Balance changes for Wesnoth 1.20

[DuncanDill]

I see no problem with these changes AS LONG AS THEY ARE ONLY FOR MULTIPLAYER. Why not make a mp era with your changes, and a more lore friendly one for single player? That way, campaigns won't be broken, but mp would be more balanced and fun (i dont think anyone would care about lore in mp personally). Thoughts?

[Lord-Knightmare]

Not seeing much agreeable changes.

Archer +10% blade resistance form 0%.

Elvish Archer 10% blade is extremely odd: basically no elf unit (and elvish fighter line in particular) has any armour, suddenly, the archer has.

More or less the same argument. I find it odd that the melee oriented fighter gets no blade resistance but this elf archer gets it...

Ghoul - Changed resistances to 10/10/30/20/20/20 from 10/30/0/10/10.

Ghoul for a long time was a unit that really didn't have a solid place within Undead. My attempt to remedy this is simple. Make it a bit of an antithesis to other undead units, not resisting common damage type much however doing well against units that are typically very good against undead. This change does not touch upon matchup vs drakes however it does involve pretty much every other matchup.

No comment on this one. Neutral opinion.

Thunderer - cost changed from 17 to 16 gold.

Agreeable. Makes the unit a little bit more preferable here now.

L1 Quickcaster Mage (no sprite for now, im lazy and cant draw so it is using just default mage sprite)
lawful
20 g
23 hp
6 mp
3-1 impact melee
4-5 arcane ranged magical
Elvish Fighter movementtype.

Is this supposed to be an elf or a human? What strikes me as criticism is this kind of hinting of a teleporting fast ranged damage unit but, I see the unit line has no teleport ability of any nature. Still a WIP?

Mage - costs 19 from 20g.

No comment on this one. Neutral opinion.

Finally fencer 0% impact resistance from -20%.

Maybe -10% and not 0%? Not sure if it should that strong a buff.

Hi - -10% melee parry, +20% ranged parry, no fearless, 5mp, 17g 40/50/0/0/-10/10 resistances

Where do I even begin? The things I can write here.
I feel the whole theme of the HI got wrecked here. The parry on the melee and the ranged seem to be only agreeable things here. I can understand a heavily armor juggernaut with a tower shield won't swing accurately. The other changes seem a bit absurd to me. No fearless? Oh, come on. That's just harsh. A lot of scenarios kind of base the HI being available just for this possibility as HI with fearless trait will be essential in unfavorable ToD. The 5 MP and the adjusted resistances (the 0% impact) kind of betrays the HI's defendor-like role.

Orcish Slurbow fire ranged damaged changed from 15 to 12.

I think reverting the Orc Crossbowman's XP requirements was more agreeable than this...

Dune Skirmisher hp changed from 29 to 30
Dune Herbalist impact resistance changed form 0 to 10%.

Neutral opinion.

Dune Soldier ranged parry from 0 to -10%.

Just the Soldier...? Not any of the advancements? Kind of odd. The parry itself is, I guess, explainable. Armored and tanky so easily hit.

Dune Burner 5-2 melee, -10% melee accuracy , -10% melee parry, 7-3 ranged, res -10/10/20/0/0/10 +1mp (6), 17g, -1hp (34)

Another extreme case, but not really that severe: savage melee nerf, ranged unchanged, +1 MP, So, boosted physical resistances and a nerf to the cold damage resistance?

there is second option of removing melee entirely

If you are that concerned about melee, why not just limit it 1 strike and not use the accuracy and parry on it? Just a suggestion. Take with grain of salt.

[Spannerbag]

Just a query:

So it is that time again. Much of this might be subject to change. However I just wanted to outline some more major stuff earlier. All of this is now a part of add-on called 1.20 Multiplayer Changes and Content. Have fun! ...

As this is an add-on, I presume your changes will not affect units used SP campaigns?
Or am I missing something (not for the first time)?

One thing on my loong to do list is to create an era for long SP campaigns and/or an alternate Wesnoth... maybe one day.

Cheers!
-- Spannerbag

[ForestDragon]

Just a query:

As this is an add-on, I presume your changes will not affect units used SP campaigns?
Or am I missing something (not for the first time)?

