Improved The Wilderlands

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Re: Improved The Wilderlands

Post by Lord-Knightmare »

New version. Too easy now...way too easy. Or, maybe Deep Elves are more built for speed as most units are fast and they have no true scout class.
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Re: Improved The Wilderlands

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Lord-Knightmare wrote: September 8th, 2022, 2:30 pm New version. Too easy now...way too easy. Or, maybe Deep Elves are more built for speed as most units are fast and they have no true scout class.
I'm playing a deep elves game in 1.14 still on a huge dominus map. They are a very strong faction.
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Re: Improved The Wilderlands

Post by Lord-Knightmare »

Atreides wrote: September 8th, 2022, 8:53 pm
Lord-Knightmare wrote: September 8th, 2022, 2:30 pm New version. Too easy now...way too easy. Or, maybe Deep Elves are more built for speed as most units are fast and they have no true scout class.
I'm playing a deep elves game in 1.14 still on a huge dominus map. They are a very strong faction.
Which version of DE? there are 2, and they variate a lot.
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Re: Improved The Wilderlands

Post by Atreides »

Lord-Knightmare wrote: September 9th, 2022, 12:17 am
Atreides wrote: September 8th, 2022, 8:53 pm
Lord-Knightmare wrote: September 8th, 2022, 2:30 pm New version. Too easy now...way too easy. Or, maybe Deep Elves are more built for speed as most units are fast and they have no true scout class.
I'm playing a deep elves game in 1.14 still on a huge dominus map. They are a very strong faction.
Which version of DE? there are 2, and they variate a lot.
It's the older 1.14 standalones. They're a lot weaker than the WoL version. I compared. :- )
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Re: Improved The Wilderlands

Post by Lord-Knightmare »

Atreides wrote: September 9th, 2022, 3:04 pm
Lord-Knightmare wrote: September 9th, 2022, 12:17 am
Atreides wrote: September 8th, 2022, 8:53 pm
Lord-Knightmare wrote: September 8th, 2022, 2:30 pm New version. Too easy now...way too easy. Or, maybe Deep Elves are more built for speed as most units are fast and they have no true scout class.
I'm playing a deep elves game in 1.14 still on a huge dominus map. They are a very strong faction.
Which version of DE? there are 2, and they variate a lot.
It's the older 1.14 standalones. They're a lot weaker than the WoL version. I compared. :- )
If you got any suggestions, feel free to post in WoL's thread. I kind of mixed and match Ageless and standalone stats to make them workable as a faction which didn't have the negatives of the previous two.
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Re: Improved The Wilderlands Dragon tamer!

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Atreides wrote: September 7th, 2022, 9:22 pm At first I tried 3 times to play with 100 gp but it didn't work for me (as a medium player). With 200 gp I got a win after a hard fight.
Based on your replay, it looks like you might have an easier time if you keep your forces closer to your leader, moving them as a single squad and abandoning the territory behind you as you go. Since wildlife spawns behind friendly lines, no man can ever truly tame this wilderness.
Atreides wrote: September 7th, 2022, 9:22 pm It did seem that maybe there were a smidgeon too many tameables.
That is something I am a bit worried about, with 20% of spawned monsters being tameable in the latest version. Maybe 15% would be better. In the case of your replay though, I think you may have killed so many of the local hostile monsters that the friendly ones were just most of what was left. ;)
Atreides wrote: September 7th, 2022, 9:22 pm Did notice a graphical oddity which I'm wondering whether it's just a weird interaction with one of my mods or not. Is there some sort of overlay given to the leader when he gets the armour? A white dot in the upper left perhaps?
Yeah, the dot overlay is meant to show other players that your leader has the big quest item. At that point, if you were competing against other players, they would need to slay your lovecraftian horror before it escaped back into the murky depths of the ocean.
Atreides wrote: September 7th, 2022, 9:22 pm 1) Perhaps a optional victory condition whereby the leader can not escape off the 1/4 map edge near where he starts? Force them to pass through one of the other 3 sides to win.
2) In a related vein any plans to allow the AI to win this? I was ruminating that perhaps the AI only needs to reach the AI to win and that some AI directives could be used to have them trek to the armor. I recall reading about them so I think they already are built in.
3) Perhaps fewer tameables but some way for the leader to "deputize" units (for some cost) to be able to tame also?
1) I think going back the way you came is actually harder than escaping directly east or west (a shorter distance) because your starting point is usually long overrun or abandoned by the time your leader reaches the quest item. Maybe I should remove the movement buff the magic armor grants your leader though?

