Unit Names

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Pentarctagon
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Re: Unit Names

Post by Pentarctagon »

Pagawan wrote:
November 24th, 2019, 12:49 pm
Pentarctagon wrote:
November 22nd, 2019, 1:14 am
Pagawan wrote:
November 17th, 2019, 9:57 am
Pentarctagon wrote:
November 15th, 2019, 3:50 am
We're not going to be renaming core units that are used by who knows how much UMC without a very good reason, regardless of anything else.
I thought the game was committed to always improve; from units basics (hp, resistances, animations etc), the world (maps, terrain etc), GUI etc. Surely even the names could be always improved (where necessary). The Wesnoth Community have seen such changes happen (most currently on dunefolk) across various units types, especially for Ageless Era. I'm pretty sure the few Default factions wouldn't end the world if some changes were implemented.
You have to demonstrate how it would be an improvement though. In this case, changing the unit's name would likely affect many people's add-ons, and in exchange the "man" part of the name would be removed from units that can only be male in-game anyway. That doesn't seem like a worthwhile trade-off.
We all have to agree the names (and game in general) are not perfect.
The game has indicated a presence of different languages and tongues used by the various races found in Wesnoth (an example is that river Arkan-thoria *spelling might be wrong*. It has a different name to the Elves, Humans and I believe orcs too). This can be expanded to include some of this units names. The current naming trend is very much bland and unimaginative. Wouldnt it be so much more exciting and immersing to explore wesnoth while discovering units from different races, not only with good looking avatars traits etc but also unique names that tickle the players sense of adventure? :geek:
How does removing "-man" from unit names accomplish that, though?
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Mawmoocn
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Re: Unit Names

Post by Mawmoocn »

Man is originally gender neutral, so it boils down to whether you want the "-man" out.

Gender neutral, gender personality, role concentration, are the potential reasons for removing or personalizing gender specific roles, either with the "-man" or without.


The current model somehow follows race and role neutral names but, it won't apply for every unit line.

Common gender equal/neutral suffix used other than "-man", is "-er" or units having a role/profession based name.

This is apparent for Elvish units (except for Shyde, Sorceress and upgrades, Marksman, Marshal and Lord?), Orchish units (excluding Crossbowman, Warrior and upgrades) to name a few.

Shaman is valid to either male and female, and closely related to being gender neutral.
Swordsman is considered gender neutral, though most (not all) fantasy settings mainly use male counterparts to depict the role.

Depending on cultural norms, it might be biased closely to resemble on what's been used in their country/everyday life, and that may be biased to one gender or the other.

Fantasy or works of fiction, has likelihood to introduce fancy words that can influence deep immersion to novels and games if they fit the "world" they belong to.



I kinda like the idea of creating personalized gender roles like Swordmaiden (Female Swordsman) if they grant functionality or having neutral names like Dwarvish Guard(er?)/Soldier/Protector (Dwarvish Guardsman).

Basically, I like cool sounding names :lol:.
Shiki
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Re: Unit Names

Post by Shiki »

Don't forget that the unit names are also translated into other languages.

Using invented languages or names is not going to get well transferred into the other 10 languages.
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Pagawan
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Re: Unit Names

Post by Pagawan »

I do not approach this based on gender. My argument is that these Races each have their uniqueness and identify themselves based on their own dialects. For example, I would not see a situation where the egoistic Elves would ever refer to themselves using the suffix/prefix "man" given the term maybe used by other races to refer to humans specifically. The same can be argued for the knowledgeable Dwarves who take great pride in their craft of smithing great weapons and armour.
Relate the above with real history where soldiers using similar weapons, armour, fighting styles etc, had different names originating from their local languages (Greeks & Romans).
Not every name has to be translated. For example the Japanese Samurai is simply known by that name in every language. This is applicable here.
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Celtic_Minstrel
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Re: Unit Names

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

So basically you're viewing "man" as referring to, very precisely, a human male, while Wesnoth is using it more generically to refer to a humanoid male. It's hard to compare this with real-world usage, given that there exists only one humanoid race in the real world.

However!
  1. It's precedented for certain words to refer to a male (or female) of one of several species, and sometimes not even closely-related species. For example, "bull" could mean cattle, an ox, a whale, an elephant or a seal. Similarly, "doe" could be a deer, an antelope, a squirrel, a rabbit, a hare, or even a kangaroo. So using "man" to refer to a dwarf or elf (especially when qualified by the race name – a "dwarf man") isn't really a stretch in comparison.
  2. I haven't analyzed in any detail, but I think this usage is already precedented in works of fantasy.
  3. From a hypothetical scientific standpoint, elves and dwarves are so similar to humans that they would probably be very closely related species. In some settings you could actually argue that they are the same species. (Of course this doesn't work in all settings, and I don't know if it could be the case in Irdya.)
There does not exist in English a unique word for "dwarf male" or "elf male", or indeed for "dwarf female" or "elf female". So what's the problem with using "man" and "woman"?

