Galactic Empires (Wesnoth in Space)

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supvsetrt
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Re: Galactic Empires (Wesnoth in Space)

Post by supvsetrt »

dwarftough wrote: November 11th, 2022, 10:08 am
supvsetrt wrote: November 11th, 2022, 9:17 am I just wanted to mention that the barracks upgrade change was great idea in my opinion. It was hardly used before and now it clearly makes sense to use it.
I noticed new update today. Is there some list to see what has been changed?
Dunno if anything changed in the old factions but there is a new faction: Steelhive
I upgraded to 0.4.0 but I dont see Steelhive
dwarftough
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Re: Galactic Empires (Wesnoth in Space)

Post by dwarftough »

supvsetrt wrote: November 14th, 2022, 10:52 am
dwarftough wrote: November 11th, 2022, 10:08 am
supvsetrt wrote: November 11th, 2022, 9:17 am I just wanted to mention that the barracks upgrade change was great idea in my opinion. It was hardly used before and now it clearly makes sense to use it.
I noticed new update today. Is there some list to see what has been changed?
Dunno if anything changed in the old factions but there is a new faction: Steelhive
I upgraded to 0.4.0 but I dont see Steelhive
It turned out to be hidden. All files there, just in Galactic_Empires_Era.cfg file lines 61-71 commented out (# in the beginning). But I saw a game of Bob with Steelhive, probably a test game, so I said to you, without checking
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Bob_The_Mighty
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Re: Galactic Empires (Wesnoth in Space)

Post by Bob_The_Mighty »

There's a new version on the adds-on server now. Galactic Empires 4.6 contains a new Steelhive faction, using Zero's classic artwork. The update also includes a survival map for 1-3 players which is designed to be played against the AI. There were also quite a few little fixes and balancing tweaks. Full details here:
Spoiler:
(Sorry for the confusion with 4.5. The new faction was hidden until we got it working with the GE AI. There's a new version of the AI add-on now so it's all good.)
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dwarftough
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Re: Galactic Empires (Wesnoth in Space)

Post by dwarftough »

The GE survival on Hard done! Mmmax and me on 2 slots. We Steelhive x Steelhive x Dwartha vs AI Iildari x Steelhive x Terran

Destroyed the last Homeworld on the last 30th turn (surviving's still a win, but it's always fun to make some booom, especially with those cool Steelhive planet destroyers)

New Terran ships names are so cool! Looked at the code just out of curiosity how you have implemented it, thought ships should have a distinct race to have another name generator, but your approach is so elegant :D

Btw, Arch Angel doesn't rest heal. It's not catastrophic ofc, just adds a bit to complexity, but I wonder if that's intended. Its side has null controller, and such sides have no rest healing at all (events before the start of the turn just aren't called for nulled sides)
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Bob_The_Mighty
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Re: Galactic Empires (Wesnoth in Space)

Post by Bob_The_Mighty »

dwarftough wrote: December 9th, 2022, 1:48 am The GE survival on Hard done! Mmmax and me on 2 slots. We Steelhive x Steelhive x Dwartha vs AI Iildari x Steelhive x Terran
Wow, good work. I'm intrigued to see how you did it. The fact you took two Steelhive sides suggest they must be holding their own, or were you just exploring the faction? Any feedback on Steelhive units would be welcome. By the way, you can play the map using only two player sides. (It means one player can colonise the empty homeworld. It's probably not exactly balanced, but would be much easier than controlling two sides for a whole game.)

I didn't know that about null sides. But could it be that the station isn't rest healing because there's a turn refresh event that sets its moves to zero each turn? I suppose it would be simpler to change the terrain costs to make it immobile.
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dwarftough
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Re: Galactic Empires (Wesnoth in Space)

Post by dwarftough »

Bob_The_Mighty wrote: December 10th, 2022, 2:01 pm The fact you took two Steelhive sides suggest they must be holding their own, or were you just exploring the faction?
I picked one of my sides to be Steelhive to explore it and the other side and mmmax's side were Random (mmmax got the second Steelhive, my other became Dwartha)
Bob_The_Mighty wrote: December 10th, 2022, 2:01 pm By the way, you can play the map using only two player sides
I wasn't sure that the enemy strength isn't too much if just two players play.
Bob_The_Mighty wrote: December 10th, 2022, 2:01 pm I didn't know that about null sides. But could it be that the station isn't rest healing because there's a turn refresh event that sets its moves to zero each turn?
I had this situation before when there were healers of the null side and they didn't heal so I guess no. But actually I wonder why you need a turn refresh event here, I guess you can just apply an effect to set max_moves to zero.

