), surely play testing can be done through use of add-on server.
OK, that seems like a step in the right direction. But that doesn't always happen, right? For example, was there ever any add-on with the 1.18 changes? I don't think so - there was a forum post, and then they just appeared in 1.17/1.18. (Correct me if I am mistaken.)
matto wrote: February 3rd, 2025, 9:09 pm There are a lot of talented UMC creators out there, not saying its easy, in fact i doubt a community driven project have the
power to make a dream Team work. xD There would be so many different views without a leader.
I'm still not sure I understand or agree with this. You seem to be of the opinion that UMC is some sort of second-tier, amateur-level content, and that the job of producing content can be better done by a group of mainline developers. That may sound nice in theory, but it seems to be contradicted by the entire history of the Wesnoth project:
  1. As I mentioned before, almost all existing mainline content was created by individual UMC developers, and later incorporated into mainline. It wasn't created by a mainline "dream team".
  2. When mainline developers have gotten together to plan and work on mainline content, the most common outcome is that nothing much gets done.
  3. On the rare occasions when stuff does actually get done, the result has frankly not been very good.
You say you want Wesnoth mainline to have new stuff but ... the best way for Wesnoth mainline to get new stuff is to pick the best stuff from UMC. (Then you may need a team of mainline developers to work on editing it, polishing it, balancing it, etc.) And yet you seem to be dismissive of this possibility, despite the fact that it has worked well in the past.

The worst way for Wesnoth mainline to get new stuff is to form a team of mainline developers who will work on something without any feedback from the community and then it will just simply appear in the next version of Wesnoth. That has never worked well (and I doubt it ever would).

In fairness, you don't seem to be advocating that - you appear to be proposing that a mainline team would first create an add-on and then develop that on the add-on server with feedback from the community, and then at some point when it is considered sufficiently stable it would likely be added to mainline. I'm still a bit skeptical about how well this will work, but I guess time will tell...
User avatar
Lord-Knightmare
Discord Moderator
Posts: 2460
Joined: May 24th, 2010, 5:26 pm
Location: Somewhere in the depths of Irdya, gathering my army to eventually destroy the known world.
Contact:

Re: What is Arcane? - Suggestions by matto

Post by Lord-Knightmare »

you appear to be proposing that a mainline team would first create an add-on and then develop that on the add-on server with feedback from the community, and then at some point when it is considered sufficiently stable it would likely be added to mainline
This is the current way we are making mainline content nowadays. It allows community to express their concerns and opinions early on the mainline content's development phase. Two projects like the The Deceiver's Gambit and The South Guard (Tutorial version) have been added like this. Another project like Ashievere's Dogs is also open to feedback from community before it's potential addition to the mainline list.
The worst way for Wesnoth mainline to get new stuff is to form a team of mainline developers who will work on something without any feedback from the community and then it will just simply appear in the next version of Wesnoth. That has never worked well (and I doubt it ever would).
This process was identified as erroneous and no longer followed.
Creator of "War of Legends"
Creator of the Isle of Mists survival scenario.
Maintainer of Forward They Cried
User:Knyghtmare | My Medium
vilka
Posts: 2
Joined: February 1st, 2021, 5:41 pm

Re: What is Arcane? - Suggestions by matto

Post by vilka »

Looked at the new pull request, commenting here since I don't have a github account.

-40% arcane on undead seems okay. I'd prefer -50% but I can understand it as a compromise.
I like drakes/saurians/humans having 1.16 arcane again

Damage nerfs seem okay as a compromise, if that helps convince devs to bring back arcane resistances to be closer to the old ones.

10% arcane on horsemen looks very weird, I think it's better to have 20% there, for consistency other humans. Horsemen were just fine with 20% arcane on previous versions, and elf scouts use the elf's arcane resistance, not the horse's, it doesn't make sense any human horsemen should be different.

Why do orcs/goblins get 10%? Is this change done because of singleplayer reasons, or multiplayer reasons?
User avatar
Yomar
Posts: 429
Joined: October 27th, 2011, 5:14 am
Contact:

Re: What is Arcane? - Suggestions by matto

Post by Yomar »

Adding new campaigns is different from chamging core era elements.
I started playing Wesnoth cause the kiss approach.
True ppl grow, but there are always new players, that may would find it too overwhelming if the game gets more complicated than it already is.
Simple to learn but hard to master.
If a veteran player wants more, then he just has to install an add-on.
But it would be way more complicated to remove things once they are added in the core, if for example, someone wants to play a more "vanilla" version of the game.
Also it's bothering, I often see players having 23 gp left, before it was possible to buy a horseman, now it's no more feasable given the same conditions.
But I guess this was done on purpose ?
Now you need to save more to get a nerfed one, and that you can lose easly with a bit of bad luck.
Beheld the origins of BFW.
Max G on WIF
Rank 🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟
SmileyJ
Posts: 1
Joined: March 14th, 2022, 7:52 pm

Re: What is Arcane? - Suggestions by matto

Post by SmileyJ »

I'm not one for wordy replies, so I'll keep it short: I do not see a reason to touch units based on the horses they ride. It just feels odd to me. I always just assumed that magical resistances depended on the rider himself - like how the Paladin is more resistant to arcane due to his training as, well, a Paladin. Standardizing it on the basis of the horse and not the rider just adds unnecessary complications to purposes of standardization, in my opinion.
User avatar
matto
Posts: 261
Joined: November 4th, 2018, 4:21 pm
Contact:

Re: What is Arcane? - Suggestions by matto

Post by matto »

Hi everyone, i wanted to inform you that i will be unaviable to talk/answer for 80% of the time for 6 months, since i am studying.