Cheers!
-- Spannerbag

They will affect SP, hejne just made an add-on so players can preview his changes. When 1.20 comes out, he wants those changes to apply to both MP and SP and add-ons, just like he changed things in 1.18

[Hejnewar]

Elvish Archer 10% blade is extremely odd: basically no elf unit (and elvish fighter line in particular) has any armour, suddenly, the archer has.

But I need this for balance, sorry. And its not that it now has "armour", it just is better agains that type of damage.

little sense thematically / +20% ranged parry

It has tower shield, the one used in siedges for protection from arrows and stuff. Good enough for me.

talked with 1v1 experts

Oh have they played? I would love to see the replays. Im finally on the other side where I play and people just talk.

XP

I think I made my possition clear on that one.

weird artificial way to make that effect more extreme / Just the Soldier...? Not any of the advancements? Kind of odd.

Well here I somewhat agree, it is like that for this unit. It was done because factions like knalga, rebels and undead actually benefited from this change a lot, either making the matchup more balanced or creating new options that in play are actually fun.

Maybe if Knalga struggles against the classic style HI that badly, they need something that can compete well with a parry-less HI?

Im actually open to that. However its pretty tough to introduce something that wouldnt rise any concerns as I see that most resistance changes do rise them. New unit is out of question, they already have 8 and I already make another new unit.

I and people who I played with / watche my stream actually quiet liked it as well. But anything can be changed.

Actually ABOUT UX I actually played an era with parry quiet a bit on stream people didnt have any problem with it, often new players. Everything is documented on my YT channel for anyone to see. That doesnt change the fact that it should be better explained in game.

Why not make a mp era with your changes / They will affect SP, hejne just made an add-on so players can preview his changes. When 1.20 comes out, he wants those changes to apply to both MP and SP and add-ons, just like he changed things in 1.18

I wanted that. People didnt want that over concerns with too frequent changes and lack of replay compatibility. Go figure.

Is this supposed to be an elf or a human? What strikes me as criticism is this kind of hinting of a teleporting fast ranged damage unit but, I see the unit line has no teleport ability of any nature. Still a WIP?

Levels are very much WIP, feedback welcome.

Maybe -10% and not 0%? Not sure if it should that strong a buff.

Yeah it is, but it opens fencer as a nice option in quiet few matchups, it is like another puzzle piece against elves not great not terrbile worth unit but having different counters and role, performing nicelly against some dunefolk units and least importantly actually doing well in mirror. Which are quiet hard to fix usually... Rare event. Not make or break but nice.

fearless trait will be essential in unfavorable ToD. The 5 MP and the adjusted resistances (the 0% impact)

Fearless can comeback I prefer it without it but thats preference. Impact was already explained, and 5 MP was unfortunatley also needed in order to make it worth it.

Dune Burner

That one was really hard to get right as it cant be too strong vs undead while has to be strong against loyalists HI, Tree and Troll. If any melee it would need to be REALLY weak.

[Tezereth]

Hi - -10% melee parry, +20% ranged parry, no fearless, 5mp, 17g 40/50/0/0/-10/10 resistances

That HI change just strikes me as odd and.... counter intuitive.
While I do agree on reducing the impact resit at least 0, seeing blunt weapons are realistically efficient against armored opponents.
The negative parry mechanic feels also pretty bad. HI already have low defense in most terrain. As for the ranged parry, the shield argument feels, bad, because it's already translated into the RESISTANCES of the unit.

The MP boost also doesn't sit right with the HI, given the whole point is that they're slow but powerful. If anything, the mp required to cross certain terrain should be reduced given they already have low MP.
Fearless reduction just feels unjustified.

And finally, I do agree on cost reduction. HI is the most "normal" of the impact-tanks units yet his cost is way too high. Wose have excellent health, regeneration and ambush for JUST 1 more gold. Trolls are cheaper and have less impressive resistances but also have regeneration and better mobility.

When it comes to dwarves vs HI, I don't really see how unbalanced the situation is. Dwarvish fighters have impact damage, are cheaper, have better mobility due to not being slowed on mountains, hills or even forests, I just don't see how "broken" the HI is supposed to be. Albeit I still do agree on the 0% impact resistance change so that's always a plus in the LvD matchu

[ForestDragon]

Elvish Archer 10% blade is extremely odd: basically no elf unit (and elvish fighter line in particular) has any armour, suddenly, the archer has.