Now, I'm not saying there's no room for change. If someone does propose different names for the Dwarvish Guardsman, or the Elvish Marksman, or the Goblin Spearman, or the Merman Spearman, or the Orcish Crossbowman, then maybe it could be changed. But there's also backwards compatibility to consider, as changing unit names will break any addons that use those units, so you're gonna need to also present a very compelling argument to make that change.
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Mawmoocn
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Re: Unit Names

Post by Mawmoocn »

Pagawan wrote:
December 1st, 2019, 11:39 am
For example the Japanese Samurai is simply known by that name in every language.
Based from this (correct me if I’m wrong), you want a profession based name like Pirate Leader converted to Pirate Captain.


Basically I think you want "job" names without the "-man".

Real world example is: foreman to supervisor/manager, mailman/postman to courier, policeman to cop.
Pagawan wrote:
December 1st, 2019, 11:39 am
For example, I would not see a situation where the egoistic Elves would ever refer to themselves using the suffix/prefix "man" given the term maybe used by other races to refer to humans specifically.
From my personal standpoint, if I’m fighting those creatures in real life, I won’t call them by their profession or what they refer themselves by, especially if they’re my enemy.

Like if I know dwarves are from the mountains or caves, from a neutral standpoint I’ll call them underdweller, short man with bulky things, and some people who came from far away mountains... :lol:

If hostile, I’ll be sure to refrain from acknowledging their given profession, you’d hear many insults that mock their names or given profession.

Basically, enemy A and enemy B professional (job) names aren’t final unless there’s some history involved.
Spoiler:
Edit: Actually Khalifate was recently redesign/reworked to Dunefolk and most Khalifate units have personalized untranslated (not sure) "job" names. The reworked Dunefolk, renamed most units to use profession names that are quite familiar to most "job" names

**Edit2: Added something on spoiler.

Edit3: Fixed wrong quote...
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Pagawan
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Re: Unit Names

Post by Pagawan »

[/quote]

Nice idea if that was your original intention.

[/quote]
👍
shevegen
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Re: Unit Names

Post by shevegen »

I think even aside from gender, this idea is a bit problematic.

Ideally the unit name provides the player with simple means to remember what a unit may do or excel at.

Like "archer". We could assume that this would be someone with a bow. Then we could have human
archer, elvish archer, orcish archer. Right?

Then we may have a "mage". Typically orcs and trolls may more have shamans ... humans may have mages,
elves have sorceresses ... it's all a bit random. But people are quite used to it too, and ideally the name should
not be too long.

The name Dunefolk is a bit better than Khalifate, even aside from reallife history - Dunefolk sort of implies
that it is a folk living in/near dunes, aka sandy parts.

> Like if I know dwarves are from the mountains or caves, from a neutral standpoint I’ll call them underdweller,
> short man with bulky things, and some people who came from far away mountains...

Yeah, but I think one other part is how the "game engine" should call a unit. That should ideally be objective
and neutral, when possible; the storyline and background can make for differences.

> Now, I'm not saying there's no room for change. If someone does propose different names for the Dwarvish
> Guardsman, or the Elvish Marksman, or the Goblin Spearman, or the Merman Spearman, or the Orcish
> Crossbowman, then maybe it could be changed. But there's also backwards compatibility to consider,
> as changing unit names will break any addons that use those units, so you're gonna need to also
> present a very compelling argument to make that change.

I don't care much either way myself. Either way, though, I would recommend to actually tie this into the
wesnoth game-history, while allowing flexibility for customization. That way you don't have to really
think about any changes because the default refers to wesnoth - and others can customize things for
their own campaigns. Then they can have female dwarvish guards, female spearman, and female goblin
warladies. Either way I think it is better to tie it to the game-history, than to use ad-hoc statements that
could go either way (I think "man" is perfectly fine to refer to male - and if you want more female roles,
add more female heroes!).
Mawmoocn
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Re: Unit Names

Post by Mawmoocn »

shevegen wrote:
January 2nd, 2020, 9:47 pm
I think even aside from gender, this idea is a bit problematic.

Ideally the unit name provides the player with simple means to remember what a unit may do or excel at.
I’ve reread his proposal and based on my own interpretation, he wants unit names relative to their given faction/alliance (basically job names closer to a given language and country/alliance/culture) like how presidents and emperors are “equal” (relative to their own country) but holds different “weight” (not sure how to explain this) when you compare a king and a prime minister.

It’s kinda like how you use a class name that uses relation to their background (it can contain backstory of where they lived or the aspects that defined their given profession) but in this case, they share a common culture/trait to define them as one alliance/something.

Basically it’s trying to create a distinct “identity” using unit names like how Elves (“shaman”) and Humans (“white mage”) have completely different names for their healer line.

In my opinion, personalising unit names to fit one faction can be challenging as there might need to invent pseudo/imaginary words. It’ll need tons of brainstorming to fit a certain narrative, while it does have a chance to increase familiarity, it can sacrifice growth on other parts of the game or help create a (hypothetical) ”culture” (story) to be deeply engrossed (fantasize) with.

So it may increase unit familiarity or exclude it depending on how it goes.

shevegen wrote:
January 2nd, 2020, 9:47 pm
Yeah, but I think one other part is how the "game engine" should call a unit. That should ideally be objective
and neutral, when possible; the storyline and background can make for differences.
If the aim was to make a standard naming sense, neutral unit names would fit as a good measure when no other name would fit.

Anyways, if you want better integration on the game itself, you may need names that would have different “flavors”, but it’s not a guarantee that it’ll work.

I’m fine with whatever so I don’t mind if it gets changed.
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