The Deceiver's Gambit - Revision - Suggestions and Feedback Thread

[Dalas120]

Hello all!

I'm working on a version 2.0 of TDG, taking into account the excellent feedback that you've all provided on both the forums and discord. (I've temporarily taken TDG off the add-on server while I prepare the new version)

My story goals are: (EDIT: all complete! Will release soon)
- {DONE} make Garard less of a caricature, particularly regarding his treatment of Asheviere/Eldred
- {DONE} make Delfador more mature in the second half of the story, while keeping his core flaws
- {DONE} give Lionel a character-defining moment, and make the "Edict of the Sceptre" less self-sabotaging
- {DONE} foreshadow Deoran's death less excessively
- {DONE} bestow Delfador's names (both Delfador and "The Great") in a more meaningful manner
- {DONE} fix the ending, and flesh out Asheviere/Eldred's relationship

This last bullet point is hardest part, and I'm hoping some of you will have some good ideas I can use.

The ending/Asheviere/Eldred tries to bring together all sorts of elements, and it doesn't really do a great job:
- the player needs to win, but Delfador needs to lose, or else HttT makes no sense
- Delfador needs to grow as a person, finally becoming the wise old archmage we know and love from HttT
- set up Asheviere as the main villain. She's not really my character so I don't want to write dialogue for her, so thus far I've tried characterizing her through her effect on Eldred
- justify Liberty's cursed soldiers, and the climactic duel between Delfador and Eldred (currently attempted via the out-of-nowhere "black bottle")
- be a satisfying ending in-and-of-itself

If you have any suggestions, I could use your ideas!

Code: Select all

----WIP Changelog:
changes to dialogue and charcterization across many scenarios
new, animated sprites for Delfador, based on Maksiu's work

difficulty: unit experience now varies somewhat by difficulty: 60%/80%/100%/120%
(I'll be tweaking all aspects of the difficulty, but this is the only part I've done so far)

general: Giant Crab now has a portrait
general: Garard now has both a young and old portrait

S01 gameplay: Rouser traits are no longer random, as the "weak" trait affects a major breakpoint

S02 story: Methor now does a brief "naming ceremony" when he names Delfador

S04 story: Silverback has a smaller sprite
S04 gameplay: puzzle now includes a small amount of gold as a reward
S04 gameplay: replaced sand (Dd) with flad sand (Rrd) to simplify pathing
S04 gameplay: Leopard replaced with Great Wolf

S05 story: Delfador now takes Deoran's warning more seriously
S05 story: new conversation between Arand, Lionel, and Garard
S05 gameplay: increased size of orcish gold pile. This means you get more carryover in S06, reducing the difficulty

S06 story: Lionel now jumps in front of a poisoned dagger meant for Garard
S06 story: Garard's injured units now start with a small amount of XP
S06 story: gave Lionel a cool moment in the ending cutscene
S06 gameplay: Asheviere, once rescued, is now less likely to be targeted by enemy units

S07 gameplay: added an option to skip the stealth section
S07 gameplay: hits-and-misses are now more consistent during the stealth section
S07x story: Arand is now present. Improved characterization of both Arand and Lionel, 
S07x story: removed "kitchen maid" segment

S08 story: Delfador now prefers not to attack the juveniles
S08 story: Delfador now strikes the 2nd defeated saurain by accident, instead of intentionally.
S08 gameplay: on lower difficulties, Poachers now flee after 1 or 2 of them die.
S08x story: Methor is now aged
S08x story: Removed the "Edict of the Sceptre". Garard now has different reasons for sending Lionel after the sceptre
S08x: new reasons for going after the sceptre, and new insight into Lionel's personality

S09 gameplay: replaced Swamp Lizards with Dragonflies
S09 story: fewer [delay] pauses in dialogue
S09 story: fixed "riddiculous" typo
S09 story: Delfador now takes damage when hit during his cutscene (ending HP is unchanged)
S09x story: tweaked Garard's dialogue.