2) Well the [leader_goal] code exists for telling an AI leader to move to a spot on the map, but I will have to test whether or not it can intelligently enough fight its way there or consistently die along the way. Of course, if we went with the kill counter objective idea, then AI players would be able to win for sure.

3) Or maybe allow all units to tame monsters?
Lord-Knightmare wrote: September 8th, 2022, 2:30 pm New version. Too easy now...way too easy. Or, maybe Deep Elves are more built for speed as most units are fast and they have no true scout class.
My guess is this scenario is too hard with Deep Ones and too easy with Deep Elves. Perhaps the default era factions fall somewhere in between?
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Re: Improved The Wilderlands

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I tried played as Undead with Default+Dunefolk era and my Revenant leader got one-shotted by a Jinn that spawned next to him while he was in a keep...this scenario is far from ready to be added to the core multiplayer line-up. A long way to go. Also, Icemonaxes spawning away from snowy places and near warm and hilly places just feels very weird...

Also, Drakes seems to struggle a lot in this scenario as their high recruit cost cannot be compensated by a fleeting economy (rearline villages being taken by monster units). Undead and possibly KA might do well here due to their physical resistance buffs.

UMC factions seem to be doing rather well, in comparison.
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Re: Improved The Wilderlands

Post by Lord-Knightmare »

Here is with Default+Dunefolk era.
Not sure how side 3 gets clapped so early every time but only KA and UD were left standing at the end.
UD is OP is this mode since they are immune to poison, and skeleton/ghosts are very resistance to physical/cold damages which most monsters have.
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Re: Improved The Wilderlands Dragon tamer!

Post by Atreides »

name wrote: September 9th, 2022, 8:49 pm Based on your replay, it looks like you might have an easier time if you keep your forces closer to your leader, moving them as a single squad and abandoning the territory behind you as you go. Since wildlife spawns behind friendly lines, no man can ever truly tame this wilderness.
I actually thought of that as I was playing, not sure if you can see my attempted correction. Yeah, it is hard to let go of villages... :- ) This really is a scenario where you are given the mission of going into an insane nest of monsters and trying to get out with only the treasure. Takes a bit to get used to it.
That is something I am a bit worried about, with 20% of spawned monsters being tameable in the latest version. Maybe 15% would be better. In the case of your replay though, I think you may have killed so many of the local hostile monsters that the friendly ones were just most of what was left. ;)
Maybe just throw the % of tameables into a slider option? Still doesn't address the question of what the default ought to be though... hehe.
Atreides wrote: September 7th, 2022, 9:22 pm Did notice a graphical oddity which I'm wondering whether it's just a weird interaction with one of my mods or not. Is there some sort of overlay given to the leader when he gets the armour? A white dot in the upper left perhaps?
Yeah, the dot overlay is meant to show other players that your leader has the big quest item. At that point, if you were competing against other players, they would need to slay your lovecraftian horror before it escaped back into the murky depths of the ocean.
[/quote]

The dot often flickers on and off (rather annoyingly) so I think there's something there that could be improved. It might be because it is appearing outside of the hex. I used a very similar overlay in the road movement bonus mod. The dot there is either white or red depending on whether the bonus is active or activateable. I placed it straight overhead (12 o'clock position) which is why I finally realized that the dot wasn't the same!