For Steelhives units I can't yet say any elaborate opinion. Most of the game I played with just scouts and the flagship. Steelhive's scout felt a bit squishy, but that may be because of enemies having fighting ships from the start, also we still managed to repel the most dangerous attack (around 10-ish turns I guess, when Iidari attacked and blockaded one of the homeworlds), just with scouts supported by the leader
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Computer_Player
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Re: Galactic Empires (Wesnoth in Space)

Post by Computer_Player »

"Babe.. a new GE version dropped"
Me: O_O

So here I am.. really excited to test this new version with a new faction even!
Thanks for everyone's hard work.
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Re: Galactic Empires (Wesnoth in Space)

Post by Computer_Player »

First proper game with the new update. The dwarf rush is still quite scary to face (especially now with blockade) and it didn't help that I made mistakes during the planet exploration phase. Prior experience thought me not to face the attack head on with my squishy scouts and so managed to destroy the flagship through a risky maneuver luring the enemy to overextend.

But I was not able to capitalize on the lead and tactical mistakes in the space battle cost me a crucial planet in my heartlands which became the staging ground for the home planet seige.

Observation: the virus level 1 unit is not worth recruiting on tech level 1. It's only use is somehow trading with higher level units or the flagship.

Need more games to form any other opinions for now. Congrats and thanks once again for this big update!
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Re: Galactic Empires (Wesnoth in Space)

Post by Computer_Player »

And 2 more replays for your perusal.

Some comments:

Academy Planetary Upgrade does not list the loyal trait on the units it affects. Not sure if this is intentional or not.

I love the ship naming XD However, I want to have my own names listed for it. Where do I change the name list?

Klegg does not have regen now? I like the change as it was too OP before, but I missed the change log for it i guess.

I really like the surrender feature, gives you view of how things stand at the end.. in the case of the Beta Quadrant replay, I know right at the end of the game that I could have maybe clawed my way back from it but it would take sometime.

Steelhive planetary units do not have access to psionic damage. They are the same in this case to Terrans i supposse, but unlike them they also do not have access to explosive. This could possibly limit their options in clearing planet side aliens.

Certain planets cannot be borrowed into with no flat terrain (Cave planets for example). Not that this is a bad thing, just an observation.

I like that cloak does not give a mv debuff.

Flagship does not boost similar level units. I'm not sure how to feel about this, but I guess it does make things more decisive if you lose your flagship in the early game (aside from the monetary cost, if you don't have high level units to give flagship to, you are forced to fight without one). On the other hand it makes it very diffcult to make a comeback if you lose a flagship early (as I said).

I like the Iildari fighter change. Makes it more beefy and less RNG reliant.

You can hear when others (even enemies) get artifacts.

Need more games with steelhive to comment on the faction as a while, but I feel the planetary units are a bit weak - low hp and gimicky attacks with lvl 1`s having range or melee exclusively. I think giving them a bit more hp to survive attacking would go a long way in balancing them out.
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Argothair
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Re: Galactic Empires (Wesnoth in Space)

Post by Argothair »

Thanks for the new features! Tried the tutorial, the Alpha Quadrant with Terrans vs. Steelhive, and the survival scenario, with me playing all 3 defenders (terrans, steelhive, and the ape-ants) vs. AIs that were mostly steelhive and dwarves.

Overall, obviously the new features make the game much better; the chance of running into neutral aliens on uninhabited worlds means you can't just guarantee that you'll take and hold a world with a single worker or even a single soldier, so that reduces the power of the 'hit and run' tactics I complained about two years ago, where you drop a unit on a world to claim it, then immediately pick it back up and carry it to the next world without pausing. That said, I still think it would be much more interesting to have a colony ship that is expensive and/or consumed by the effort to set up a new HQ on an uninhabited world. In other words, "freighters" and "colony ships" should be two different unit types. Hauling a single worker across the galaxy should be relatively cheap compared to hauling an entire suite of terraforming gear, housing materials, machine tools, and everything else you need to start a brand new colony. Instead, they cost the same, which is less themey and less strategically interesting. At the very least, founding a new colony should cost gold.

The AI is much more interesting to play against; they at least sometimes build new offensive units and attack me. However, I noticed that the AI in the survival game pretty much shut down and rested in place after about turn 9 or so. This was also when I saved and reloaded the game. Is it possible that the AI's behavior has a bug that makes it go passive when you load a saved game?