S10 story: open up with music instead of silence. Music after the initial cutscene is unchanged
S10 story: Garard has a cooler line when he gives Delfador his title
S10x story: *major changes*

S11 story: Delfador saves peasants before burning their villages
S11 story: changes to Arand's dialogue

S12 story: Garard now more wholehearted praises Eldred on his handling of Arand's situation
S12 story: Eldred introduces the black bottle in his conversation with Deoran
S12x story: Delfador handles Garard's death more maturely

S13 story: new dialogue for Delfador and Eldred
S13 story: new ending and epilogue
S13 gameplay: Eldred's melee attack now uses the greatsword icon instead of the scimitar icon

[Sire]

I'm still of the opinion that one extra scenario may do wonders for the story, specifically expanding on the victory at the Ford of Abez. This allows for greater Eldred characterization, who acts as the main antagonist in the final act. Asheviere may be pulling the strings and is the ultimate mastermind, but she doesn't need to be in the spotlight of "main villain" for this campaign.
-- If one wants to paint her as the next antagonist (TDG -> HttT, or even TDG -> ?Angel of Ashes?), then an expanded epilogue featuring Asheviere may do the job. It could be from her perspective after learning of Eldred's defeat, or when Delfador tries to run away with Konrad. I'm sure Asheviere will have plenty of screen time in her own campaign, as well as the potential HttT rework (although I may disagree with the new direction of her character).

Going back to my Discord text on the expanded scenario...

Going back to Eldred and HttT, perhaps there can be a single scenario after S10: Clan Blackcrest.
-- Garard has successfully routed the orcs from the Ford of Abez and wishes to pursue and finish them off. However, he leaves this honor to his son, Eldred, granting half of the army to him to ride northwards in pursuit.
-- This way, Eldred gets a chance to get more characterization, and perhaps there can be hints of Asheviere's influence in Eldred when Eldred lets the Orcs go instead of finishing them off. Heck, one can even give an excuse that Eldred's men were wounded/unfit for battle (even though they were attacking Arand during this time), so that's why Garard lends his army to him.
-- This also gives the player a chance to play with their full recall list (Loyalists, Outlaws) before the tragedy hits, and gives Deoran a little more screentime.

Then we return back to the ford for S10x: Revelry, and the rest continues as normal. Garard celebrates his victory and that of his son, and then things happen...
-- This leaves out the epic confrontation between Garard and Eldred as stated in HttT, but keeps the current situation of TDG of where Garard gets cut down due to Asheveire's and Eldred' schemes.

* * * * *

It's your call. Obviously I would pick the new scenario in this situation, but that is easy for me to say since I'm not the one doing the work. It takes a lot of time and effort to make even a single scenario, and even more to make it flow smoothly with an existing campaign. I also know the campaign is seemingly wrapped and finished, so even suggesting to go back and add "one more thing" to a "done project" can be demoralizing.
-- Remember, as The Deceiver's Gambit campaign stands, it is an excellent campaign and doesn't really need anything else. I just had some nitpicks with some of the characterization as it wasn't to my personal preference. Otherwise, it's basically good to go aside from further bugfixes and polishing.

Regarding Eldred, after gleaming the texts from HttT, I always thought him to be a puppet of Asheviere.
-- It was just he was more of a warrior prince instead of a scheming one.

[Dalas120]

I'm open to adding another scenario if need-be, but I feel that adding a whole Eldred-focused scenario might be a bit too much of a tangent. Though I do agree that Eldred really needs more characterization before his betrayal; particularly his relationship with both Garard and Asheviere.

How would you feel about replacing Captain Kestrel's role in S10x with Eldred, to give him and Garard more father-son focused lines?

[Vendrick]

justify Liberty's cursed soldiers, and the climactic duel between Delfador and Eldred (currently attempted via the out-of-nowhere "black bottle")

The lich-blood potion seems fine to me.
Character-wise, I assume Asheviere provided Eldred with a volatile magical item to use as necessary. (Either that or Eldred acquired it himself to due to his fear of Asheviere. In addition, depending on whether Asheviere is still a mage and how skilled she is, maybe she taught Eldred some basics or is otherwise able to intervene from a distance.)
Lore-wise, anything dangerous and loosely Necromancy themed does the job of justifying Liberty's soldiers. The specifics aren't really important.
I think just establishing the item's presence and maybe a reminder would be adequate setup.

the player needs to win, but Delfador needs to lose, or else HttT makes no sense

I think the current approach - where Delfador is on the cusp on success - works well. If TDG is still intended to be played as a prequel to HttT, the player won't be expecting a win anyway. Descent into Darkness is quite popular and its about the bitter failure and self-destruction of its main character (softened somewhat with the additional ending choice). I think leaning into the tragedy would be a better approach.
Even if Delfador achieves some arbitrary victory (Asheviere loses the black bottle and Eldred, her forces are too depleted to attack the Elves, etc.) Asheviere will be in power for over a decade.

flesh out Asheviere/Eldred's relationship

In addition to Eldred, Asheviere also interacts with:
- the Orcs
- Omaranth (Undead drake / ghost)
- Captain Kestrel
- the Saurians (in whatever capacity she learned about their subservience to dragons & then indirectly though Omaranth)
It isn't ideal to use bit characters, but it might help strengthen her outline if the player gets another perspective.