Hehe, yeah that is a rather amusing faction. It was pretty hopeless when I first found it but I think I managed to balance them even though they're a mostly water faction. Plenty of water on this map though.
1) I think going back the way you came is actually harder than escaping directly east or west (a shorter distance) because your starting point is usually long overrun or abandoned by the time your leader reaches the quest item. Maybe I should remove the movement buff the magic armor grants your leader though?

2) Well the [leader_goal] code exists for telling an AI leader to move to a spot on the map, but I will have to test whether or not it can intelligently enough fight its way there or consistently die along the way. Of course, if we went with the kill counter objective idea, then AI players would be able to win for sure.

3) Or maybe allow all units to tame monsters?
Yeah I've found it doesn't matter much which way you try. And of course NSWE are idea since they're nearer and between the sides.

As for all units taming I don't think that's really needed. Too easy I suspect. As is I've realized also that even when not tamed the tameables are allied anyways. The only benefit to taming is that you gain full control. Untamed they're still a great ally!

That also made me wonder and in the current game I've got going (not finished yet, I realized I'd rushed all my previous 4 attempts and I need to take more time before trying to take the armour) I've been watching to see whether the tameable are allied to ALL player sides (appears they are) and whether the hostile monsters are also hostile to all other monsters (I think that is also so)...
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Re: Improved The Wilderlands Dragon tamer!

Post by Atreides »

Atreides wrote: September 12th, 2022, 7:28 pm
name wrote: September 9th, 2022, 8:49 pm Based on your replay, it looks like you might have an easier time if you keep your forces closer to your leader, moving them as a single squad and abandoning the territory behind you as you go. Since wildlife spawns behind friendly lines, no man can ever truly tame this wilderness.
I actually thought of that as I was playing, not sure if you can see my attempted correction. Yeah, it is hard to let go of villages... :- ) This really is a scenario where you are given the mission of going into an insane nest of monsters and trying to get out with only the treasure. Takes a bit to get used to it.
That is something I am a bit worried about, with 20% of spawned monsters being tameable in the latest version. Maybe 15% would be better. In the case of your replay though, I think you may have killed so many of the local hostile monsters that the friendly ones were just most of what was left. ;)
Maybe just throw the % of tameables into a slider option? Still doesn't address the question of what the default ought to be though... hehe.
Atreides wrote: September 7th, 2022, 9:22 pm Did notice a graphical oddity which I'm wondering whether it's just a weird interaction with one of my mods or not. Is there some sort of overlay given to the leader when he gets the armour? A white dot in the upper left perhaps?
Yeah, the dot overlay is meant to show other players that your leader has the big quest item. At that point, if you were competing against other players, they would need to slay your lovecraftian horror before it escaped back into the murky depths of the ocean.
The dot often flickers on and off (rather annoyingly) so I think there's something there that could be improved. It might be because it is appearing outside of the hex. I used a very similar overlay in the road movement bonus mod. The dot there is either white or red depending on whether the bonus is active or activateable. I placed it straight overhead (12 o'clock position) which is why I finally realized that the dot wasn't the same!

Hehe, yeah that is a rather amusing faction. It was pretty hopeless when I first found it but I think I managed to balance them even though they're a mostly water faction. Plenty of water on this map though.
1) I think going back the way you came is actually harder than escaping directly east or west (a shorter distance) because your starting point is usually long overrun or abandoned by the time your leader reaches the quest item. Maybe I should remove the movement buff the magic armor grants your leader though?

2) Well the [leader_goal] code exists for telling an AI leader to move to a spot on the map, but I will have to test whether or not it can intelligently enough fight its way there or consistently die along the way. Of course, if we went with the kill counter objective idea, then AI players would be able to win for sure.

3) Or maybe allow all units to tame monsters?
Yeah I've found it doesn't matter much which way you try. And of course NSWE are idea since they're nearer and between the sides.

