Reworking/Revising The Sceptre of Fire

This is the place for discussing development of mainline campaigns, reporting bugs in them and providing overall feedback.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

User avatar
doofus-01
Art Contributor
Posts: 3855
Joined: January 6th, 2008, 9:27 pm
Location: land of boot-licking, craven prostitutes posing as senators

Re: Reworking/Revising The Sceptre of Fire

Post by doofus-01 »

BTIsaac wrote:
November 28th, 2019, 3:01 pm
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
November 27th, 2019, 1:44 pm
I disagree, honestly. Knockback isn't even all that weird an ability.
Of course the word i was looking for was "gimmicky" but if you say it's okay for mainline then I'm going to take your word for it.
Knockback sounds gimmicky to me too. I suppose it could be animated in a way that makes it appear less so, but I'm assuming it's not there yet. It could cut down on frustration with cave bottlenecks, but how can it not be gimmicky if there is a chasm or allied unit behind the defender? You can come up with special rules for everything, but that doesn't make it good.

EDIT: Hah, apparently scouts are available already in the first scenario, like skeptical_troll said, must have gotten distracted by the big fluffy griffons. :whistle:
BfW 1.12 supported, but active development only for BfW 1.13/1.14: Bad Moon Rising | Trinity | Archaic Era |
| Abandoned: Tales of the Setting Sun
GitHub link for these projects

User avatar
Celtic_Minstrel
Developer
Posts: 1593
Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 11:26 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Reworking/Revising The Sceptre of Fire

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

BTIsaac wrote:
November 28th, 2019, 3:01 pm
Of course the word i was looking for was "gimmicky" but if you say it's okay for mainline then I'm going to take your word for it.
I mean, I've seen a lot of games with knockback in them, I think? So it doesn't feel all that gimmicky as an ability in general. Now, whether it can be reasonably implemented in Wesnoth might be another story; like doofus mentions, there are a lot of edge cases to consider.
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
Maintainer of Steelhive.

User avatar
doofus-01
Art Contributor
Posts: 3855
Joined: January 6th, 2008, 9:27 pm
Location: land of boot-licking, craven prostitutes posing as senators

Re: Reworking/Revising The Sceptre of Fire

Post by doofus-01 »

I've opened a PR for my ideas of what should be done: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/pull/4609
Even if you can't download and test the PR'd branch, you can still browse the changes and comments.
BfW 1.12 supported, but active development only for BfW 1.13/1.14: Bad Moon Rising | Trinity | Archaic Era |
| Abandoned: Tales of the Setting Sun
GitHub link for these projects

User avatar
Ravana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2365
Joined: January 29th, 2012, 12:49 am
Location: Estonia
Contact:

Re: Reworking/Revising The Sceptre of Fire

Post by Ravana »

If by knockback is meant what steelhive has then I have made sure it does
- consider defender max_moves
- check movement cost on destination hex
- check villageness of source hex
- check no unit on destination hex
- manually add xp for the interrupted fight

User avatar
Paulomat4
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 720
Joined: October 16th, 2012, 3:32 pm
Location: Wesmere library, probably summoning Zhangor

Re: Reworking/Revising The Sceptre of Fire

Post by Paulomat4 »

Caladbolg wrote:
November 26th, 2019, 4:04 pm
EDIT: Dwarvish Miners could also be given a digging ability: allow them to enter cave wall hexes at a full mp cost, and the ability that triggers at the beginning of the turn if they're on a cave wall hex, turning it into a cave hex. "Gathering materials" scenario could be made more interesting with this, and you could also open up some new tactics in other scenarios.
Just wanted to chime in and add that the miners in my add-on Campaign have a very similar ability that can be activated by a right click menu.
If anyone wants to try this mechanic, it is in scenario 10 (go there with :cl ).

I also think adding a witness hero unit would make make the campaign feel too similar to THoT, so I would not be a fan of this.
Creator of Dawn of Thunder and Global Unitmarkers

"I thought Naga's used semi-automatic crossbows with incendiary thermite arrows . . . my beliefs that this race is awesome are now shattered." - Evil Earl

User avatar
Celtic_Minstrel
Developer
Posts: 1593
Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 11:26 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Reworking/Revising The Sceptre of Fire

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

...since when did steelhive have knockback?
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
Maintainer of Steelhive.

User avatar
Ravana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2365
Joined: January 29th, 2012, 12:49 am
Location: Estonia
Contact:

Re: Reworking/Revising The Sceptre of Fire

Post by Ravana »

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
November 29th, 2019, 1:37 pm
...since when did steelhive have knockback?
It was before my time.

