Legend of the Invincibles

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Which of these units you find worth advancing and gearing heavily? Unpopular ones will be reworked.

Prophet
51
21%
Reaper
28
12%
Scythemaster
20
8%
Shadowalker
17
7%
Shadow Prince
19
8%
Siege Troll
11
5%
Sky Goblin
4
2%
Snow Hunter
20
8%
Soul Shooter
5
2%
Swordmaster
28
12%
Troll Boulderlobber
2
1%
Warlock
24
10%
Werewolf Rider
5
2%
Zombie Rider
7
3%
 
Total votes: 241

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edwardspec
Posts: 84
Joined: March 29th, 2013, 9:37 pm
Location: Russia

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by edwardspec »

I disagree with some of rankings above, because they are assuming that the unit is attacking, with "it defeats enemy unit as fast as possible" being the highest priority. Balance may be completely different when your units are on a defensive, one of them being repeatedly attacked by several enemies, and enemies can choose melee/ranged depending on what your unit is weak at.

Notably, Pilum Master (which was ranked very low) performs great in such defensive conditions, because it's equally unsafe for the enemy to attack it with both melee and ranged attack. Another factor that wasn't taken into account: with its pierce resistance, Pilum Master happens to be a specialized anti-archer (it shreds archers in melee, but they can't deal with it in ranged combat). Depending on composition of the enemy army, it may be much stronger than was assumed.
imaginary
Posts: 5
Joined: October 29th, 2021, 4:15 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by imaginary »

I'm starting to feel that I maybe overestimated the advantage Elfish assassin has over the other archers. Maybe its not to unreasonable to move champion bowman up to B+ and predator up to B (I think I tore into this unit a bit to much for having bad upgrades, he still has a strong enough bow attack and he is helping me a lot in my challenge run were I'm trying to beat part 2 on hard mode only using chaotic units)
dabber wrote: November 23rd, 2021, 3:53 pm @imaginary Regarding your tier list, I have to strongly disagree on a few of your rankings.
A unit with no ranged attack doesn't belong in a top tier, at least in part 2, because they have to be protected from enemy attacks. The one exception I would allow is Lunatic Knight, because it always gets Hit-and-Run and thus can attack and then hide behind your other units. Therefore I really disagree with ranking Destroyer, Battlerager and Siege Troll that high, no matter the offensive potential.
I really dislike merge attacks, because of the randomness. I want a certain kill, not a 50% chance.
I like Lunatic Knight, but I found it to be unreliable. I altered its AMLAs to make a little better and still wasn't satisfied.

For me, Celestial Messenger belongs in the highest tier for the very reason you denigrate it - versatility. It has great mobility and is good at everything else. Almost no units are good at everything, and that makes Celestial Messenger top tier.

I consider Exterminator much better than Scythemaster and find it odd you put them in the same tier. Exterminator's unique Chaos weapon special is what makes it great. Yes, it requires crafting a leech weapon, but you allowed that. As long as you can persuade enemies to melee (ranged weapon with slow usually works; again craftable if necessary), Exterminator can clear levels.
Maybe its just a play style thing, but I really don't mind units lacking a ranged attack in part 2. For me, as long as I can attack effectively enough it does not matter very much. If your killing the majority of the enemies all of the time, then its fine if your destroyer has to tank 1 fireball demon, because he is able to survive that and have HP to fight another demon next turn. I also try to have at least 10 movement points on every unit, so its not hard to position the no ranged attack dudes out of danger zones; and since they all outrun demons they usually attack then first which minimizes the counter attacks. When theres to many units, I use ether a leader or dedicated defensive unit to block most of their counter attacks so my attacking units can stay out of danger.

Merge attacks missing sucks, but all of the merge attack style units have reliable main attacks to use instead when you need them. For siege troll, sure its a 40-50% chance to hit most of the time, but if you do get that hit the area damage build is killing at least 10 enemy at once; thats a coin flip worth risking. Elvish assassin has focused on exterminate, which makes it way more reliable; predator even has guided. Warlock is the one that does not have anything to increase its accuracy and its not killing entire groups of enemies, but still its a good enough unit even when its not using speed that much; the last time i used a warlock I did not even upgrade speed since I had a super strong normal melee anyways.