But I need this for balance, sorry. And its not that it now has "armour", it just is better agains that type of damage.

Still, it breaks consistency with both other elves, and other factions' visibly-more-armored archers.

Maybe if the rebels desperately need something for the drake matchup, maybe the new quickcaster line could get a third attack that deals cold damage? This will also help make them stand out from sorceresses more.

It has tower shield, the one used in siedges for protection from arrows and stuff. Good enough for me.

In wesnoth, high chance to hit/defense is usually used for accurate/fast units, while high resistances are used for slower units that can tank a lot of damage. The result of lower chance to hit vs HI for ranged attacks + mp being raised from 4 to 5 makes the unit feel "fast" compared to what he was before.

XP

I think I made my position clear on that one.

I think it's worth repeating your position in this thread so everyone is on the same page.

Levels are very much WIP, feedback welcome.

Could you repost the exact planned lvl2-3 stats of the whole unit line for the thread? I think I saw them a while ago (with the lvl3 having teleport I think) but don't quite remember where.

[Dalas120]

What have I woken up to this morning... ok, I'm not the only one who thinks the HI changes are odd.

If it's truly not possible to balance the HI for MP without such drastic and unconventional changes, would it be an option to keep it as-is in 1.18, or even make it a SP-only unit so its numbers won't affect MP? I'd certainly like to see the HI well-balanced for MP, but the proposed changes feel like a steep price to pay.

The parry on the melee and the ranged seem to be only agreeable things here. I can understand a heavily armor juggernaut with a tower shield won't swing accurately

Note that Parry doesn't affect the accuracy of the HI's swing, but rather affects the accuracy of the retaliating melee attacks. So on flat, HI has 20% chance to be dodge melee, 50% chance to be dodge ranged. Ranged parry is currently implemented by giving the HI a 0x0 ranged attack.

maybe the new quickcaster line could get a third attack that deals cold damage?

Thematically, I like this proposal. I even wonder if the quickcaster could be balanced with cold + fire damage (maybe even on separate melee/ranged?), and themed as an elemental mage? No idea the balance effects of that; just throwing it out.

Because Dwarfs need to beat it. And the only unit that can is fighter.

If we're throwing out ideas, is it feasible to design the HI to be countered by a dwarf unit other than the fighter? For example, 40% -> 30% pierce resist would let the cheap poacher deal 16 damage against the HI at night; more damage than the current fighter deals. Is that significant enough? (of course, HI would need buffs in other areas)

Or on the extreme side, making the HI vulnerable to ulfs? (with other compensating buffs) Maybe lowering the HI's damage but adding the Charge special? Or maybe 9x3 on attack, but a "Heavy" or "Unwieldly" special that restricts it to 9x1 on defense? Or maybe a 14x2 mace with "Heavy"/"Unwieldy" restricting it to offense-only, and then adding a 8x1 shield bash secondary attack (which could get Slow at L2/L3)?

I admit those extreme suggestions are probably too weird though, and might cause just as many SP problems as the original proposal.

[Lord-Knightmare]

Note that Parry doesn't affect the accuracy of the HI's swing, but rather affects the accuracy of the retaliating melee attacks.

Oops, my bad. Anyways, what I meant was that a heavy armor defender is not meant to dodge attacks, rather tank it out.
So, that parry on the HI melee seems agreeable.
But I will still reiterate that the fearless removal and 5 MP and changed resistances for the HI are not what I would agree with.
I don't mind the cost reduction (19 -> 17).

Thematically, I like this proposal. I even wonder if the quickcaster could be balanced with cold + fire damage (maybe even on separate melee/ranged?), and themed as an elemental mage? No idea the balance effects of that; just throwing it out.

The new unit seems planned to replaced mage (for Rebels), fire/arcane subbed out for purely arcane. Maybe the Quickcaster can have some unique multi-type damage (cold+arcane)...wait, no...would it too strong that way. Maybe a weaker ranged cold damage as it seems to be suggested.

I admit those extreme suggestions are probably too weird though, and might cause just as many SP problems as the original proposal.