As for all units taming I don't think that's really needed. Too easy I suspect. As is I've realized also that even when not tamed the tameables are allied anyways. The only benefit to taming is that you gain full control. Untamed they're still a great ally!

That also made me wonder and in the current game I've got going (not finished yet, I realized I'd rushed all my previous 4 attempts and I need to take more time before trying to take the armour) I've been watching to see whether the tameable are allied to ALL player sides (appears they are) and whether the hostile monsters are also hostile to all other monsters (I think that is also so)...
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Re: Improved The Wilderlands

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Updated the first post with a new version (Alpha-2) focused on making the scenario less challenging. Also computer players will now try to compete with you to take the quest item and win the scenario for themselves.

Changes:
Computer players now quest for the grail
All player units can tame monsters
Raise default gold from 100 to 150
Lower all monster respawn rates to 66%
Further lower Jinn respawn rate to 40%
Replace Great Wolf with Direwolf and lower respawn rate to 40%
Add Black Horse
Add Mudcrawler
Cut Sea Serpent, Giant Spider, Direwolf and Jinn starting populations
Cut annoying armor description message

I apologize for the previously high difficulty level; working on the nightmare mode for Winds of Fate over the summer calibrated my difficulty sense too high.
Lord-Knightmare wrote: September 10th, 2022, 1:55 pm this scenario is far from ready to be added to the core multiplayer line-up.
True. Though right now the goal is only to get it ready for the add-ons server (Beta Phase).
Lord-Knightmare wrote: September 10th, 2022, 1:55 pm my Revenant leader got one-shotted by a Jinn that spawned next to him while he was in a keep...
Now treating the Jinn as a level 3 in terms of respawn rate. It is all at once an agile, durable and hard hitting opponent with a level 3 price tag. Probably should be a level 3 in core, too.
Lord-Knightmare wrote: September 10th, 2022, 1:55 pm Also, Icemonaxes spawning away from snowy places and near warm and hilly places just feels very weird...
Like the Yetis, the Ice Monaxes now descend from mountain peaks, which appear to have snow caps? The idea is to take some pressure off of green castle, which is beside the only fully frozen region.
Lord-Knightmare wrote: September 10th, 2022, 1:55 pm Also, Drakes seems to struggle a lot in this scenario as their high recruit cost cannot be compensated by a fleeting economy (rearline villages being taken by monster units). Undead and possibly KA might do well here due to their physical resistance buffs.
Though monsters with strong impact and fire attacks greatly outnumber those with strong pierce and cold. Plus the drakes have the best healer and outstanding mobility. Personally, I find Undead the hardest, especially against those Jinni which tend to guard the center.
Atreides wrote: September 7th, 2022, 9:22 pm In a related vein any plans to allow the AI to win this?
Turns out this was an excellent suggestion! With the lowered difficulty level and a few tweaks, the AI is able to play and even win some rounds.
Atreides wrote: September 12th, 2022, 7:28 pm Maybe just throw the % of tameables into a slider option?
Can you add custom sliders to the MP scenario set up menu? I did not realize that was possible (though had not looked yet).
Atreides wrote: September 7th, 2022, 9:22 pm The dot often flickers on and off (rather annoyingly) so I think there's something there that could be improved.
Yeah, that flicker is annoying. I will look at moving it over (might look weird on larger leaders like drakes) or try another overlay image. Or maybe it could be replaced with illuminates or darkens ability depending on the alignment of the wielder (lawful or elf gets illuminates, chaotic or dwarf gets darkens)
Atreides wrote: September 7th, 2022, 9:22 pm As for all units taming I don't think that's really needed. Too easy I suspect. As is I've realized also that even when not tamed the tameables are allied anyways. The only benefit to taming is that you gain full control. Untamed they're still a great ally!
For this new version it is a bit different. All your units can tame monsters, but as a result there is a lot more of the computer players taming monsters to use against you.
Atreides wrote: September 7th, 2022, 9:22 pm I've been watching to see whether the tameable are allied to ALL player sides (appears they are) and whether the hostile monsters are also hostile to all other monsters (I think that is also so)...
Your observations are indeed correct. Maybe the scenario objective notes should mention these things?
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Re: Improved The Wilderlands

