Scenario Review: DiD 5 - Orc War

Feedback for the mainline campaign Descent into Darkness.

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Konrad2
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 5 - Schism

Post by Konrad2 »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

1.15.6, Summoner (Challenging)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

7, because you are pressed from all sides. I think I just got lucky this time.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Clear.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Taking down the enemy leaders, because having no Dark Adepts hurts my damage output.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

7, unique in the context of this campaign as a fight scenario. :D

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

-

Scenario stats:
Spoiler:
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Mawmoocn
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 5 - Orc War

Post by Mawmoocn »

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

1.14.13, Sumonner (Difficult)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

10

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Err.... I prefer if he doesn't use undead.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Leveling units for a future scenario.
Keeping Dread Bats alive.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

9

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

None?

Well I've looked at the 1.15.7 version and it looks easier? Haven't played though.
Because in reality, you just need Wraith tank or get lucky at Blue Orc Leader (Borth) recruits no Goblin Knight or Orcish Crossbowman and he attacks you so you can kill him fast.
Still unsure because I maximize earning experience on the scenario before this to get 2 Dread bats, 1 upgraded master (Necromancer) and 4 Blood Bats

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
  • I got tired on trying to save all Blood Bats that I just let them go become Dead Bats.
  • I tried to not kill Borth so he summons mobs for me to kill, but I can't kill all mobs that way so he had to perish.
  • I also tried not to kill Borth (again) but kill P'Gareth (Green Orc Leader) so it may get easier to farm mobs but......... well Borth is very aggresive and I lack the firepower to safely do that so ....
  • Orcish Assassin poisons living units and sometimes I restart if they poison enough damage dealing bats.
  • Any Dread Bat that dies and more than 2 Blood Bats.
  • When I somehow finished early, I had to restart this scenario to farm it :lol: ...
  • Sometimes P'Gareth summoned Goblin Pillagers and K'Vark got a Troll and Orcish Crossbowman army that I had to restart.... I forgot what to do once it got safe so my units died .... :lol:
  • Basically when I got overrun with Orcs because I wasn't able to "assassinate" Borth
I basically needed 2 Dread Bats that's already leveled and not 1 exp away because I needed their damage.
So I over leveled the 2 scenarios that you can summon bats.

I skip reviewing the other scenarios before this because it's nearly the same.

The replays for bat level up
Spoiler:
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Kylix
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 5 - Orc War

Post by Kylix »

Why can't we have access to Dark Adepts anymore???
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 5 - Orc War

Post by Lord-Knightmare »

Kylix wrote: December 2nd, 2021, 8:58 am Why can't we have access to Dark Adepts anymore???
Latest revision of 1.15/1.16. I
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 5 - Orc War

Post by egallager »

Kylix wrote: December 2nd, 2021, 8:58 am Why can't we have access to Dark Adepts anymore???
Yumi/nemaara wanted to drive home the point that Malin was being deprived of human contact.
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 5 - Orc War

Post by Kylix »

egallager wrote: December 2nd, 2021, 9:02 pm
Kylix wrote: December 2nd, 2021, 8:58 am Why can't we have access to Dark Adepts anymore???
Yumi/nemaara wanted to drive home the point that Malin was being deprived of human contact.
That's so strange. In 1.14, the adepts make the Parthynians clear they willingly joined Malin's army, just like the Carcynian did in SotA
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 5 - Orc War

Post by Lord-Knightmare »

Kylix wrote: December 5th, 2021, 6:36 pm
egallager wrote: December 2nd, 2021, 9:02 pm
Kylix wrote: December 2nd, 2021, 8:58 am Why can't we have access to Dark Adepts anymore???
Yumi/nemaara wanted to drive home the point that Malin was being deprived of human contact.
That's so strange. In 1.14, the adepts make the Parthynians clear they willingly joined Malin's army, just like the Carcynian did in SotA
Well, the campaign was reworked and in the new revised plot, it's been viewed that Malin would slowly be descending into loneliness and darkness. Thus, DA have been removed. I made due with Skeleton Archers to Bone Shooters and Ghouls and Necrophages, mostly.
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 5 - Orc War

Post by mal_shubertal »

