Winds of Fate

[Celtic_Minstrel]

Because its swampy and merfolk like swampy places.

That doesn't make any sense. Why would merfolk, literally the "people of the sea", like living in shallow swamps?

What doesn't make sense is dolphins in an tiny, swampy lake.

Dolphins in a lake or river is fine. Dolphins in a stagnant pond, however, is rather weird, I agree. Perhaps the core piranha unit would be a better choice? (What was it called again? Starts with C and is another word for a piranha.)

[gnombat]

Because its swampy and merfolk like swampy places.

That doesn't make any sense. Why would merfolk, literally the "people of the sea", like living in shallow swamps?

Well, they do have 60% defense there.

[Gothyoba]

Because its swampy and merfolk like swampy places.

That doesn't make any sense. Why would merfolk, literally the "people of the sea", like living in shallow swamps?

What doesn't make sense is dolphins in an tiny, swampy lake.

Dolphins in a lake or river is fine. Dolphins in a stagnant pond, however, is rather weird, I agree. Perhaps the core piranha unit would be a better choice? (What was it called again? Starts with C and is another word for a piranha.)

I think now it may be strange for them to live there, but not unreasonable. The elves may offer alliances, or the forest may protect them from other enemies, or hey may find there is good food to hunt in the waters. They do uptimately have high defense and movement there. As for the dolphins, some dolphins do live in freshwater lakes in rainfroest such as the amazon, a pretty similar enivronment to the one shown. And while the outer lake coast is filled with reeds, the inner lake appears quite normal and well-adapted for a freshwater dolphin. Seahorses on the other hand are very exclusive to marine water, and make no sense in a lake/swamp. It think the prianha creature you are refferingto is a caribe, which could replace the seahorses,

[Roge_Tebnelok]

Finally, instead of criticizing WoF, I’d like to say that based on the Wesmere scenarios, I am now thinking Wesmere is a temeperate rainforest. It makes sensebwhen you consider its dense jungle-like descriptions, possibly indicating a vey hydrated forest floor, and the swampy areas encountered in the Harvest scenario. Also, the storybtext described darkg green there, (btw I don’t want this changed, this isn’t a critcism, it’s just a cool theory that would make no sense without WoF). My idea is that it slowly increases in elvation until reaching thr mountains, with the lower regions closer to sea level being readily hydrate by the Great River, with an immense amountif rainfall creatign swampier regions along parts of the rainforest.

Wesmere as a rainforest is the strangest thing I've heard recently. It's not close enough to the Great River to be that swmpy, smaller rivers from the mountains run through the woods and that's enough to keep them alive and blossoming.There are relatively big bodies of water, Ka'lian's citadel stands on what appears as lake island but not so much, it doesn't flood the soil to that extent. Wesmere isn't placed so far to the north as Lintanir, but it is still a rather cool place in terms of temperature, so the snowfall is as possible to happen as rain, depending on the season of course. I would expect something like this from Aethenwood, though I also disagree on that, but it doesn't make sense to me for Wesmere to be a rainforest.

[Gothyoba]

Its not actually that strange. It is right next to the great river, annuvin swamps and the green swamp. Rainforests aren’t always flooded, nor are they ever completely flooded. Rianforests aren’t even defined on flooding, their defined on precipitation, which can be snowy. This correlates to, but does not require, flooding. And temperate rainforests exist. They have over 140 centimeters of annual precipitation, they are relatively cool but not too much and don’t have to flood a lot. A good example of them is found in much of Japan (which canhave snow at certain times of year by the way). Also, the cool temepratures nearby are likely exagerated by elevation, so it may not be as far north as one might think based on the nearby Heart Mountains. And in Wesmere we see evidence of the swamps that could be cause by high rainfall. In the Aethenwood we see none of that.

In fact, the existence of Wetlands in Wesmere makes it quite likely parts of it are rainfroest given the generally very high amount rainfall in swamps. So I would say that the most likelt environment for Wesmere is a temeprate rainforest, at least in parts of it (e.g. western regions near the Annuvin Swamp shown in WoF).

[Roge_Tebnelok]

It is right next to the great river, annuvin swamps and the green swamp.

