Secrets of the Ancients (Undead Campaign)

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beetlenaut
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients (Undead Campaign)

Post by beetlenaut »

gweddeoran wrote:
March 7th, 2019, 3:54 am
Ras-Tabahn's Siege of Elensefar?
Yep! Elensefar didn't get turned into a city of dark magi though, so Ras-Tabahn must have failed. Someone needs to write that scenario (from the point of view of the defenders) and show how Ras-Tabahn got defeated. It would make a good one-scenario campaign, which we need more of.
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients (Undead Campaign)

Post by gweddeoran »

Do you think he died? Or did he run away, joining the group of uber-powerful liches in hiding- Ardryn-Na, Mal-Keshar et al?
(Post his failed attack)

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beetlenaut
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients (Undead Campaign)

Post by beetlenaut »

gweddeoran wrote:
March 9th, 2019, 1:21 pm
Do you think he died? Or did he run away, joining the group of uber-powerful liches in hiding?
I was thinking that he died. If that scenario existed, it would probably have "Defeat the enemy leader" as the win condition after all. I wouldn't mind of someone invented a different story for him though. The only problem I see with him running away is that uber-powerful liches in hiding could start to look a little too common.
Campaigns: Dead Water,
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients (Undead Campaign)

Post by gweddeoran »

I had a couple of suggestions to make-
  • In the boat scenario, I think it may be a good idea to replace the Sailors with Fencers and the Sea Captain with a Master At Arms, but reduce their number to account for the stronger leader and more evasive soldiers he has compared to before. This might be a good idea since the sailors don't seem to have sprites that exactly match mainline campaigns and also since we almost never see Master At Arms as leaders. (It would also make sense since Fencers and their advancements seem like the type to take boat journeys often.)
  • I think this can allow you to use the Death Knight instead of the custom unit Bone Captain for the resurrected Leader of the boat. This might look better than the latter and be more valuable as a Loyal unit. You also won't need to frankenstein a portrait then! :P
  • Revenants advancing to Death Knights is bit overpowered, especially on Easy, since the Undead are already quite strong compared to their adversaries owing to their resistances (most often), and the Leadership negates their major disadvantage, i.e, daylight. In fact, I had several Death Knights by the end of the campaign which made things excessively easy for me. I think a single Death Knight, in the form of the Loyal unit mentioned before might be sufficient, and also increase his value to the player. (25% Attack Bonus to Level 1s isn't exactly the most usefulability ever.)
  • The fact that all Liches can become Ancient Liches seems rather odd. Wouldn't that mean there are now several who can oppose Adryn-Na's power? I would think it would make sense for only her to be able to reach such a level, and not the others (Maybe Ras-Tabahn). This is akin to 'Wings of Victory' where only the Fire Drake who is the Leader, Galun, can advance all the way to Armageddon Drake and not the others. (The same applies to 'Descent into Darkness', where the same advancement can occur post 1.14.6. I am aware you are not the maintainer for this campaign but I thought it would be a good idea to mention it anyway.)
  • Also, 'Make into Lich' sounds a bit informal, could it be something like just be 'Lichdom' along with an icon of the unit in the Right-Click Menu followed by a dialogue such as- 'Does unit_name wish to attain lichdom?'
Thanks

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octalot
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Re: Ras-Tabahn's Siege of Elensefar

Post by octalot »

Ras-Tabahn's journey to Elensefar would take him through Carcyn. How would you feel about the idea of some of the dark adepts that he recruited at Carcyn deserting (or even mutineering) when they get there and meet their relatives?

I'm assuming that most of Elensefar's soldiers died during Against the World, and looking for reasons why Ras-Tabahn's army could have looked strong enough to continue when Ardryn-Na left them, but weakened before reaching Elensefar.

Edit: this would give a reason for necromancers to be in the Grey Woods since 23 YW. The other campaigns that might link to that are many years later, in 363 YW (A Tale of Two Brothers) and 501 YW (Liberty).