With regards to Eldred, I think Eldred and Asheviere should probably have some interaction on screen - something mundane to demonstrate that while Eldred is cowed by Garard, he's terrified by Asheviere's mere presence.

Another opportunity to characterise Eldred is his whispered conversation with Kestrel in S10x: it could be partly exposed to the player disguised as a conversation about Arand, with the subtext carrying the actual meaning of the conversation.

My impression is that Eldred is motivated by fear of Asheviere and despair rather than ambition and that's what ultimately dictates his actions in the finale. As space for characters is rather tight in the campaign, I would focus on those aspects of the character. Contrast Garard's enthusiasm for battle with Eldred's misery. Emphasise that Eldred can't (and doesn't want to) imagine a positive future for himself; he is resigned to his fate and the possibility of escape is more painful than numb despair.

replacing Captain Kestrel's role in S10x with Eldred

The issue with replacing Kestrel with Eldred in S10x is that if Eldred fails, why wouldn't he have resorted to using the "black bottle"? I'm not opposed to the change, it would just require some tweaks to avoid undermining Eldred's decision in the finale.

[Dalas120]

These are great ideas, thanks! Especially good points about Asheviere and the black bottle. I'll see what I can do to implement (at least some of) your proposals.

[Gweddeoran]

In regards to the story, one thing I will say is that although DM is definitely not a good campaign, I had the feeling that Delfador truly became a 'Great' by the tail-end of the story. By comparison, I feel Delfador doesn't quite accomplish anything meaningful in TDG that would earn him that title.

The only one who would vouch for his 'greatness' would be Garard, and that's a person who is almost universally disliked by his subjects, and ends up killed by his own son, meaning it doesn't hold much weight when it would come to history.
In DM, Delfador defeats both Zorlan the Orcish Sovereign and Illiah-Malal, which cements his place as a mighty mage.
In TDG, although the story is interesting, Delfador accomplishes nothing of note, other than thwarting an attack on the unpopular King Garard. If anything, he kills Arand (which is actually a big mistake), and his best achievment would be killing a fake Drake that's actually an illusion.

The impression I get from the Delfador at the end of TDG is a strong mage well-versed in some unique magic, but definitely not someone deserving of the title of 'The Great' considering he has 0 accomplishments under his belt. Perhaps we should remove the title of 'Great' from his name to account for this in HttT or add weight to Delfador's actions, rather than him being completely fooled by Asheviere all the way to the end.

[holypaladin]

In DM, Delfador defeats both Zorlan the Orcish Sovereign and Illiah-Malal, which cements his place as a mighty mage.

In theory Iliah-Malal is about to take place in another unbulshed yet Dalas' campaining. But in general I agree, TDG looks much like a parody and in addition not very funny.

[Dalas120]

The issue with replacing Kestrel with Eldred in S10x is that if Eldred fails, why wouldn't he have resorted to using the "black bottle"? I'm not opposed to the change, it would just require some tweaks to avoid undermining Eldred's decision in the finale.

This actually gives me an idea - I'm thinking I'll have Eldred get the bottle as "punishment" for failing to kill Arand. That also gives us a way to introduce the bottle before we get to the final scenario, instead of it coming out of nowhere.

The impression I get from the Delfador at the end of TDG is a strong mage well-versed in some unique magic, but definitely not someone deserving of the title of 'The Great' considering he has 0 accomplishments under his belt. Perhaps we should remove the title of 'Great' from his name to account for this in HttT or add weight to Delfador's actions, rather than him being completely fooled by Asheviere all the way to the end.

This is a great comment, and I really appreciate the feedback. My intent was for Delfador to get the title when he defeats the blackcrests and wins the war, but not to properly *earn* the title until the end, when he grows as a character. But I don't think that really came across properly; I'm going to try and make some changes to improve that - I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the revised version once it's ready.

In theory Iliah-Malal is about to take place in another unbulshed yet Dalas' campaining. But in general I agree, TDG looks much like a parody and in addition not very funny.

Not me actually; this would be Yumi's AA (Asheviere's Ascendancy? Angel of Ashes? something like that). But yes, AFAIK Iliah is moved, not gone.