Trees prevent swampland's grow by consuming water, if it's excessive, the forest will die. The existence of Wesmere in such place proves that the soil is dryer than it's surroundings.

Also, the cool temepratures nearby are likely exagerated by elevation, so it may not be as far north as one might think based on the nearby Heart Mountains. And in Wesmere we see evidence of the swamps that could be cause by high rainfall.

Heart Mountains are the part of the chain beyond the Lake Vrug, souther part doesn't have a name yet, but that's where Wesmere's rivers come from.

In fact, the existence of Wetlands in Wesmere makes it quite likely parts of it are rainfroest given the generally very high amount rainfall in swamps. So I would say that the most likelt environment for Wesmere is a temeprate rainforest, at least in parts of it (e.g. western regions near the Annuvin Swamp shown in WoF).

Can you give an example where Wetlands of Wesmere are mentioned in mainline campaigns other than WoF?

[Gothyoba]

Corniferous swamps exist, and they would prbably be pretty similar to Wesmere. And Wesnoth deosn’t have to be realistic anyways. We already know for a fact that at leadt parts of Wesmere are wetter than that. WoF is a camapign. I don’t need another example. WoF is still canon even you don’t like it. That’s why I said the theory doesn’t work without WoF, and I like how WoF implies this in the lore. It makes Wesmere more interesting. IIRC the scenario 3 AOI map shows tiny swamps at the edges. Also, isn’t there some swamp in LoW S3?

Not all of Wesmere has to be swamp to be rainforest anyways. Parts of less forested swampland can appear among the forested forest, and still lead to much hugher rainfall in the forest, creating rainforest regions, which are not wet enough to be swampland. Of course, not all of Wesmere has to be a rainforest. Some may not be. It’s possible none of it is. But I don’t think there’s anything disproving this, just as there isn’t much to disporve the idea that it isn’t, but I personally think it’s a reasonable theory given the extremely poor sample size of evidence.

[Roge_Tebnelok]

Corniferous swamps exist, and they would prbably be pretty similar to Wesmere.

Wesmere is more foliar than coniferous.

And Wesnoth deosn’t have to be realistic anyways.

It doesn't, but it has to be consistent.

We already know for a fact that at leadt parts of Wesmere are wetter than that.

What is that supposed to mean?

WoF is a camapign. I don’t need another example. WoF is still canon even you don’t like it.

I'm not the only one who has issues with WoF as it is now, it needs to be improved in all aspects to be worthy being a mainline canon. Things don't appear from and disappear into nowhere, that's why I asked for another example, otherwise this swamp and almost everything else in this campaign has no basis or continuation and is made up.

IIRC the scenario 3 AOI map shows tiny swamps at the edges. Also, isn’t there some swamp in LoW S3?

Tiny swamp tiles aren't the same thing as swampland region inside the forest, and in AOI it's beyond Wesmere's border, in LoW it's a part of the river.

But I don’t think there’s anything disproving this, just as there isn’t much to disporve the idea that it isn’t, but I personally think it’s a reasonable theory given the extremely poor sample size of evidence.

The theory is as reasonable as the amount and believability of the evidence. Your rework is a fan UMC, so you can do whatever you like, but that could not work for mainline or the campaign that builds up on the established story.

[tinwen]

I am playing Wesnoth v1.16.9 (this is the version available with current Debian stable distribution), and downloaded Winds of Fate (latest, 3.0. from the add-ons server. There seems to be a bug in "The contention" scenario. At the last turn some code popped up and I lost although I had a clear advantage.

I'm not sure how to post a screenshot here, the error message is basically "file not found".

Since I have an older version of the game, the bug is probably known already, or, this might be a compatibility issue. But how can I work around it in 1.16? Do I have to kill Karrog to win?

Killing Karrog allowed me to continue.

I have no idea why Winds of fate used to be mainline but aren't now (I'm happy to have discovered the campaign through a mention in the Wesnoth timeline) - could someone perhaps point me to a summary post?

[holypaladin]

Leaving aside the strange behavior of the elves because this has already been mentioned by others, I don't understand why we have mermen in Wesmere when they landed with Haldric and not in the middle of the continent but in the Bay of Pearls. (Unless there are some other large mermen communities at that time that I don't know about?)