The sidebar UI won't be looking that good for those...

[Hejnewar]

HI

I see, half of people dislikes resistances, the other parry. How about I make both of em unhappy?

Maybe if the rebels desperately need something for the drake matchup, maybe the new quickcaster line could get a third attack that deals cold damage? This will also help make them stand out from sorceresses more. / Thematically, I like this proposal. I even wonder if the quickcaster could be balanced with cold + fire damage (maybe even on separate melee/ranged?), and themed as an elemental mage? No idea the balance effects of that; just throwing it out. (see point 1)

I see where you are coming from however there are 2 problems with that:
1) It would weaken the mage by either taking some stats or requiring more gold and the purpose of it is to be very agressive to counteract the neutral and passive nature of rebels in any matchup.
2) I really like the blade resistance, it not only helps in the drake matchup, it also changes here I think importantly vs northerners where 70% archer can finally be used still danregously but as a tank also subverting the for me problematic fact of the matchup sometimes devolving into Elvish Fighter vs Orc Grunt which I really didnt like, also helps to introduce more archers vs knalga and well not so importantly also helps in Rebels vs DF matchup where archer is now wanted as a unit vs Dune Soldier. This one change just solves tons of problems for me.

The result of lower chance to hit vs HI for ranged attacks + mp being raised from 4 to 5 makes the unit feel "fast" compared to what he was before.

Well maybe but is fun to play. How about no quick but fearless?

Could you repost the exact planned lvl2-3 stats of the whole unit line for the thread? I think I saw them a while ago (with the lvl3 having teleport I think) but don't quite remember where.

Currently they just have like more strikes, hp and mp on higher levels and thats it.

L2 Elvish Spellchaser Mage
+ 1mp
+ skirm
+ some strikes and hp

L2 Elvish Spellweaver Mage
+ hp
+ dmg / strikes

L3 Elvish Blink Mage
(short range tp? / to to the enemy? / tp after attacking? / Both?)

L3 Elvish Star Mage (perhaps this name is too garnd and would feel better on L4)
+ hp
+ dmg / strikes (i really shouldnt put aoe on it)
+ it should have something special tho

Here are some old ideas.

I think it's worth repeating your position in this thread so everyone is on the same page.

Well I wont make it higher without some kind of buff. This Xp is fair for this kind of stats. [...] So yeah Lvl ups just like units should cost fair for what they provide.

If it's truly not possible to balance the HI for MP without such drastic and unconventional changes, would it be an option to keep it as-is in 1.18, or even make it a SP-only unit so its numbers won't affect MP? I'd certainly like to see the HI well-balanced for MP, but the proposed changes feel like a steep price to pay.

I just made Sub-Faction add-on sometime ago. You can literally make like Ashvire Loyalists and have whatever you want there. Since people like that approach anyway.

HI again

Honestly I feel like my approach is simpler... Poacher idea maybe is nice if not for the fact that poacher is weak and level up relient.

I sympathize. Everything's painful, and everyone always thinks they know better.

I forgot to answer. Dont worry thats just 2500 interactions to keep track of in default itself. I can do more.

[ForestDragon]

Thematically, I like this proposal. I even wonder if the quickcaster could be balanced with cold + fire damage (maybe even on separate melee/ranged?), and themed as an elemental mage? No idea the balance effects of that; just throwing it out.

Hmmm... fire doesn't seem to really fit the elf theme in my opinion. On the gameplay side, arcane fills the niche of anti-undead damage type well enough, while cold works to fill the anti-drake niche.

1) It would weaken the mage by either taking some stats or requiring more gold and the purpose of it is to be very agressive to counteract the neutral and passive nature of rebels in any matchup.

Well, the elves' cost-efficient ranged option is already the archer. Isn't the point of the Quickcaster to be less cost-efficient in normal matchups, but superior in certain other matchups? (such as undead, and if the bonus cold attack idea is approved also drakes).

Well maybe but is fun to play. How about no quick but fearless?

Personally I am opposed to the current HI ideas on a more fundamental level.

Currently they just have like more strikes, hp and mp on higher levels and thats it.