I understand why you like the celestial messenger being flexible, I just personally don't like how its preforming later on in the game. I'm watching it heal 16 next to my faerie incarnation whos healing twice that, I'm seeing it not consistently kill even the weak demons which is something all of the other attacking units can do for me. The illumination helps sure, but thats not an exclusive thing, I find my self just not recalling the celestial messenger and instead equipping a few Purity armors on some of my other units and calling it a day. I do think its a good unit, thats why its in the good unit tier but the way I played the campaign it did not stand out as anything more then simply okay to me.

I do agree that the exterminator is a better unit then the scythemaster. I just don't think its good enough to the point were I would raise it up a tier. For the B+ tier, the exterminator is probably the best unit there; I did contemplate putting it (as well as ancient lich and prophet) into the A tier but decided not to mostly because of their increased costs of making good. As for the leeches thing, thats great but since it costs a black pearl to make make the soul render I think its only fair to give a black pearl to the scythemaster too. he can use that to make the marrowind, which is great for him since whirlwind negates the downside of anger and he gets impact + impact penetration making him more consistent; or you can craft a Chaos armor to give him skirmisher so he can get into optional places to whirl (and another attack strike + MP is nice too).

edwardspec wrote: November 23rd, 2021, 4:27 pm I disagree with some of rankings above, because they are assuming that the unit is attacking, with "it defeats enemy unit as fast as possible" being the highest priority. Balance may be completely different when your units are on a defensive, one of them being repeatedly attacked by several enemies, and enemies can choose melee/ranged depending on what your unit is weak at.

Notably, Pilum Master (which was ranked very low) performs great in such defensive conditions, because it's equally unsafe for the enemy to attack it with both melee and ranged attack. Another factor that wasn't taken into account: with its pierce resistance, Pilum Master happens to be a specialized anti-archer (it shreds archers in melee, but they can't deal with it in ranged combat). Depending on composition of the enemy army, it may be much stronger than was assumed.
Pilum master is a good anti archer unit, the problem is that theres basically no archers, or many pierce attacks in part 2 of the campaign. I like him in part 1 but for the second half, I find hes leaving enemies alive to often. I do rank some defensive units (champion, protector and duelist wizard) super high on the list, because I do value their ability to work as defensive pieces a lot; maybe even to much honestly.
Former username: imaginarypotato
white_haired_uncle
Posts: 1093
Joined: August 26th, 2018, 11:46 pm
Location: A country place, far outside the Wire

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by white_haired_uncle »

dabber wrote: November 23rd, 2021, 3:53 pm @imaginary Regarding your tier list, I have to strongly disagree on a few of your rankings.
A unit with no ranged attack doesn't belong in a top tier, at least in part 2, because they have to be protected from enemy attacks. The one exception I would allow is Lunatic Knight, because it always gets Hit-and-Run and thus can attack and then hide behind your other units. Therefore I really disagree with ranking Destroyer, Battlerager and Siege Troll that high, no matter the offensive potential.
I really dislike merge attacks, because of the randomness. I want a certain kill, not a 50% chance.
I like Lunatic Knight, but I found it to be unreliable. I altered its AMLAs to make a little better and still wasn't satisfied.
I wouldn't count out units w/o ranged automatically, especially since Book of Fireballs seems pretty common. My Battlerager with 10 axe attacks, slows, despair, and reflect is a pretty useful tool. He does have hit and run as well, but I don't find that critical, if I didn't have it I'd just make sure I used him when I could advance other units in front of him afterward. I wouldn't try to play an army of BRs, but in many spots he's a great tool for the job.