User avatar
skeptical_troll
Posts: 443
Joined: August 31st, 2015, 11:06 pm

Re: Reworking/Revising The Sceptre of Fire

Post by skeptical_troll »

Instead of new units with abilities, how about some item with specials the players can choose whom to give to? There is so much fuss about Thursagan being a badass smith, I guess he must have crafted some artifact to use in times of need. It could be a chance to characterize him a bit more , beside offering some gameplay options to the player.

Whiskeyjack
Posts: 454
Joined: February 7th, 2015, 1:27 am
Location: Germany

Re: Reworking/Revising The Sceptre of Fire

Post by Whiskeyjack »

Caladbolg wrote:
November 26th, 2019, 4:04 pm
If you're planning on adding RPG elements, I think they should be small, difficult to use, and fit in with the lore. A unit that can make adjacent units move faster would be a bit much imo. How about making it so that Runesmiths can set up runes that give special abilities? It would make sense lore-wise, and there is mainline precedent for stepping on runes granting something special.

So, for example, if a Runesmith stands still for a turn or two, he can set up a rune of your choice, and a unit that steps on it would be granted some bonus. The difficulty here is in obtaining Runesmiths and in the time needed to set up runes. Bonuses can be things like healing a unit by X(%) hp, slightly modifying stats, or (and I prefer this one) granting an extra trait for the duration of the scenario. Not overpowered, not easy to get, but can be a neat and useful addition to lore and gameplay. It would also give a bit more reason to get Runemasters, considering they are largely inferior to Steelclads.
skeptical_troll wrote:
November 29th, 2019, 9:15 pm
Instead of new units with abilities, how about some item with specials the players can choose whom to give to? There is so much fuss about Thursagan being a badass smith, I guess he must have crafted some artifact to use in times of need. It could be a chance to characterize him a bit more , beside offering some gameplay options to the player.
Gotta say, I really like these ideas and they might give more flavor to the campaign than simply adding another unit type! :-)

skeptical_troll's idea could also be used to deepen the lore about Thursagan's hammer, as someone else suggested.
Under blood-red skies - an old man sits -
In the ruins of Carthage - contemplating prophecy.

BTIsaac
Posts: 395
Joined: December 7th, 2017, 7:30 am

Re: Reworking/Revising The Sceptre of Fire

Post by BTIsaac »

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
November 29th, 2019, 1:37 pm
...since when did steelhive have knockback?
We're talking about mainline here. From what i understand, gimmicky abilities don't go well with mainline, but in UMCs, anything goes.

User avatar
Celtic_Minstrel
Developer
Posts: 1593
Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 11:26 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Reworking/Revising The Sceptre of Fire

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

Yeah, but when I was working with steelhive, I'm pretty sure they didn't have knockback.
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
Maintainer of Steelhive.

User avatar
nemaara
Discord Moderator
Posts: 287
Joined: May 31st, 2015, 2:13 am

Re: Reworking/Revising The Sceptre of Fire

Post by nemaara »

@doofus-01 I tried the latest set of revisions on SoF. In general, I'd say so far so good, I just have a few comments for some further gameplay improvements.

1. Adding the carts is a nice touch that helps out a bit in the cave scenarios. I'm thinking adding a couple more carts to said scenarios would be even better, to allow more of your units to zoom around on the rails.

2. The battles are still a little bit large in a lot of the scenarios, enough that it gets to drag on for a while. I'm not opposed to some scenarios with more enemies (like S5/6), but I'm thinking total gold values should be reduced for things like S1, S4, and maaaybe S2p5.

3. The unit diversity is still a tad low to me. What if we added a new unit like a "Rune Novice" that levels into the Runesmith line, a "Rune Adept" line (ranged damage + maybe some utility), and a "Rune Alchemist" (grants nearby units +1 movement at start of turn)? This might offer some fancier gameplay and the addition of the Rune Alchemist might make the dwarves feel slightly less sloggy overall.

4. Along the same lines, some of the maps could possibly be a little smaller (S3, possibly S5/6). Turn limit could be reduced correspondingly, perhaps except for S6.