L2 Elvish Spellchaser Mage
+ 1mp
+ skirm
+ some strikes and hp

L2 Elvish Spellweaver Mage
+ hp
+ dmg / strikes

L3 Elvish Blink Mage
(short range tp? / to to the enemy? / tp after attacking? / Both?)

L3 Elvish Star Mage (perhaps this name is too garnd and would feel better on L4)
+ hp
+ dmg / strikes (i really shouldnt put aoe on it)
+ it should have something special tho

Here are some old ideas.

Overall concept seems decent. For Blink Mage, even the generic teleport can probably work well enough, since it's very rare ability in mainline anyway.

Well I wont make it higher without some kind of buff. This Xp is fair for this kind of stats. [...] So yeah Lvl ups just like units should cost fair for what they provide.

Well, think of it like this - with the current xp the slurbow is OP enough that you think it needs a stat nerf. Then logically it follows that there exists a XP value where the Slurbow's current stats become fair for the xp price at the slurbow's current stats, and that XP value is somewhere above the current value.

[Anekron]

Hi, Hejne. I'll comment just from the SP perspective, as I almost never play MP.

I like the ghoul changes a lot; they sound like they'll make me excited to play the unit, which I almost never was before. I also think the Thunderer discount is a right step, since the unit feels too gimmicky to warrant the high price for me at times.

As I've said before, I'm a big fan of mostly just female elves being able to use magic, but other than that I'm fine with replacing the loy Mage. The archer change strikes me as a bit weird, but I understand the MP reasoning behind it.

I agree that HI needed a rework, but this doesn't feel like it for the reasons others already mentioned; I mostly just feel that parry should be reserved for add-ons. I 100 % agree with Dalas that it detracts from the underlying simplicity of the game and that it isn't the most fortunate practice when one has to check terrain, resistances AND parry before having any idea at all about how a unit will perform. I don't doubt it wouldn't bother veteran MP players that manage their units at much higher level than us mere mortals, but I've introduced Wesnoth to many noobs and the game really isn't that easy to grasp even in it's current state. Wesnoth being accessible was always one of it's strengths, and something that made me return to play it for two decades.

+1 to Dalas' suggestion to scrap Champion's +10 % acc as well to replace it with Marksman

"There's nothing more KISS than stats." -- oh, there is. A lesser amount of stats.

Finally I'm not a fan of cheap Slurbows. I get that they are exciting for MP, but they do detract from my enjoyment of Northerner campaigns, exactly how I feared they will. Archers being ranged and having 3 strikes are much easier to level in SP than Grunts, so while grunts are a viable alternative for MP, the Slurbow spam now can at times feel like some Dwarvish campaigns do when you get a bunch or Lords. I like that the weaker fire would help make undead a bit more of a threat again, but I still would prefer increasing the XP threshold instead (not to the 1.16 value, maybe somewhere in the middle). I feel this issue is an example of unfortunate tension between SP and MP needs.

Won't comment on Dunefolk changes as I barely play them. I can see how Dune Soldier gets more exciting with the parry mechanic, but I still stand by what I wrote above.

[Yomar]

I think That Northern loyals need an unit with fearless trait, after all all other factions have at least one unit that can be either fearless or that is neautral or that can fight on the opposite time of the day.

But I think someone already pointed something similar out about fearless.
And a fully armored guy with a tower shield should have at least a bit of resistances against impact.
Otherwise I think his graphical appareance should be changed.

Why should be this the only faction with no options for the "bad" time of the day ?

And even if I understand why the Elf archer get the blade resistance, I agree with who said that thematically it makes no sense, unless the depiction get changed with him wearing some sort of leather or chainmail armour, and it can be called something like Elven wat Archer.

I find BFW cool also because often the resistances and traits reflect the aspect.

[dwarftough]

Elvish Archer 10% blade is extremely odd: basically no elf unit (and elvish fighter line in particular) has any armour, suddenly, the archer has.

But I need this for balance, sorry.

Mainline has a lot more requirements. It's not just about random stats. More to that, it's a shared library, used by most of the mods, campaigns, etc. So changes to the existing content require much more scrutiny in terms of consistency and aesthetics. And that looks like making random ad-hoc patches in a decent system. And there is a question whether this change is needed at all.

