Legend of the Invincibles

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Which of these units you find worth advancing and gearing heavily? Unpopular ones will be reworked.

Elvish Nightprowler
6
13%
Elvish Overlord
0
No votes
Elvish Seer
8
17%
Elvish Warlord
2
4%
Exterminator
5
11%
Forester
1
2%
Goblin Ravager
0
No votes
Goblin Warbanner
0
No votes
Grim Knight
0
No votes
Faerie Incarnation
9
19%
Infernal Knight
2
4%
Lich King
3
6%
Lunatic Knight
5
11%
Monstrosity
0
No votes
Orcish Nightblade
0
No votes
Orcish Strafer
2
4%
Pilum Master
1
2%
Orcish Warmonger
2
4%
Phantom
0
No votes
Predator
1
2%
 
Total votes: 47

dabber
Posts: 378
Joined: April 2nd, 2014, 6:41 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

All AMLAs make the next one cost 20% more xp. Except for the main characters, who take only an 8% penalty.

For example,
Your level 4 needs 100 xp to level
You get another 100 xp, take 'better with sword' for +1 damage with that attack. Now you need 120 xp for next level.
You get another 120 xp, take 'faster' for +1 movement. Now you need 144 xp for next level.
You read Tome of Liches. You get another 144 xp, take 'casting undead spells'. Now you need 173 xp for next level.

WackoJacko
Posts: 53
Joined: June 30th, 2019, 10:08 am

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by WackoJacko »

Sorry, I don't think I explained myself properly, I thought there was an additional 20% penalty on top of the basic +20%

EDIT:
Chapter 2, Scenario 1, playing on Hard (latest version I believe)
Umbra appears twice, once as the leader in the south and again adjacent to my leaders when the scenario begins (although the second one is a basic Elvish Hero). Save attached.
LotI1-The Beginning-Auto-Save1.gz
(380.2 KiB) Downloaded 25 times
Lol nevermind :oops: , its story related :lol: :lol: :lol:

dabber
Posts: 378
Joined: April 2nd, 2014, 6:41 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

Greater Healing Potion is not restoring attacks anymore. On my turn, I attack an enemy. After that fight ends, I drink Greater Healing. I used to be able to attack again, but not now.

New item drop system is definitely different. In part II, I get more better items, mostly. I think I've only see a Claymore (insta-scrap) once.
However, I almost never see a book. I think I have only gotten two books. While I know books are rare, this feels too rare.

ArcTrickster
Posts: 21
Joined: November 28th, 2013, 11:58 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by ArcTrickster »

Hi, after an extremely long time of playing LotI an extremely high amount of times and trying so many different things, I decided to make my first post here to,one, thank all of the contributors for this masterpiece (by far the most favorite campaign in Wesnoth and probably the reason I keep playing this game), and, two, point out certain things that make the experience better for me and maybe for others as well. Let's start:

- Elder Mage. After getting some advancements with lightning, getting arcane pen as well, he gets to chance his arcane type to lightning. Now, this is not always an upgrade. A lot of units have negative Arcane Res, thus making Elder Mage hit less on those targets. Add to that the existing penetration he gets from upgrades and items, on top of things like conviction, most of the time, if not always, you end up losing out on damage. I suggest that the lightning damage is added as a new attack to be used in those few cases where the enemy has like 100% Arcane Res, thus making the lightning useful.

- A lot of units, even though very interesting, are extremely weak when getting to the later stages of the game, fighting demons etc. Units like Duelist Wizard (strong tank but lacks a lot of damage), Elvish Overlord and so on are kinda unplayable after a certain point because they can die instantly, unless you have dedicated your strongest items / craftings on them, and even then, they are still not able to diss out a lot of damage. Maybe reworking their upgrades to make them more viable could be a good thing.

- At the same time, this makes for basically only a handful of strong (extremely strong) units to be used consistently. Dwarvish Battlerager, Elvish Nightprowler with Unrepenting Bow, Swordmaster with terrain + resistance reduction attacks, Elder Mage with huge damage and penetration, Champion for endless tanking (low chance to be hit, 80% Res, healing off of misses) etc. Other units need to be buffed in some way to make them worth using.