Anyways i came back to share some more of my views.
gnombat wrote: February 4th, 2025, 1:38 am I'm still not sure I understand or agree with this. You seem to be of the opinion that UMC is some sort of second-tier, amateur-level content....
Well yes in a sense, it's not like you need to be a professional to do UMC by use of WML (in theory thats its purpose), what makes UMC stand-out is a great idea, which get achieved by Talented UMC creators with extra skills and or resources.
gnombat wrote: February 4th, 2025, 1:38 am ....and that the job of producing content can be better done by a group of mainline developers.
Yeah, you are right, we share the same uncertain about something like that xD

I guess from the side i belong to you end up feeling weird when popular aspects of the game (PvP/Ladder or Afterlife and World Conquest II after so much time do) don't get support by Mainline, things are slowly getting better now.
gnombat wrote: February 4th, 2025, 1:38 am That may sound nice in theory, but it seems to be contradicted by the entire history of the Wesnoth project:

1. As I mentioned before, almost all existing mainline content was created by individual UMC developers, and later incorporated into mainline. It wasn't created by a mainline "dream team".
Oh yeah sure, thought now there is more care for good Reworks, talented people presence spiked up :mrgreen:
gnombat wrote: February 4th, 2025, 1:38 am 2. When mainline developers have gotten together to plan and work on mainline content, the most common outcome is that nothing much gets done.
I can't say that i know much about this other than small talks that i heard, feel like there were many controversial things about it XD
gnombat wrote: February 4th, 2025, 1:38 am 3. On the rare occasions when stuff does actually get done, the result has frankly not been very good.
Thats the difference from a TEAM and a SOLO "TEAM", and just in case if Krogen comments get mentioned, i have to say that already at that time he was pretty much out of Wesnoth and Balance related to Mainline, just a great player casually dropping his thinking.

Out of those avalanche of changes there were like 2 or 3 that are part of some Ladder players ideas to improve a little.

Don't get me wrong tho, i think some of what Henje did is nice, in the sense that it is a good excuse to revision the XP of higher and lower level units with a 8xp Metric (without being like some fanatical people that over-use RIPLIB concept) and there are surelly nice hints were Balancing can be done. (and prices of lvl2/higher, though thats more of a Campaign thing right now.)
Yomar wrote: February 4th, 2025, 7:50 pm Adding new campaigns is different from chamging core era elements.
Yomar wrote: February 4th, 2025, 7:50 pm But it would be way more complicated to remove things once they are added in the core, if for example, someone wants to play a more "vanilla" version of the game.
I never proposed to change, i proposed to expand/add. I took exemple from the situation that have happened recently. XD
Yomar wrote: February 4th, 2025, 7:50 pm I started playing Wesnoth cause the kiss approach.
True ppl grow, but there are always new players, that may would find it too overwhelming if the game gets more complicated than it already is.
Simple to learn but hard to master.
If a veteran player wants more, then he just has to install an add-on.
Sure, but i don't agree, from what i understand even Mainline Campaigns are moving towards that direction, thought i didn't propose extra Menus yet xDD or Rpg style Equipments.
Yomar wrote: February 4th, 2025, 7:50 pm Also it's bothering, I often see players having 23 gp left, before it was possible to buy a horseman, now it's no more feasable given the same conditions.
But I guess this was done on purpose ?
Now you need to save more to get a nerfed one, and that you can lose easly with a bit of bad luck.
This one i answer in italian :P Don't worry people you aren't losing anything of that much importance, just wanted to answer WiF General Yomar easly xD
Cavallerizzo
Quel cambiamento comporta l'indebolimento dei Lealisti in generale e piu' specificatamente del matchup contro l'alleanza di Knalga che principalmente veniva sottomessa, la causa e' data dall'incapacita di controbatterli efficacemente, per via di problemi derivanti dalla differenza di mobilita, mappe e/o unita' counter troppo costose. Un altro cambiamento che da beneficio a questo matchup e' il costo del Cavalcatore di Grifoni che costa 23g invece di 24g, comunque io e SkyEnd stavamo pensando di modificare gli HP del Cavallerizzo invece del suo costo che trovo una scelta un po' noiosa, e poi c'e' da considerare anche che Henjewar ha cambiato gli XP del Cavallerizzo che ha migliorato un po' la situazione.
And to end... @vilka @SmileyJ, i shared my view in the GitHub PR, even though i said i wouldn't (sometimes you get distracted or triggered and you gotta do what you gotta do)

Well see you soon guys, and remember talk, share your thought and ideas, i will still be lurking! afterall i am adict to Wesnoth :mrgreen:
Post Reply