Finally, I think the steelhive faction is too weak. Their ships' special abilities just aren't powerful enough to make up for their weak combat stats. I agree with Computer_Player that the virus unit is too expensive, the oculus isn't getting enough free HP to make up for its weaker attacks, and in general having a Level 1 fighter ship that only deals damage at one distance and only gets 2 attacks is just debilitating. The probes are worse than all the other Level 1 ships in this era and I don't understand what the steelhive is supposed to be getting to make up for that.
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name
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Re: Galactic Empires (Wesnoth in Space)

Post by name »

Really enjoying the new steelhive faction with its clean and alien appearance and heavy reliance on special abilities distinct from those of the illdari. They are a clever way of re-imagining the undead faction for a space setting. Makes me curious what your science fiction take on the drakes faction would look like.
Argothair wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 7:12 am This was also when I saved and reloaded the game. Is it possible that the AI's behavior has a bug that makes it go passive when you load a saved game?
I have encountered this bug as well. It happens when you reload a GE game after having quit to desktop and restarted wesnoth. Interestingly, only quitting to the wesnoth menu and reloading from there will not reproduce the bug. Also, it does not affect planetside monsters or space pirates, only computer empires become passive.
Argothair wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 7:12 am Finally, I think the steelhive faction is too weak.
Maybe they could get some interesting resistances to compensate? Like all their ships being vulnerable to antimatter but resistant to heat and explosive weapons.
dwarftough
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Re: Galactic Empires (Wesnoth in Space)

Post by dwarftough »

name wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 7:30 pm Makes me curious what your science fiction take on the drakes faction would look like.
Vendeeni?
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Argothair
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Re: Galactic Empires (Wesnoth in Space)

Post by Argothair »

name wrote:
Argothair wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 7:12 am Finally, I think the steelhive faction is too weak.
Maybe they could get some interesting resistances to compensate? Like all their ships being vulnerable to antimatter but resistant to heat and explosive weapons.
That might help! I think what's really missing, though, is some kind of 'heavy infantry' or at least medium infantry that can stand in the line of battle. The Undead faction in mainline has Skeletons and Ghouls. The Steelhive's Probes feel more like Walking Dead to me. Also the Ghouls have poison *and* a reasonable ability to give and receive punishment, whereas the Steelhive virus ships really are just about their poison ability in most matchups; unless your victim happens to be vulnerable to electric attacks, then it's just a really expensive mobile vial of poison.

Here's a replay of me with Terrans against Steelhive and Vendeeni -- I played on the FFA map, but I set it up so that the two AIs would be on the same team against me. It was still pretty easy to win, even though I'm new to the era and figuring it out. The AI at least fought to the end this time. The AI doesn't seem to have a sense of whether it's on offense or defense at any given moment. Like, if you happen to be evenly matched, then, sure, it will build some warships and some transports and some soldiers and give you a hard time. But if the AI is losing, it doesn't adjust that strategy at all; it just keeps building new transports, even when those transports can be easily blown up by enemy warships that are right on top of the spaceport. Similarly, if you invade an enemy planet controlled by the AI, it doesn't shift to building soldiers or bring in more soldiers as reinforcements, at least, not that I can see. It just carries on with business as usual. Still nice to have an AI opponent, but the AI's strategy does need more work at some point.
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Re: Galactic Empires (Wesnoth in Space)

Post by Computer_Player »

New replay, Steelhive vs Terrans in ion Nova. Turn 24 onwards was vs AI which took over after oppoenent surrendered and left.

With this game I think I have a better grasp of Steelhive -> the key to notice here is that their units, despite being quirky, are cheap. Drone is the cheapest military ship - cheaper even than Vendeeni Aphid. And Occulus is 30 (despite its subpar attack and staying power). So if you can trade a drone for almost any other enemy ship, it is generally worth it provided you have a handle on the enemy xp generation. This also means you can sacrifice them to blockade key planets such that they pay for themselves easier.

Occulus line units benefit greatly from targeter, allowing them to make more use of their recharge (drain) ability - however they are best as hex holders in asteroid terrain with a whopping 70% terrain defense there. The only thing better there is a drone staller because they have the same terrain defense and yet are much cheaper. I'd like to have some resistances on this unit to fair a bit better than other fighter type ships of other factions, but that might mean bumping up the cost.