Edit2: I don't think I'll create the scenario, but I got a bit carried away with the map-tracking. Attached for anyone who wants, a before and after of Against The World.
Attachments
journey.cfg
(13.26 KiB) Downloaded 150 times
wesnoth_against_the_world.png

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beetlenaut
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients (Undead Campaign)

Post by beetlenaut »

gweddeoran wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 3:32 am
the sailors don't seem to have sprites that exactly match mainline campaigns
That's a reason to work on the sprites instead of change the scenario.
gweddeoran wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 3:32 am
Revenants advancing to Death Knights is bit overpowered
Maybe. I would consider taking out the Death Knights, but not changing the bone captain. A unit we've never seen before is better than one we have.
gweddeoran wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 3:32 am
The fact that all Liches can become Ancient Liches seems rather odd.
I think it would be more odd if only some of them could. It's actually a tactical decision though. It takes a massive amount of experience to get all the loyals to that point, so a lot of other units are not advancing. If it's not the loyals, then you are paying a lot of upkeep too.
gweddeoran wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 3:32 am
Also, 'Make into Lich' sounds a bit informal
"Become a Lich" would be better for now I guess, but I was already planning on changing it to "Ascend". (I'm working on the dialog for some other scenarios and it will make more sense in light of that.)
octalot wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 3:06 pm
I'm assuming that most of Elensefar's soldiers died during Against the World
I don't know why. It's only the knights, and they could have come from Dan Tonk or Weldyn. Either one of them would have been closer than Elensefar.
octalot wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 3:06 pm
How would you feel about the idea of some of the dark adepts that he recruited at Carcyn deserting (or even mutineering) when they get there and meet their relatives?
I can't see their relatives accepting them after the city was decimated.
Campaigns: Dead Water,
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BTIsaac
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients (Undead Campaign)

Post by BTIsaac »

beetlenaut wrote:
March 9th, 2019, 1:35 pm
I was thinking that he died. If that scenario existed, it would probably have "Defeat the enemy leader" as the win condition after all. I wouldn't mind of someone invented a different story for him though. The only problem I see with him running away is that uber-powerful liches in hiding could start to look a little too common.
Actually i was playing around with a story idea, that involved him and his disciples travelling south and establishing an undead empire far south, and eventually returning to post silver age Wesnoth.

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Re: Secrets of the Ancients (Undead Campaign)

Post by beetlenaut »

BTIsaac wrote:
March 11th, 2019, 9:07 pm
Actually i was playing around with a story idea, that involved him and his disciples travelling south and establishing an undead empire far south, and eventually returning to post silver age Wesnoth.
Sure, if you want. But, at the end of SotA his plan was to do exactly that in Elensefar, so you would have to deal with that somehow.
Campaigns: Dead Water,
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients (Undead Campaign)

Post by BTIsaac »

beetlenaut wrote:
March 11th, 2019, 10:11 pm
Sure, if you want. But, at the end of SotA his plan was to do exactly that in Elensefar, so you would have to deal with that somehow.
I figure they gets beaten at Elensefar, flee and end up in the far south. Part of the reason why i made a thread on the Sleepless Sea, was because the idea was that they would cross it and settle in the deserts south of that large bay (the only map of that region calls the area the Ashland Desert - but that's UMC).
octalot wrote:I'm assuming that most of Elensefar's soldiers died during Against the World, and looking for reasons why Ras-Tabahn's army could have looked strong enough to continue when Ardryn-Na left them, but weakened before reaching Elensefar.
How about this: the mages of Alduin join the defenders. Ardyn-Na knows them better and without her, Ras-Tabahn ends up underestimating them. Also, while they can overpower a larger army, i imagine laying siege to an island fortress is a bit different. His disciples don't strike me as the models of competence either.

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Re: Secrets of the Ancients (Undead Campaign)

Post by octalot »

beetlenaut wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 11:44 pm
octalot wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 3:06 pm
I'm assuming that most of Elensefar's soldiers died during Against the World
I don't know why. It's only the knights, and they could have come from Dan Tonk or Weldyn. Either one of them would have been closer than Elensefar.
Thanks, that makes it much easier to explain how Elensefar manages to win. Having the mages from Alduin also sounds good.
beetlenaut wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 11:44 pm
octalot wrote:
March 10th, 2019, 3:06 pm
How would you feel about the idea of some of the dark adepts that he recruited at Carcyn deserting (or even mutineering) when they get there and meet their relatives?
I can't see their relatives accepting them after the city was decimated.
Nor can I, but I can see some deciding that they'd prefer to be outcasts hiding in the Grey Woods, rather than following Ras-Tabahn to either world domination or a second death while trying for it. Carcyn being the point when they've had a couple of days to realise that the ones who stayed with Ardonna made a good choice, some of them are familiar with the local geography, and they slip away instead of fighting people that they know.