If you have some feedback to help improve the campaign, I'd love to hear your thoughts and make changes in time for the 2.0 release.

[Vendrick]

This actually gives me an idea - I'm thinking I'll have Eldred get the bottle as "punishment" for failing to kill Arand. That also gives us a way to introduce the bottle before we get to the final scenario, instead of it coming out of nowhere.

That would do the trick. I suppose the scene will be placed just after Eldred has killed Deoran so as not to distract from the main events and Deoran's last stand?
The logistics aren't really important, but is Ashievere still in the camp at this stage and has she been carrying the Black Bottle with her?
In any case, to avoid writing dialogue for Ashievere here, it could be delivered to Eldred via some loyal courier or a Ghost.

The only one who would vouch for his 'greatness' would be Garard, and that's a person who is almost universally disliked by his subjects, and ends up killed by his own son, meaning it doesn't hold much weight when it would come to history.

I believe Delfador is a war hero to the King's armies and the player's veterans and that's part of the reason Delfador is popular even if Garard isn't, and is able to muster resistance against the coup.
In the current version, it does seem odd that Delfador decides to retain the title in HttT (regardless of whether or not it was earned) because of how badly things go immediately after getting it. I don't think this is a huge problem, just a minor seam between seperate campaigns.

The impression I get from the Delfador at the end of TDG is a strong mage well-versed in some unique magic, but definitely not someone deserving of the title of 'The Great' considering he has 0 accomplishments under his belt. Perhaps we should remove the title of 'Great' from his name to account for this in HttT or add weight to Delfador's actions, rather than him being completely fooled by Asheviere all the way to the end.

TDG does establish that Delfador also achieves various short-lived victories against the Orcs offscreen (explicitly in The Great River's story text).

If it feels like Delfador hasn't influenced the war much except to save Garard and "win" the war, maybe a few minor tweaks would help:
- modify the story text itself to emphasise Delfador's successes
- a handful of lines for soldiers / player's veterans to establish their respect for Delfador and help convey Delfador's heroics in numerous battles. (I can't really think of any ideal places to slot these kinds of lines before the war ends.)
- stronger reactions from the Orcs (grunts consider fleeing, leaders scramble reserves, etc.).
- a cutscene on the Ford of Abez map where we see a short-lived victory or some heroics from Delfador. (Probably not worth the extra work relative to other options.)

[Gweddeoran]

I went through the entire rework with a focus on plot and dialogue, and here is my feedback:

• The dialogue is a lot clearer overall in conveying the plot points.

• Garard: Although begrudgingly, he is more involved with resolving the conspiracies around him (even if the end result is not fruitful). Self-doubt is also better conveyed- he recognizes that he inadvertently backed himself into a corner with his conquest but can't find a way out without losing face. The better treatment towards Eldred also humanizes him- it appears he was envious of Asheviere and regretted not being able to connect with his son.

• Delfador: Not much has changed, partly because the plot involves him failing to properly recognize and foil Asheviere's traps until things have gone out of hand. However, he does seem a bit less brash and more thoughtful.

• Making Delfador 'Great' Again: Show he is well-appreciated by the citizens and has a connect with them that Garard does not despite the fact that both share a thrill for battle.
  • Delfador could be the more grounded person thanks to Methor's teachings that Garard never had. He can convey the issues the citizens face due to Garard's warmongering, even it falls on deaf ears. Having Delfador be away from Garard for so long on his own quest really limits the opportunities for this, so this should be conveyed on the few occasions he is with Garard in the second half, as he lacks maturity in the first half of the campaign.
  • Build Delfador up to be a people's hero- the soldiers and peasantry look up to him in some capacity. In 'Field Hospital', an injured Spearman might comment something positive about Delfador, of how he gives them hope that there will be some positive end to this war. This should extend beyond just that one scenario though, because we need to be able to see Delfador gain a reputation and become a real hero of Wesnoth, to the point where his clout during HttT actually makes sense.

[Dalas120]

Thanks for the feedback! Gweddeoran, overall do you feel the current version is an improvement? Aside from "The Great", is there anything else you think should be changed?

If it feels like Delfador hasn't influenced the war much except to save Garard and "win" the war, maybe a few minor tweaks would help:

Making Delfador 'Great' Again: Show he is well-appreciated by the citizens and has a connect with them that Garard does not despite the fact that both share a thrill for battle.

My goal with "The Great" - which is hopefully more clear in the WIP iteration than in the previous add-on - was actually NOT make Delfador great because of his achievements, but rather because of his character.

