Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Discussion of all aspects of multiplayer development: unit balancing, map development, server development, and so forth.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Locked
User avatar
Xalzar
Posts: 290
Joined: April 4th, 2009, 10:03 pm
Location: New Saurgrath

Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Xalzar » March 11th, 2019, 12:03 am

The_Gnat wrote:
March 9th, 2019, 10:49 pm
We are continually working on this but it has been a pretty massive undertaking. It is nearly complete now (but since we said that a month ago I don't expect you to believe me this time ;) ).
And also just prepare yourselves in advance because we have written about 20 pages (maybe more) about the new DF faction and the reasons behind the changes. We will of course give a short summary for everyone who doesn't want to read it all. ;)
I've been lurking for some time, anxious to know more about this project.
With these premises - months of work and 20 pages of changes and motivations - you have set expectations quite high. Let's hope I'm not set up for disappointment! :P
Small footnote: that this much work was needed to finally improve and balance this faction speaks big volumes about the state in which the faction was originally released. Just an interesting observation. :whistle:

User avatar
The_Gnat
Posts: 2078
Joined: October 10th, 2016, 3:06 am
Contact:

Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » March 11th, 2019, 12:37 am

Xalzar wrote:
March 11th, 2019, 12:03 am
I've been lurking for some time, anxious to know more about this project.
With these premises - months of work and 20 pages of changes and motivations - you have set expectations quite high. Let's hope I'm not set up for disappointment!
Small footnote: that this much work was needed to finally improve and balance this faction speaks big volumes about the state in which the faction was originally released. Just an interesting observation.
It is nice to know there is still a lot of interest in this project! :) And yes with so much work it will be very exciting for us as well to finally get the communities feedback!

And you are very right, the original DF was quite unbalanced. It struggled in a number of areas but overall I have to believe it must have lacked enough testing or perhaps some of the units were incorrectly designed because some of the game play and match ups were just plain broken. ;)

Also part of the reason it has taken us so long is because we have gone through considering all the ideas the community put forward to decide what is most balanced. (we still haven't yet finished deciding haha xD )

User avatar
ghype
Posts: 825
Joined: December 13th, 2016, 4:43 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by ghype » March 11th, 2019, 9:20 am

Initially, the release date was before the end of 2018. But then I went into vacation where i do work (I work on this only in university) - so it is more or less my fault fo the initial delay of the release as I couldn't finish the posts.

But as I released that this is gonna take much longer then expected (as I did the visual rework as well) - I started to contact Pentarctagon privatly on discord to give him short updates at then end of January and at the beginning of March. His responses never indicated any need for an urgent share of ideas on our projects.

I certainly could have shared more concrete details of what we were currently working on at the time as sharing these details on a private chat is something else then making here public - but Pentarctagon never asked for more concrete updates.

Shiki
Developer
Posts: 276
Joined: July 13th, 2015, 9:53 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Shiki » March 11th, 2019, 12:11 pm

Surely there will be different opinions… but maybe this way things don't get buried and not implemented like in some other threads.
Introduction to WML filtering and WML variables.

User avatar
ghype
Posts: 825
Joined: December 13th, 2016, 4:43 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by ghype » March 11th, 2019, 2:34 pm

well. to be fair our document exceeded the character limit of 60.000 for a post 2 times already. So there there are defintly going to be multiple posts for this, if not multiple new threads for this topic

User avatar
Pentarctagon
Forum Administrator
Posts: 4103
Joined: March 22nd, 2009, 10:50 pm
Location: Earth (occasionally)

Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Pentarctagon » March 11th, 2019, 3:20 pm

Since this is coming up, I didn't ask anything specific about what was being done because it's all going to have to be reviewed regardless - this isn't a "suggest whatever you want and we'll implement it without asking any questions" blank check, even if most or even all of it does end up getting implemented. So as long as there are people willing to put this amount of effort into balancing the Dunefolk, it makes more sense (to me) to wait until there's a complete and concrete proposal. If we were just going to shoot ideas around for some tweaks, then the thread would work for that, but this sounds like it will be a pretty wide-ranging overhaul.

Personally I'm also more interested/concerned that the faction's theme does not get altered drastically as well, since while that was the one real limitation I told Hejnewar about a while ago on Discord, it's always possible that was overshadowed and forgotten while this rework/overhaul was being done.
99 little bugs in the code, 99 little bugs
take one down, patch it around
-2,147,483,648 little bugs in the code

User avatar
The_Gnat
Posts: 2078
Joined: October 10th, 2016, 3:06 am
Contact:

Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » March 11th, 2019, 8:20 pm

Pentarctagon wrote:
March 11th, 2019, 3:20 pm
Since this is coming up, I didn't ask anything specific about what was being done because it's all going to have to be reviewed regardless - this isn't a "suggest whatever you want and we'll implement it without asking any questions" blank check, even if most or even all of it does end up getting implemented. So as long as there are people willing to put this amount of effort into balancing the Dunefolk, it makes more sense (to me) to wait until there's a complete and concrete proposal. If we were just going to shoot ideas around for some tweaks, then the thread would work for that, but this sounds like it will be a pretty wide-ranging overhaul.

Personally I'm also more interested/concerned that the faction's theme does not get altered drastically as well, since while that was the one real limitation I told Hejnewar about a while ago on Discord, it's always possible that was overshadowed and forgotten while this rework/overhaul was being done.
Thanks for your comments Pentarctagon, yes we definitely respect that this will need to be reviewed, hence the excessively long doc we have been working on.

As for the theme we haven't significantly altered it at all. In fact as far as we are concerned the only theme changes necessary would come from addition of new units to the faction which should be explained through lore of some kind. Other than that we have primarily focused on balance and also reworked the sprites of a few of the units. You will notice some inconsistency in the faction sprites currently, ghype has done a great job improving these. But of course this also will be open to feedback from the community.

User avatar
Celtic_Minstrel
Developer
Posts: 1569
Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 11:26 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » March 12th, 2019, 12:48 am

ghype wrote:
March 11th, 2019, 2:34 pm
well. to be fair our document exceeded the character limit of 60.000 for a post 2 times already. So there there are defintly going to be multiple posts for this, if not multiple new threads for this topic
If the conversation does split to additional threads, please be sure to link to those threads from here to ensure that I don't miss them.
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
Maintainer of Steelhive.

User avatar
The_Gnat
Posts: 2078
Joined: October 10th, 2016, 3:06 am
Contact:

Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » March 12th, 2019, 5:17 am

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
March 12th, 2019, 12:48 am
If the conversation does split to additional threads, please be sure to link to those threads from here to ensure that I don't miss them.
Yes definitely! :D

User avatar
The_Gnat
Posts: 2078
Joined: October 10th, 2016, 3:06 am
Contact:

Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » March 25th, 2019, 8:41 pm

Hello Everyone we are proud to announce the DF rework has just been released! See the Index here:

https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=49630

Now go click the links and read what we have done!!!!! :D



PLEASE DO NOT USE THIS THREAD TO POST ANYTHING ANY MORE! Please post on the specific threads I have linked! :)
Last edited by The_Gnat on March 25th, 2019, 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
ghype
Posts: 825
Joined: December 13th, 2016, 4:43 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by ghype » March 25th, 2019, 9:10 pm

also, can we we please close this thread?

User avatar
Pentarctagon
Forum Administrator
Posts: 4103
Joined: March 22nd, 2009, 10:50 pm
Location: Earth (occasionally)

Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Pentarctagon » March 25th, 2019, 11:54 pm

Locked.
99 little bugs in the code, 99 little bugs
take one down, patch it around
-2,147,483,648 little bugs in the code

Locked