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.16.6 Summoner (Challenging)
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8. LOTS of enemies, very easy to get bogged down, very high enemy leader income, so I had to try many different strategies until I got it right. I also didn't realize the scenario would end after I killed the second leader, so I played too conservatively in earlier playthroughs.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
A bit unclear. The 'twist' of this scenario is that after you kill the second orc leader, the third flees. It's fun as a surprise, but the fact that I didn't know it made me waste time on several playthroughs that didn't make much sense, because I was trying to play more conservatively to beat all 3 leaders. In the end, I went for a pretty desperate rush of the second leader, and was pleasantly surprised when I just won, as I wasn't really sure how I was going to deal with all the trolls coming up behind me. Darken Volk has some dialogue at the end of this scenario telling Malin that orcs were cowardly and likely to flee after a show of force, and I think it would be better to have that dialogue at the start of the scenario, to give the player a hint about how to proceed.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Pretty bare bones. I like the comedy of the orc line "look, the necromancer is trying to talk us to death!" in response to Malin's big dramatic speech, and the orcs getting sidetracked talking among themselves about whether Malin was dead or alive, before concluding, in a very orc-y way, "then we'll just kill them twice!". I feel like Malin's character is a really good depiction of teen angst, both the high ideals with dubious followthrough, the impatience and impulsiveness, and the frustration when nobody takes you seriously.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
playing too conservatively and getting swamped by the ridiculous income of all 3 leaders. I was finally able to win with an all out double-rush.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7. Giving the enemy leaders all very high per-turn income means that you CAN'T play this scenario conservatively, you MUST rush, and there is just something very satisfying about the ridiculous damage output of a first night undead rush. I like that each orc leader has a slightly different recruitment list (the southern one gets pillagers and knights, the eastern one various trolls and assassins, the western one crossbowmen), to give them different flavors and encourage more thoughtful strategy about which to rush first.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Since you have to kill 2 enemy leaders as quickly as possible to win this scenario, and the northwest and southwest leaders are significantly closer to each other than the northeast one, with the northwest leader closer to you than the southwest one, it means there's only two viable strategies, which is to rush the northwest leader, then the southwest, or both simultaneously if you can afford it. It never makes sense to fight the northeast leader at all. I think moving the southwest leader's keep to a more south-central location would be better, because then it would make it equally viable to rush either the northwest or northeast leader first, or even to rush both of them and leave the southern leader alone entirely. More strategic options is more fun.
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
playing too conservatively and getting overrun.

I just want to note, from reading the posts above, I have also been wondering about the lack of adepts and I appreciate all the work that has been put into this campaign. I am also conflicted about this choice, as I can see it makes more sense from a storyline/character development perspective for Malin's loneliness/darkness, but gives a less balanced mechanical experience of the undead faction to players. Luckily, the other undead campaign still has adepts, but they're so central to the undead faction's usual playstyle that it does seem weird to leave them out of this campaign entirely. I wonder if some story work-around would be possible, like they could be brought back in but they could be depicted as all equally self-absorbed, self-righteous, and anti-social, each obsessed with their own random revenge quest and uninterested in his perspective, therefore leaving Malin even lonelier when he's around them. It could also involve Darken teaching Malin to keep himself aloof from them to maintain his position of power/authority, or making him paranoid about the possibility of a coup and therefore encouraging the adepts to compete with each other and not get too friendly.
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JL42
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Re: Scenario Review: DiD 5 - Orc War

Post by JL42 »

(scenario name has apparently changed; now called "Schism")
What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
v. 1.16.10
Summoner / Challenging
How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8
How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Kind of misleading. The objectives say that you have to "kill the orcish leaders," but in reality you only have to kill two of them. This has a major impact on planning and strategy and should probably be clarified.
How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
The dialog and storyline continue to be excellent.

The only real quibble I have here is with the opening story text, where Malin thinks about being "among family and friends in the rustic little town" and reminisces about his "once tranquil, pastoral life." This is obviously false, since his "family and friends" treated him like garbage and the "tranquil" town was constantly at war. It's logical here for the story and Malin's insecure character that he is having doubts and minimizing the townfolks' cruel stupidity, but the way this is presented in the writing makes it sound like it is objective truth. Should be something more like, "Malin's thoughts turn back to Parthyn frequently, and he can't help but wonder if maybe the townsfolk had been right. The town that he still thinks of as his home seems rustic and peaceful in his memory. Self-doubts and recrimination mingle with his anger. He tries to tell himself there's no point in dwelling on it. He tells himself that he has never been one for regrets."

Also, at the end of the scenario when Malin is leaving to pursue the final orc leader, Darken says, "You are more than capable of handing a single, half-dead orc on your own." But, that enemy leader wasn't wounded and still had a massive pile of troops, thus hardly a "single, half-dead orc." This could just be revised to, "You are more than capable of handling the orcs on your own now."
What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The enemies have an endless stream of units, many of which use fire and impact attacks. Their forces tend to build up over time if you don't kill the leaders quickly. I found it to be solidly hard and got my butt kicked several times, mostly because I was trying to fight on multiple fronts. Ultimately I figured out that the key is to aggressively charge one leader at a time.
How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8
What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
The map is pretty great as it is. I think it might be even more fun to put some more time on the clock and require the defeat of all three enemy leaders (would also require some dialogue changes at the end). Since charging at the enemy leaders is the best strategy, you tend to end up in a situation where you kill the second leader, but the last remaining one behind you has taken over nearly the whole map. Would be fun if you then had to turn around and fight that last strong enemy as well.

---------------
About the Overall Campaign:

I was a bit conflicted about how to rate this campaign, because it has some elements that are just completely epically awesome, but other elements that are still glitchy and frustrating. The best parts are the overall story with its nuance and moral complexity, the final scenario concept, and the unique leveling system. A lot of the maps seem to have improved since the last time I played, with more interesting terrain and tactics and new "special objectives"; those changes seem generally great. On the downside though, the implementation of the leveling system has some confusing and frustrating aspects, some of the writing is not up to the story's overall standards, and there are numerous minor glitches, poorly placed objectives, confusing descriptions and events, confusing map clutter, etc. To avoid repetition I'll put the details of leveling issues etc. into the last scenario thread. Overall I'm going to give the campaign 5 out of 5 stars, because I think its awesomeness outweighs the lingering problems. But, it could definitely still benefit from patching up in places.
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