Post by Lord-Knightmare »

Though right now the goal is only to get it ready for the add-ons server (Beta Phase).
Can you upload it to the Trunk server? easily to install updates of this test addon that. The trunk server is the one people hardly check so it's good for alpha addons.
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Re: Improved The Wilderlands

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Tried the latest and wow it really has a totally different vibe. The sense of doom from turn 1 was absent, it seemed that no mobs spawned near the keep and when they started appearing they were seemingly lower level at first. Then they started ramping up apparently. Dragons, Jinns, Icemonaxes and Bears started popping up after a while. Very nice. The lower monster density at start also meant more clashes with the other players which was nice.

The feeling was more like one had some control over what might happen. Before it felt like pure chaos.

The taming by anyone works out very nicely too. The obvious benefit to the AI for one thing plus it also lets the leaders concentrate on the main task.

The AI is suprisingly quick to get the armour. I think my leader was 3rd to get there. A Steelclad got it (ack) and I mobilized everything to try and halt him. Managed it and killed him too. Then I got stupid and tried trading blows with a Djinn and my leader (Elf Archer) bought the farm. I guess the armour plus being on a village wasn't enough of an advantage after all...

I'd have won but for a moment of impulsiveness, my troops were around to support me and I would have made it out easily.

Interestingly the 3rd leader to arrive at the centre was a Rocklobber which after visiting the goto obj took up residence at the keep. This raises the question of what does the AI do if someone else has already taken the armour? Does it attack the bearer of the ring, uh pardon me, the armour? Will it goto and pick up the armour if dropped?

Anyways this seems to really be shaping up well! Now to actually win for real so I have a replay to post...
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Re: Improved The Wilderlands

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Lord-Knightmare wrote: September 13th, 2022, 1:15 pm The trunk server is the one people hardly check so it's good for alpha addons.
Though according to replays.wesnoth.org it looks like you may be the only one there. ;)

I would not want to jinx the process by saying we are close to Beta, but I think at this point most of the work and difficulties are behind us. Unless we decide to expand the scenario's features in some big way. Or a major bug in the wesnoth engine surfaces as a blocker like with Improved King of the Hill.
Atreides wrote: September 14th, 2022, 12:10 am Interestingly the 3rd leader to arrive at the centre was a Rocklobber which after visiting the goto obj took up residence at the keep. This raises the question of what does the AI do if someone else has already taken the armour? Does it attack the bearer of the ring, uh pardon me, the armour? Will it goto and pick up the armour if dropped?
If someone else takes the artifact then the AI should immediately return to its default combat behavior, going for the nearest castle to recruit a new force and healing its leader at a nearby village. This is so it can recover its strength basically, since during the sprint for the artifact its leader often takes a beating and its forces get a bit scattered capturing villages and punching a hole through the wilderness in support of their leader. Since the new force it recruits is probably close to the ring bearer, and he, being an enemy leader, is already a high priority target for the AI, there is a decent chance they might assassinate him. Especially if he gets delayed by monsters along his escape path.

If the ring bearer dies, then all other AI leaders will immediately rush over to try and grab it. If one of them succeeds, then the above cycle repeats (minus those who died).
Atreides wrote: September 14th, 2022, 12:10 am Anyways this seems to really be shaping up well!
Thanks, I am glad to hear it. And I really appreciate you both doing so much testing to get it to this point.
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Re: Improved The Wilderlands

Post by Pentarctagon »

I suppose this wouldn't work with the plan to put this on the 1.16 add-ons server eventually, but would the new raised/lowered terrain feature that's been added to 1.17 be useful here?
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