User avatar
doofus-01
Art Contributor
Posts: 3855
Joined: January 6th, 2008, 9:27 pm
Location: land of boot-licking, craven prostitutes posing as senators

Re: Reworking/Revising The Sceptre of Fire

Post by doofus-01 »

nemaara wrote:
January 2nd, 2020, 5:37 am
3. The unit diversity is still a tad low to me. What if we added a new unit like a "Rune Novice" that levels into the Runesmith line, a "Rune Adept" line (ranged damage + maybe some utility), and a "Rune Alchemist" (grants nearby units +1 movement at start of turn)? This might offer some fancier gameplay and the addition of the Rune Alchemist might make the dwarves feel slightly less sloggy overall.
Hrmm, that might be stepping on the existing rune-smiths, as far as variety. Ulfserkers aren't really used, I guess they could be worked in somehow. Instead of a new unit, maybe some special items like skeptical_troll suggested would be best? Would certainly be easier to implement.
BfW 1.12 supported, but active development only for BfW 1.13/1.14: Bad Moon Rising | Trinity | Archaic Era |
| Abandoned: Tales of the Setting Sun
GitHub link for these projects

User avatar
nemaara
Discord Moderator
Posts: 287
Joined: May 31st, 2015, 2:13 am

Re: Reworking/Revising The Sceptre of Fire

Post by nemaara »

Could be stepping on rune-smiths, I'm not sure. I forgot about Ulfs, they would be nice to add in. Items would be good too, but the problem with dwarves, I feel, is that most of their units don't have any special abilities and are more or less slow meatwalls that are mostly good at holding mountainous terrains. It doesn't seem that fun to me.

If the problem with adding new units is the actual addition of them, I don't mind making them for SoF (supposing there aren't other reasons to not add them). Of course, for the actual sprite drawing, I expect that you'll be much better at that, but I can also draw some preliminary ones.

User avatar
doofus-01
Art Contributor
Posts: 3855
Joined: January 6th, 2008, 9:27 pm
Location: land of boot-licking, craven prostitutes posing as senators

Re: Reworking/Revising The Sceptre of Fire

Post by doofus-01 »

nemaara wrote:
January 2nd, 2020, 11:11 pm
is that most of their units don't have any special abilities and are more or less slow meatwalls that are mostly good at holding mountainous terrains. It doesn't seem that fun to me.
I thought that too, the guardsmen certainly don't add anything, and it doesn't take too many rounds of dwarf fighters and trolls clumsily bopping each other before you start questioning your life choices. But playing this campaign made me appreciate the thunderers; they always seem to miss when it really counts, but they do help break things up, and I recruited more of them than anything else.
nemaara wrote:
January 2nd, 2020, 11:11 pm
If the problem with adding new units is the actual addition of them, I don't mind making them for SoF (supposing there aren't other reasons to not add them). Of course, for the actual sprite drawing, I expect that you'll be much better at that, but I can also draw some preliminary ones.
From my end, the issue is that my time to work on this is drawing to a close, and for a new unit, we'd have to put some real thought into the design - it almost seems like a whole project in itself. Items would just be quicker, and (I think) any gimmicks would be more easily accepted by the players. If "hero clutter" is an issue, we can have the units drop the items when they die, so the item isn't necessarily lost.

EDIT: Looking at the scenarios again, I can address the other points.
2. The battles are still a little bit large in a lot of the scenarios, enough that it gets to drag on for a while. I'm not opposed to some scenarios with more enemies (like S5/6), but I'm thinking total gold values should be reduced for things like S1, S4, and maaaybe S2p5.
You may be right, but they seemed about right to me and I'd be reluctant to make them much easier (especially S1 and S4). I should say I only tested this on normal difficulty, maybe the EASY-NORMAL-HARD spread needs to be bigger?
Along the same lines, some of the maps could possibly be a little smaller (S3, possibly S5/6). Turn limit could be reduced correspondingly, perhaps except for S6.
- S3 size seems about right to me. Sending dwarf expeditions out there would be really tedious, but if you just use dwarves to control the cave/fort region, and have Alanin and Krawg zoom around the empty expanse, it all makes more sense.
- S5 has a fairly small active battle region, the wasted space to the east and southeast is useful to keep Krawg out of the way (if SoF or dwarves in general need another revision, it's to rethink this whole gryphon business).
- S6 is similar to S5, but the space between the start and goal, with unfavorable terrain, is part of the challenge. I'm pretty reluctant to shrink that down.

EDIT2: I've opened a PR for giving Thursagan the ability to dispense a few things boosting unit stats. https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/pull/4688
Last edited by doofus-01 on January 6th, 2020, 4:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: link to PR
BfW 1.12 supported, but active development only for BfW 1.13/1.14: Bad Moon Rising | Trinity | Archaic Era |
| Abandoned: Tales of the Setting Sun
GitHub link for these projects

Post Reply