Merge sucks, except when it doesn't (Old F(r)iend, Dragon and the Princess come to mind).
dabber wrote: November 23rd, 2021, 3:53 pm For me, Celestial Messenger belongs in the highest tier for the very reason you denigrate it - versatility. It has great mobility and is good at everything else. Almost no units are good at everything, and that makes Celestial Messenger top tier.
Yep. Heal +16 isn't the best, but it's handy. I like a lot of healing units so I don't have to micromanage. Burns Foes is also nice, not a game changer but it's 10-15% off the HP of most of your more advanced foes, and it leaves weaker ones as easy kills for the units you want/need to advance. Mobility (flight+speed) is great, mobility+conviction is almost awesome. I'm currently making great use of CMs in chapter 9, flying around collecting loot, or flying (preferably on a non-walkable tile to make max room for my walkers) around behind an enemy unit with powerful resistances. And most of my army is lawful, so improved illumination is a big plus.

While I'm here posting anyway...

https://wiki.wesnoth.org/LotI_Items#Col ... 0.93_sword: New ability: aura of power ???

Nightmare Cellar: Automatically picked up a few items I had no claim to. I notice when I returned there were a few statues that were just bases that I had not killed.

Verminous: Abaddon is taking lightning damage from Efraims whirlwind attack (aimed at an adjacent unit, to slow Abaddon) when he is not supposed to be. He's also randomly (I can't find a reliably reproducible example) un-slowing himself and sometimes even healing (2x attack damage) even when attacked with the correct type.

If you find the Pillar and return to Gathering and approach the Sepulcher, the message about the Pillar is unnecessary.

I'm getting the error in the attached log. The last two times it's been when Efraim's Doombringer scores a disintegrate.

Hmm, Execrable Sanctum in 13 turns with no losses (okay, I restarted the last turn a few times to position myself so I wouldn't lose a gryphon rider who had no place being on the battlefield anyway). That seems pretty good to me. Good, or Doombringer had a few lucky shots.
If you mouse over equality it says 20, not 20%.  FWIW, this is an item that is no longer available to the unit (touch/lich king)
If you mouse over equality it says 20, not 20%. FWIW, this is an item that is no longer available to the unit (touch/lich king)
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dwarftough
Posts: 478
Joined: August 4th, 2019, 5:27 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dwarftough »

Hm, an idea came to my mind: what if you craft Thundering Revenge sword (or maybe axe/scythe), it grants explosive, and then you whirlwind with this weapon? It should hit enemies near the attacker twice: one time for the whirl, one time for the explosion. This craft weapon also makes lightning damage type. But decreases damage (-50% on hard), that's a bit limiting. And probably lethargy will be doubled too.
Co-founder and current maintainer of IsarFoundation, Afterlife Rated and overall Wesnoth Autohost Project
Developer and maintainer of my fork of World Conquest, Invincibles Conquest II
white_haired_uncle
Posts: 1093
Joined: August 26th, 2018, 11:46 pm
Location: A country place, far outside the Wire

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by white_haired_uncle »

dwarftough wrote: November 27th, 2021, 9:13 pm Hm, an idea came to my mind: what if you craft Thundering Revenge sword (or maybe axe/scythe), it grants explosive, and then you whirlwind with this weapon? It should hit enemies near the attacker twice: one time for the whirl, one time for the explosion. This craft weapon also makes lightning damage type. But decreases damage (-50% on hard), that's a bit limiting. And probably lethargy will be doubled too.
Works. I don't see the damage hit as a big deal, at least in the parts of the game where everything has >=50% resistance against most attacks. Lethargy is not doubled.

Looks like wrath only counts for the primary target, and hatred grants damage bonus to whirlwind, but not number of attacks.
Mawmoocn
Posts: 154
Joined: March 16th, 2019, 3:54 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Mawmoocn »

Hi imaginary,

I know it's probably late to say this...

Utility is very tricky to rank... (ablities can do wonders.....)
Spoiler:
I'm confused on how to rank it, do I consider other advance techniques or do I skip? (weapon slots, legacies, advancement choices, many more?)

For example..... I have a Shadowalker that should be obsolete on the latter part of the campaign, but I have supporting units that shreds arcane resistances...... so it goes back to.....?

Then glitches, penetration priority is for the lesser buff, you can't stack or nullify a lesser stack...... so equipment goes "wut?".

And.... conviction and frail tide glitch, it decreases base resistances so........ you can achieve 100% or -100% resistances on steadfast (and related) abilit(ies)y.