And its not that it now has "armour", it just is better agains that type of damage.

That is the thing, it doesn't have armour, it's just an elf with a bow but for some obscure reason it's better against a certain type of damage. It strikes as very odd and inconsistent.

Oh have they played? I would love to see the replays. Im finally on the other side where I play and people just talk.

Yes, they play, there is Ladder, there is an archive of Wesnothlife tournaments, plenty of replays of serious competitive players. There are also Igor's manual on "how to play", summarising years of high-class 1v1 MP experience.

XP
I think I made my possition clear on that one.

Your position, as far as I understood, is that you can't nerf a Crossbowman without a compensatory buff. My position is that Orcish Crossbowman was disproportionately buffed with both melee and low xp in 1.18. It should be nerfed back a bit, a bit more xp to level, a bit less melee damage.

It has tower shield, the one used in siedges for protection from arrows and stuff. Good enough for me.

That's not dodge. For me it is so weird. But the proposed HI has a larger problem. It violates the KISS principle and produces bad UX because the basic defences of this unit are never applied now. In the UI and in the help menu there are some dodge percenatges but the actual ones are either lower or higher. HI has 50% on castle, it's written in the help menu, it shows when you hover your mouse over a castle hex, but it's never 50%: it's either 40% or 70% depending on the range. So the actual defense is now useless and confusing for that unit. And it's still extremely weird and counterintuitive that a heavily armoured unit dodges arrows with 70% chances in a castle.

I also would like to comment on Dune changes. The use of parry here is again very strange and inelegant. Dune Burner -10% accuracy and -10% parry in melee seems like doing things with new shiny tools. If you want to nerf melee, lower damage. If you want to nerf defense, nerf defense. I don't see why parry or accuracy should be brought here

[Hejnewar]

Isn't the point of the Quickcaster to be less cost-efficient in normal matchups, but superior in certain other matchups?

Actually no. Its point is to be more offensive mage that allows for easier pushes as Rebels. Its "superiority" outside of vs drakes match up pretty much doesnt change.

Well, think of it like this - with the current xp the slurbow is OP enough that you think it needs a stat nerf. Then logically it follows that there exists a XP value where the Slurbow's current stats become fair for the xp price at the slurbow's current stats, and that XP value is somewhere above the current value.

The only problem for me here is that I still compare it with other units and apply the same standard. And it by far is the weakest thus it requires lowest xp.

I mostly just feel that parry should be reserved for add-ons.

I use it for three reasons, it preserves the most (as I can actually contain changes within single unit) (especially since half people here dont want to change resistances cuz thats not thematic), access itself to it simplifies my wrok and limits changes because I can just use different approach and finally imo escpecially negative ranged and positive melee parry does create more interesting matchups.

I don't doubt it wouldn't bother veteran MP players that manage their units at much higher level than us mere mortals, but I've introduced Wesnoth to many noobs and the game really isn't that easy to grasp even in it's current state. Wesnoth being accessible was always one of it's strengths, and something that made me return to play it for two decades.

The only problem with this I have is that I stream and as I mentioned earlier I get first time players just due to the fact that they want to be on stream or something. Yes they do struggle and lose but they dont really have a trobule understanding units and their weaknesses. Maybe its just magic of MP and if someone logs in they passed some kind of check that instantly grents them knowledge but I doubt. So thats my experience.

Slurbows

Buff = more xp.

Yes, they play, there is Ladder, there is an archive of Wesnothlife tournaments, plenty of replays of serious competitive players. There are also Igor's manual on "how to play", summarising years of high-class 1v1 MP experience.

Bruh, replays of 1.20 changes. However thru you answer I can deduce that they didnt. Actually what all those experts balanced in their lives actually when it comes to 1v1? Thats actually well balanced now? I would add played but obviously people dont really play add-ons in a major way right now. Playing and balancing is not the same.

That's not dodge.

Yes thats parry.

My job is balance and creation of engaging and balanced environoment in mp right now. But how many people even played it to even judge that. Quick replay search says no one except me.

I wont respond to the same point 5 times since people use the same argumesnt I already responed to - read. Thats just waste of time.


Edit:
Actually giving hi -10% dodge everywhere and 30% ranged parry is fine.