Because its swampy and merfolk like swampy places. Also, they can move around. So this is quite reasonable. What doesn't make sense is dolphins in an tiny, swampy lake.

I rather feel they got included there simply beacuse merman hunters are with elves in multiplayer. I don't know what was reasons behind adding them there but I don't think mermans were stable part of elvish community that time (few years after human arrival).

[Gothyoba]

btw I’m not adding swamp in Wesmere to the AOI Rework. The basis for doing so is too thin in canon. I still don’t think anything disproves the rainforest theory, but it’s also not backed up by a lot. I also don’t have any good spots to add swamp. I’m not going to argue this any further.

[Gothyoba]

I am playing Wesnoth v1.16.9 (this is the version available with current Debian stable distribution), and downloaded Winds of Fate (latest, 3.0. from the add-ons server. There seems to be a bug in "The contention" scenario. At the last turn some code popped up and I lost although I had a clear advantage.

I'm not sure how to post a screenshot here, the error message is basically "file not found".

Since I have an older version of the game, the bug is probably known already, or, this might be a compatibility issue. But how can I work around it in 1.16? Do I have to kill Karrog to win?

Killing Karrog allowed me to continue.

I have no idea why Winds of fate used to be mainline but aren't now (I'm happy to have discovered the campaign through a mention in the Wesnoth timeline) - could someone perhaps point me to a summary post?

I’m confused… WoF is mainline.

[Gothyoba]

Leaving aside the strange behavior of the elves because this has already been mentioned by others, I don't understand why we have mermen in Wesmere when they landed with Haldric and not in the middle of the continent but in the Bay of Pearls. (Unless there are some other large mermen communities at that time that I don't know about?)

Because its swampy and merfolk like swampy places. Also, they can move around. So this is quite reasonable. What doesn't make sense is dolphins in an tiny, swampy lake.

I rather feel they got included there simply beacuse merman hunters are with elves in multiplayer. I don't know what was reasons behind adding them there but I don't think mermans were stable part of elvish community that time (few years after human arrival).

I think this event is weird but possible. Weird thing shappen sometimes, so maybe they can stay. But I also wouldn’t mind having the Merfolk removed.

[Celtic_Minstrel]

Well, they do have 60% defense there.

That just means they're somewhat comfortable. It doesn't mean it's a place they'd want to live.

I think now it may be strange for them to live there, but not unreasonable. The elves may offer alliances, or the forest may protect them from other enemies, or hey may find there is good food to hunt in the waters. They do uptimately have high defense and movement there.

Maybe not completely unreasonable, but definitely strange. They are defined as people of the sea – it's right in their name. I wouldn't expect to meet them inland.

As for the dolphins, some dolphins do live in freshwater lakes in rainfroest such as the amazon, a pretty similar enivronment to the one shown. And while the outer lake coast is filled with reeds, the inner lake appears quite normal and well-adapted for a freshwater dolphin.

Yes, I have nothing against a freshwater dolphin as long as there's either plenty of clear water or a definite river.

Seahorses on the other hand are very exclusive to marine water, and make no sense in a lake/swamp.

Sure, there's that too. There's no reason that I know of why a seahorse-like fish couldn't adapt to freshwater, but it certainly contradicts the reality of things.

It think the prianha creature you are refferingto is a caribe, which could replace the seahorses,

Yes, that's the one – "caribe" is another word for "piranha" in some parts of South America.

I rather feel they got included there simply beacuse merman hunters are with elves in multiplayer. I don't know what was reasons behind adding them there but I don't think mermans were stable part of elvish community that time (few years after human arrival).

This is pretty likely. I believe the reason they're with elves in multiplayer is because the factions originally reflected Heir to the Throne and slowly diverged due to balancing.

[gnombat]

Maybe not completely unreasonable, but definitely strange. They are defined as people of the sea – it's right in their name. I wouldn't expect to meet them inland.

They're found inland in other campaigns, though; e.g., the first scenario of The South Guard. (They're in a village in a river - but adjacent to a swampy region.)