...... idk if that was fixed?

As you said, these aren't easy to build.

So...... utility can't be covered by strong attack or defend units. You may need to create these criteria and synergy to X legacy/item/list game feature.... and potential....

It takes a lot of time to create a tier list from nothing, so it's not an actual issue.

I don't know what criteria to use as, I prioritize the value of attack on retalation and I haven't finished playing because, I'm stuck on trying to maximize killing enemy units on retalation, which costs a ton of time...

Some of your ratings will be the same, others, might be .......idk
ANK_Shadow
Posts: 1
Joined: November 30th, 2021, 11:33 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by ANK_Shadow »

As a sidenote, is there anyway to drop gems and items/weapons using debug commands?
dwarftough
Posts: 478
Joined: August 4th, 2019, 5:27 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dwarftough »

ANK_Shadow wrote: December 1st, 2021, 12:35 am As a sidenote, is there anyway to drop gems and items/weapons using debug commands?
Not quite. You may add gems manipulating scenario variables and maybe you can trigger an item drop event from the lua console, but it requires you to know something about underlying machinery. So technically possible, but with a short simple command "add smth" - no
Co-founder and current maintainer of IsarFoundation, Afterlife Rated and overall Wesnoth Autohost Project
Developer and maintainer of my fork of World Conquest, Invincibles Conquest II
Hextroyer413
Posts: 9
Joined: March 28th, 2021, 8:18 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Hextroyer413 »

Is "item juggling" an intended mechanic?
You can abuse the 2 turns of free item exchange to decrease your units move cost through terrain and when fighting in a castle you can switch generic items between units after they have attacked.
Is this meant to happen?
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dabber
Posts: 464
Joined: April 2nd, 2014, 6:41 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

I think Dugi previously said "not intended", but also "play how you like". The feature is necessary in practice so you can equip your army, but in some situations can be quite powerful.

Personally, my opinion is to make use of it. Units spawning from castles is fundamental to Wesnoth, so why not equipment switching?
dwarftough
Posts: 478
Joined: August 4th, 2019, 5:27 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dwarftough »

I remember there was some time, last year I guess, when the 2 turns restriction didn't work at all (afaik only in the first part), that was funny :)
Co-founder and current maintainer of IsarFoundation, Afterlife Rated and overall Wesnoth Autohost Project
Developer and maintainer of my fork of World Conquest, Invincibles Conquest II
NMerz
Posts: 4
Joined: June 28th, 2020, 6:23 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by NMerz »

I believe I have found an issue with the redeem special (always failing) when combined with horrid.

I will include a save where this occurs with Lethalia, but key triggers are:
1) Lethalia has the horrid special for ranged attacks (from Tracking the Lost Knowledge; removing it fixes the problem)
2) The above does not cause an issue until the redeem upgrades to the next level (and, presumably, is readded as a special?).
3) Afterwards, the following section (from redeeming.cfg) appear to operate on the horrid special, not the redeem special, and this causes the alway-failing behavior.

Code: Select all

        [set_variables]
            name=redeem_level_raw
            mode=replace
            [split]
                list=$weapon.specials.damage.id
                key=identified
                separator=" "
                remove_empty=yes
            [/split]
        [/set_variables]
        
Removing and
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Hextroyer413
Posts: 9
Joined: March 28th, 2021, 8:18 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Hextroyer413 »

If you defeat beelzebub in gehenna some of his drops will be trapped in the unreachable walls.
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dabber
Posts: 464
Joined: April 2nd, 2014, 6:41 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

Hestroyer413, About 18 months ago it was changed to automatically pick up items in impassable terrain at the end of the scenario. There is even a FAQ entry for that. I'm pretty sure it works.
Hextroyer413
Posts: 9
Joined: March 28th, 2021, 8:18 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Hextroyer413 »

dabber wrote: December 13th, 2021, 4:18 pm Hestroyer413, About 18 months ago it was changed to automatically pick up items in impassable terrain at the end of the scenario. There is even a FAQ entry for that. I'm pretty sure it works.
Sorry.
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