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Re: Secrets of the Ancients (Undead Campaign)

Post by beetlenaut »

octalot wrote:
March 11th, 2019, 11:44 pm
they slip away instead of fighting people that they know.
That makes plenty of sense.
BTIsaac wrote:
March 11th, 2019, 11:36 pm
His disciples don't strike me as the models of competence either.
Yeah, not really. He also doesn't care about them individually at all. Ras-Tabahn is actually supposed to be a bit of a sociopath. (I'm not sure if that comes across in the dialog though.)
Campaigns: Dead Water,
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Secrets of the Ancients,
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients (Undead Campaign)

Post by rumcajs666 »

Hi beetlenaut,

I'm trying to translate Your campaign to polish language right now (basing on master branch).

I believe there is a problem with campaign description:
1) in data/campaigns/Secret_of_the_Ancients/_main.cfg:21 there is a string (i stripped irrelevant empty lines):

"Rediscover the secrets known by the lich lords of the Green Isle. They knew how to live forever, so why can't you?
(Hard level, 18 scenarios.)"

2) in po/wesnoth-sota/wesnoth-sota.pot there is (also stripped some chars):
"Rediscover the secrets known by the lich lords of the Green Isle. They knew how to live forever, so why can't you?"
"(Intermediate level, 21 scenarios.)"

There is a difference with difficulty level and number of scenarios.

Is fixing this issue up to You or should i go with it to github?

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octalot
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients (Undead Campaign)

Post by octalot »

Hi rumcajs,

Thanks for taking on the translation. I'd suggest translating on the 1.14 branch, because almost all of the changes in master have been backported to 1.14, and it seems all the strings in 1.14 are going to be in 1.15 too. Some of the strings in master's current .pot file won't be in 1.15.

What's happening on master is that the .pot files haven't been updated for about a year. Now that 1.15.0 is getting ready to be released, there's #4173 for updating it.

"(Hard level, 18 scenarios.)" is the correct version, and that's the only change on 1.14 after 1.14.7 was released.

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josteph
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients (Undead Campaign)

Post by josteph »

The pot files in master were just updated a few minutes ago: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/comm ... 116a312725

BTIsaac
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients (Undead Campaign)

Post by BTIsaac »

Okay, so I've been replaying this campaign after it got officially mainlined, and I noticed a writing issue that struck me as odd. Scenerio 11, Battleground, has two instances of Ardonna's gender being brought up. Aside from the fact that a scenario about reptile people fighting skeletons for being too spooky is the oddest place for this to be brought up, both mentions feel really out of place.

The first instance is in the briefing where Ardonna feels the need to mention that Ras-Tabahn didn't judge her by her gender. This implies that the academy on Alduin had trouble accepting women, which makes no sense. Of all the wesnothian units, mages are the few that are equal opportunity when it comes to gender. Not to mention that, considering where this takes place in the timeline, it couldnt've been much more than a generation ago that half the people who would become the wesnothians were taking orders from a female leader.
The other issue with this is that it's established from the begining that most hardships Ardonna faced were a result of her albinism, and congenital anosmia (which itself implies a series of other problems she might have had). That's enough reason to establish someone as an outcast. Throwing in sexism just for the heck of it is not only unnecesary, it's also illogical, especially if you consider that any potential bullying from the other girls would've been a much bigger issue to her than a few professors taking her slightly less seriously that her male peers.

The other instance is at the end, after Vendraxis joins, and Ardonna feels the need to ask "but I'm a girl, is that okay with you?", to which Vendraxis responds, explaining that Saurian society is matriarchal, which has already been alluded to in a much more organic fashion at the beginning, so it's just pointless exposition at this point. Furthermore, why is it necessary to ask that question in the first place AFTER Vendraxis already explained that he shares Ardonna's goals and is interested in working together with her? This just feels like a weird excuse to add exposition about saurian society... in an UNDEAD campaign.

So in both cases I feel the need to ask, do any of these lines add anything to the story, or are they just there to interrupt the flow of narrative for the sake of having social commentary for it's own sake?

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