- Legacy possessed needs some work as well. A lot of the times it will be an upgrade that is not really useful on the unit, like Fire Dragon on Elder Mage, Lawful on Chaotic units etc. The solutions are to either have the Legacy preknown, so that we know which units to level up (those with the good ones), or have the Legacy system kinda reworked so that certain units cannot gain access to some. Also, I believe there can be more ideas for Legacy lines and advancements.

- Last, I feel there is the need to clear up what is considered a "spell attack" for the purposes of "spells suck 1..." vs "sucks 1...", or when weapons say "increase damage by 20%", but only increasing most melee and some ranged damage. Same for "increasing physical resistances" vs "resistance to blade increased by", which causes some confusion, as increasing blade resistance by 5% is different to increasing blade resistance by 5%.

There are probably other things as well, but these are some form the top of my head right now. If you want more details on anything I said, feel free to ask so that I can give more feedback.
I am the Trickster. And, as you already know, you can NOT trick the Trickster.

dabber
Posts: 378
Joined: April 2nd, 2014, 6:41 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dabber »

ArcTrickster wrote:
February 8th, 2020, 10:50 pm
- A lot of units, even though very interesting, are extremely weak when getting to the later stages of the game, fighting demons etc.
While I tend to agree with your statement, I disagree with most of your examples. I typically value a unit based primarily on how much damage they can deal on the enemy turn, while you appear to care more about performance on your turn.
I love Duelist wizard. Yes, they are pretty useless when the enemy attacks them in melee, but they don't die. On offense, with the right buffing, mine deals incredible damage. Duelist wizard is one of the few units whose offensive damage output is high enough that I am willing to ignore the poor defensive damage output.
I never use the Dwarf Battlerager because I have to protect him from enemy ranged attacks, especially from demons.
I like Swordmaster sometimes, but mainly for slaughtering bosses - Doom attack, Stormrend, Mask of Insanity. I'm sometimes willing to protect him defensively for that benefit.
Champion survives fine on defense, but his ranged damage is quite low and the enemy always attacks him with ranged.
Elvish Overlord is kinda 'meh', and only works against demons if you can get him a bunch of arcane penetration. Or maybe a dragon legacy. I have one right now in chapter 9 that has enough enemy de-buffs that he doesn't get attacked much. Works a lot better in part 1 than part 2.


Your point about legacies has been said repeatedly for years. It is kinda baked into the design. If the legacy is important, you make that the first AMLA and then discard the unit if you don't like the legacy. Once you have some good buffing unit, getting a new unit to first AMLA is pretty fast in most cases.

ArcTrickster
Posts: 21
Joined: November 28th, 2013, 11:58 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by ArcTrickster »

Alright, the Duelist Wizard vs Elder Mage argument.

DW can do Absorb + reflect, which is decent tankiness and damage defensively and basically becomes unkillable with good Res. But there are other units that can defend even better than him (Dwarvish Protector), while also dealing decent damage defensively as well, while not having the need to dedicate strong defensive items on them.

Elder Mage is way better offensively than DW, easily in a position to deal 2-3 times more damage, while also having Doom ability. Defensively, he isn't as strong, which is why you can protect him just a little bit from melee attacks mostly.

I do not see your argument with Battlerager (and that mindset in general). Protecting units is kinda easy. You are already moving as a group of 10-15 units, so you can start off with your Rager going first, killing a high-value target, while staying at near max HP (based on healing itemization), and then he is surrounded afterwards by his own team with their own attacks, progressing forward. His only negative is when having to deal with Lethargy, which is lethal to him if he isn't advanced enough.

I use the exact same build for Swordmaster, 7-8 attacks x2, every boss will get to 0% terrain 90% of the time, with their res being cut to nothing as well.

Champion is EXTREMELY OP. He gets 80% terrain ANYWHERE, therefore the only actual threat is magical attacks. He generally reaches 80% res when defending as well, while also around 150 HP. It's really hard to pin him down in a group. If you also use "mockery / dark sarcasm" on him (healing for 2 HP if enemies miss a shot), he basically becomes unkillable. I had a build where he had 200HP, anger for 2x attacks dealt - taken, soul thrash gloves, absorb 1 or 2. suck 1 and the mockery thing. Even from strong magical attacks, he would only get hit for 10 damage max, and heal 2 of that, and then next turn, he would attack and go to full HP again.

Another late-game strong unit is that Dark Scythe Wraith thing ( I forget its name). Once you stack him up with Arcane Res, he basically becomes unkillable because he gets drain on his melee attacks, and if you pump him with damage and leech items, he is extremely strong.