You want to pair the Unique Ship upgrade: Assimilitor with Targeter because you get only 5x1 attack with it. Good targets for assimilation are terran repairship and iildari explorer (your ships need all the healing you can get). Especially good vs survivals I imagine.


Interestingly, Hedron line of ships do not get the ability to get targeter weirdly enough. Not sure why this is though. Their lack of short range retal means that despite their better resistances, they do not operate well alone. Use them to occupy open space when needed in defense. This also means they are a terrible recipient of Assimilitor.

Infector ships I think may have 1 instance you want to recruit them on tech level 1. If you already have enough ships compared to the enemy, you may want to get an infector to threaten to infect their flagship. Especially with non-terrains, it might be enough to tip the favor in your battle locally, forcing the enemy to retreat or play in such a way that the infector does not reach targets. The larger the map, the more useful an infector is - the converse being the same as well.

Steelhive transports are I think 2nd best with Iildari due to that insane vision. Ranking thus from best to least IMO is: Dwartha -> Steelhive = Iildari -> Terran -> Vendeeni.

The unique planet upgrade, I don't see ever being that useful. Unless the radius is increased.. but that would be too much.

The unique HQ upgrade is best used in low food planets as those are the planets impacted by the marginal improvement more. Also they are poor targets of food replicator.

More observations:
I am growing to appreciate the blockade mechanic more and more. It marries the space theatre and the planet economy neatly, directly and immediately. This also means that the scanner ability (and probes) have unique niche of allowing more efficient blockades through snooping without having to commit resources of a partial invasion.

When opponent leaves, the default wesnoth AI takes over, not the GE Ai. I wonder if this could be remedied.

Need more games with steelhive.. I still feel they are missing something, but like I said, I need more games.

If transports can only attack in one hex, you can block the invasion by forcing them to only bring down 1 unit,by blocking around the teleport hex with planet side units. They can't bring down the rest without risking beam down self-kill.

Thanks for reading and hope to see you guys in the lobby.
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Computer_Player
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Re: Galactic Empires (Wesnoth in Space)

Post by Computer_Player »

Argothair wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 7:12 am
That said, I still think it would be much more interesting to have a colony ship that is expensive and/or consumed by the effort to set up a new HQ on an uninhabited world. In other words, "freighters" and "colony ships" should be two different unit types. Hauling a single worker across the galaxy should be relatively cheap compared to hauling an entire suite of terraforming gear, housing materials, machine tools, and everything else you need to start a brand new colony. Instead, they cost the same, which is less themey and less strategically interesting. At the very least, founding a new colony should cost gold.
It's nice to see more and more players enjoy this mod. That said, I disagree with this as it would slow the game down a lot unnecessarily. Perhaps it could be implemented as a "mode" ala survival, but this would obviously need a lot more work to implement too.
Finally, I think the steelhive faction is too weak. Their ships' special abilities just aren't powerful enough to make up for their weak combat stats. I agree with Computer_Player that the virus unit is too expensive, the oculus isn't getting enough free HP to make up for its weaker attacks, and in general having a Level 1 fighter ship that only deals damage at one distance and only gets 2 attacks is just debilitating. The probes are worse than all the other Level 1 ships in this era and I don't understand what the steelhive is supposed to be getting to make up for that.
I think we need more games to test this out, although I am leaning on a slight buff to occulus and infector (I think this ship has potential in the dwartha match up for example) should be enough. Drones are 23 g, which is 1 g cheaper than aphid and have a good dmg spread of 9-2 with good terrain defence. I used to think drones needed something, but once I got used to the idea that they were even more expendable than aphid / scout, they are pretty strong for their price point.

Finally, I hope I am not spamming as I attach a couple of replays and an observation again. The first is a game with Calandryl on Eta Quadrant- pretty standard game with a double starting antimatter ship from Dwartha (me) vs Terran (Calandryl) - game took a decisive turn when his flagship got trapped and was destroyed. Of note is that terraform is bad on snowy and lava intensive planets as they keep hitting those first delaying the payoff of the tech.

Second replay (just extract it, I got it from the replay server) is the 87 turn tutorial which I am attaching. It was by somebody new to the Era and I thought maybe the devs could glean something out of it. Notes are that with the new update, the tutorial is outdated = factions are now 5, GE AI makes it so invading the planet with the units given is not a easy task anymore, and there might be something there about the food store increase not being updated (not sure about this one.)

Anyhow, cheers!
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