Delfador achieves lots of victories in war; is praised by Garard; has half of a cutscene where all people do is praise him, etc. But then he attacks Arand, Garard dies, and he basically realizes all his achievements mean nothing and he's not "The Great" and gets all sad.

Then Methor shows up, talks to him about greatness not being about achievements or power, but being about owning up to your mistakes, striving to improve, doing the right thing, etc. Delfador rallies, fights back against Eldred, commits himself to atoning for his mistakes, and as part of that properly earns his "The Great" title.

That at least, was the goal. Vendrick, do you feel that's a reasonable goal to have? Gweddeoran, I take it that didn't come through in your playthrough of the WIP version?

[Gweddeoran]

My goal with "The Great" - which is hopefully more clear in the WIP iteration than in the previous add-on - was actually NOT make Delfador great because of his achievements, but rather because of his character.

Delfador achieves lots of victories in war; is praised by Garard; has half of a cutscene where all people do is praise him, etc. But then he attacks Arand, Garard dies, and he basically realizes all his achievements mean nothing and he's not "The Great" and gets all sad.

I understand what you are saying here, but when it comes to titles, they are outward projections of one's character. If the people don't think of him as great, it means they don't see that in his character. What I've suggested in my feedback is that people convey their appreciation for Delfador in some scenarios like 'Field Hospital', not necessarily add to his achievements. I think you might have missed those points in my previous message.

The core issue here, is that I don't see people outside his small party and close aides considering him a great person. What we need to see is the general populace recognizing Delfador (in stark contrast to Garard who is loathed despite both being battle-loving).

Apart from that, I do think the plot is better explained, so if this aspect is accounted for, it would be a good story.

[Dalas120]

What I've suggested in my feedback is that people convey their appreciation for Delfador in some scenarios like 'Field Hospital', not necessarily add to his achievements. I think you might have missed those points in my previous message.

I did see this, but I'm a little hesitant. At the time of 'Field Hospital', Delfador's not especially renowned. He's certainly a significant figure, but no more special than, say, Lionel. What has he done at this point to make him more 'great' than any of the other many war heroes?

Delfador doesn't properly achieve his legendary status until he wipes out the blackcrest army and more-or-less singlehandedly wins Garard's war. I feel that this is conveyed adequately - the entire first half of S10x is various people praising Delfador - but if you feel that's too weak I could certainly add more to that segment.

I do want Delfador to be famous/renowned/etc during this point, while Garard is still alive and he's popular with the army. This is the "pride before the fall", so to speak.

The core issue here, is that I don't see people outside his small party and close aides considering him a great person. What we need to see is the general populace recognizing Delfador (in stark contrast to Garard who is loathed despite both being battle-loving).

I get what you're saying, but I really worry that this would go against the entire character arc I've tried to give Delfador. I hadn't intended "greatness" to be about how "popular" Delfador is, but rather about Delfador holding fast to the trust that Garard and Methor placed in him, and sacrificing the rest of his life trying to atone for his mistakes. Doing the right thing, even when it's hard.

In Methor's words from S12x:
"You call yourself nothing? I call you Delfador the Great!"
"Not for your lost accolades, not for your undone achievements or your false victories or even your mind-boggling magical might."
"No, I call you great because even when the darkness rings close, I know that the apprentice I raised would never give up fighting for what is right."

[Gweddeoran]

I understand your thought process, but then the issue is that Delfador, as you mention yourself, is no greater than Lionel or other characters.
If Methor, who is his teacher and thus knows him well, is the only one who thinks he is great, then how can it be a title that Delfador carries?
It's similar to me suggesting I'm a genius because my professor recognized me in class, but I have no recognition from the wider scientific society and general population.
It sounds arrogant at that point for Delfador to call himself 'Delfador the Great' in 'Heir to the Throne' since he is quite literally the only one (apart from Methor), who acknowledges this title. Even if he is deserving of such a title, it isn't something given to him by the people, but something given to him by his teacher, and thus cannot be flaunted the way it is later on.

Alexander the 'Great' (regardless of whether or not he is actually great), was acknowledged by many people when they noticed his numerous exploits, thus earning him the title, not just his teacher Aristotle. Aristotle may know of his pupil's struggles and determination, but if the people do not notice it, it doesn't make sense for him to have such a title.

[holypaladin]

Why exactly TDG gives Delfador bandit allies instead of royal troops in later scenarios? In HttT we remember him rather as elite on exile then some kind of highwayman...