If I had to pick a line up with 5-10 units, excluding leaders, I'd use:
- Swordmaster tank with trickery + doom, simply for the bosses.
- Faerie Incarnation support build + heal (granting Res to those around her + 34 heals)
- Elder Mage. Super high attack that basically ignores Res, also gets explosive for AoE, decent itemization for defense as well.
- Elvish Nightprowler with Unrepenting, basically the best offensive unit. Stack him with as much pierce Pen and he can deal like 1k+ damage safely
- Champion, as stated above
- Battleragers. Smart build will make them unkillable, if protected correctly.
- Dwarvish Protectors, just for the frontline, especially needed earlier on.

-Outlaws are kinda weak. They are fun to play (Exterminator is fun, Shadow Prince), but they cannot do as much as others. The rangers are also weak.
-Orcs are bad. Warmongers are ok for Mayhem, but anything else is meh.
-Undead are weak defensively. They need very careful itemization to even become relevant and safe.
-Maulers are strong, but still lack defenses and can be blown up easily by a cold attack demon.
-Most Elves are weak, or there are other units that do what they do, but better. Juggernaut is an example of such a pick, but Swordmaster does what he does, but better.
-Humans (Longbowman, Scythemaster) are mostly bad. Maybe Dragon Rider is ok for his charge nuke.

All these units need some shake up in their advancements to make them standout. Like, why would you pick a Longbowman over Nightprowler? They both do the same thing, but NP is 10x better. And there are a lot of examples like these.

EDIT: I care about the damage I do on my turn, because then I know how I can position my units in such a way that I can protect the defenseless ones. Therefore, I want to be in a position to nuke any enemies that get in my way of said positioning. The enemy can then not do much on their turn, since I have an extremely strong frontline that they cannot get past from. Then, next turn, I can just repeat, clear out enemies with my strong attackers, and form a defensive formation with strong defenders. Doing a lot of damage on enemy turn isn't that important, honestly. It doesn't really matter if you bring that enemy demon from 100HP to 50HP on the enemy turn, if you are gonna deal 150+ on yours anyway.
I am the Trickster. And, as you already know, you can NOT trick the Trickster.

Whiskeyjack
Posts: 456
Joined: February 7th, 2015, 1:27 am
Location: Germany

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Whiskeyjack »

Dragon rider falls into the category of: can easily be itemized to strong defense while still doing decent damage and doesn't need penetration because of a varied damage profile (especially with another dragon legacy or legacy of the freezing north). Also great movement speed. Good generalist unit without anything really special.

Duelist Wizard can be brought up to considerable offensive potential due to interactions with Book of Fireballs. Absorb is also crazy strong, you severely underestimate getting absorb(3) basically for free. And teleport is great utility if you split your forces (for me it was always too boring to just build one block of units that run around in the same formation all campaign long...)

Both elvish archer lines can be very good, especially early on, with Thornsword and the penetration armor + a good bow.
Sorceress line needs a lot of AMLAs to be good, but then is one of the best units in the game (so, lategame...).
Juggernaut can be a good ranging (solo) unit for part 1, because it can be built quite defensively while doing ok damage and having strong regeneration.

Dwarvish Hero was nerfed pretty hard, but is still better than Protector IMO (because similar defense, stronger damage, and magical attack). Needs highlander trait to deal relevant damage though. Of course, that only applies once you have a surplus of items, protector can be build into frontline material more easily.
(Also, he gets an extra weapon slot, and there are really good +movement axes lying around. Ironically, the Dwarvish Hero is usually one of my fastest units, because it's also one of the few units that can still use the penetration boots with +2 movement on higher difficulties.)

Strongest unit (if itemized correctly) is still Ancient Lich via ancient lich book with a good legacy. I'd argue that rank 2-4 are held by Elvish Sorceress and the other two lich advancements when going that route (not counting Leth and Ef). 3 extra weapons and a legacy on an undead unit are... pretty decent...
Under blood-red skies - an old man sits -
In the ruins of Carthage - contemplating prophecy.

bobpanda
Posts: 6
Joined: November 19th, 2019, 11:42 am

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by bobpanda »

Whiskeyjack wrote:
February 9th, 2020, 2:35 pm
Dragon rider falls into the category of: can easily be itemized to strong defense while still doing decent damage and doesn't need penetration because of a varied damage profile (especially with another dragon legacy or legacy of the freezing north). Also great movement speed. Good generalist unit without anything really special.

Duelist Wizard can be brought up to considerable offensive potential due to interactions with Book of Fireballs. Absorb is also crazy strong, you severely underestimate getting absorb(3) basically for free. And teleport is great utility if you split your forces (for me it was always too boring to just build one block of units that run around in the same formation all campaign long...)

Both elvish archer lines can be very good, especially early on, with Thornsword and the penetration armor + a good bow.
Sorceress line needs a lot of AMLAs to be good, but then is one of the best units in the game (so, lategame...).
Juggernaut can be a good ranging (solo) unit for part 1, because it can be built quite defensively while doing ok damage and having strong regeneration.

Dwarvish Hero was nerfed pretty hard, but is still better than Protector IMO (because similar defense, stronger damage, and magical attack). Needs highlander trait to deal relevant damage though. Of course, that only applies once you have a surplus of items, protector can be build into frontline material more easily.
(Also, he gets an extra weapon slot, and there are really good +movement axes lying around. Ironically, the Dwarvish Hero is usually one of my fastest units, because it's also one of the few units that can still use the penetration boots with +2 movement on higher difficulties.)

Strongest unit (if itemized correctly) is still Ancient Lich via ancient lich book with a good legacy. I'd argue that rank 2-4 are held by Elvish Sorceress and the other two lich advancements when going that route (not counting Leth and Ef). 3 extra weapons and a legacy on an undead unit are... pretty decent...
But how can I get an ancient lich? As far as I know, there's no chance to get a dark adept or a necromancer...

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lhybrideur
Posts: 108
Joined: July 9th, 2019, 1:46 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by lhybrideur »

Isn't there a book allowing a dying unit to turn to lich ? Tome of Liches I think.

Whiskeyjack
Posts: 456
Joined: February 7th, 2015, 1:27 am
Location: Germany

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Whiskeyjack »

bobpanda wrote:
February 10th, 2020, 6:43 am
But how can I get an ancient lich? As far as I know, there's no chance to get a dark adept or a necromancer...
Exactly as explained above. You get a Tome of Liches, give that to a unit, take a couple AMLAs from the book (until you get the one "becomes a lich upon death"), then you let the unit die et voilá... you have a lich.
Under blood-red skies - an old man sits -
In the ruins of Carthage - contemplating prophecy.

nachkar
Posts: 47
Joined: December 26th, 2015, 1:01 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by nachkar »

That lich equipment thing, if I remember correct, was :

mage of light (mace+staff) ==> pophet(mace inherited + staff sword spear) ==> lich trough legacy or book (inherited mace sword spear + staff and otherworld legacy or if lichking, axe and xbow)

correct? or is it some other/new way?
(and is it not possible trough legacy anymore? since you guys only mention the book)

Whiskeyjack
Posts: 456
Joined: February 7th, 2015, 1:27 am
Location: Germany

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Whiskeyjack »

Legacy of Undeath should still work, but this way you lose the legacy the lich would otherwise have. The other way to get three items is Exterminator (scythe, knife, dagger), although you'll have to craft to get anything useful out of that.
Under blood-red skies - an old man sits -
In the ruins of Carthage - contemplating prophecy.

bobpanda
Posts: 6
Joined: November 19th, 2019, 11:42 am

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by bobpanda »

Whiskeyjack wrote:
February 10th, 2020, 1:29 pm
bobpanda wrote:
February 10th, 2020, 6:43 am
But how can I get an ancient lich? As far as I know, there's no chance to get a dark adept or a necromancer...
Exactly as explained above. You get a Tome of Liches, give that to a unit, take a couple AMLAs from the book (until you get the one "becomes a lich upon death"), then you let the unit die et voilá... you have a lich.
Alright, thank you very much!

dwarftough
Posts: 33
Joined: August 4th, 2019, 5:27 pm

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by dwarftough »

In 10th chapter you receive a loyal Dark Sorcerer from the start so you can get a lich traditional way. But only one time :)

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Ah_Morre
Posts: 5
Joined: June 6th, 2015, 1:28 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Legend of the Invincibles

Post by Ah_Morre »

Hey I (finally) just finished the campaign, and I just want to thank you for your great and glorious work, this add-on is absolutely great, with so many new features and a well designed story, thanks for providing hours of entertainment!

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