Preferred Fate of the Dunefolk (formerly Khalifate)?

[Xalzar]

Ladder rules say that the only accepted era is the Default, with 6 factions. Ladder games have been played since 2008, and the community provided the best players this game has ever seen. Ask the players over 2000, or even 1800 elo, if they want to play ladder games with Dunefolk/Khalifate. Then you'll see the haters, im not one. (1 or 2 exception means nothing.) The game should provide the era they want to use for competitive games, and sorry, but non-ladder players shouldn't decide instead of them. Old Default could be named even Ladder era.
Im not one of the all-time best players, but at moment i say i don't want to play Dunefolk/Default in my competitive games. I don't think it'll change, but who knows...? I just don't want anyone else decide instead of the Ladder community, who obviously have the best 1 on 1 skills which means they have the best insight in case of balance. The old Default should be kept in the game as a second option, as long as the best ladder players say it should. Not the crowd, only the top tier, only the ones over 2000 or even 2100 to exclude myself. If the active, playing population who has more elo than me prefers the Dunefolk/Khalifate, then i'll get in line even if i disagree. But i don't think i should download add-ons just because people on a lower level loved Dunefolk/Khalifate that much.
Wesnoth Ladder can't be ignored, they can't be forced to use add-ons. The game has to give them the era they want, because they provide the games at the highest levels.

Is Wesnoth only for top-tier players? Honest question, whom does this game aspire to cater to? If it's meant to be only for people who play at maximum level in the ladder, then you exclude everyone else from the possibility to express their opinion. I personally think that to be a bit elitist, but I can see that the ladder player are probably the most active and knowledgeable.
But I'll say: low-ELO players' feedback is important too. IMO it's "equally" important, in order to give the best game experience to everyone. Maybe could be even considered a bit less important if you want, but surely it is absolutely not to be dismissed.

Said that, I think having two eras for the common players is nonsensical, and I mean in the long term. Obviously while the Dunefolk is still consolidating I myself don't want them "forced" on people. But in the end there should be only one default era (if the inclusion goes well, ofc).

Let's hypotesize that I strongly despise the Drake faction (I think I've even read somewhere that at the start it was indeed adversed by some people) but I still want to play the ladder. Should I pretend to have an era without it? No, because the ladder works with the default era. So I have to adapt. Now let's imagine the situation in a few years (probably) with the Dunefolk instead. It's the same.

I think one of the major reasons for the "pros" to dislike a new faction is that they have little practice with it (at high level). After all there are very few occasions (and often time) to practice it competitively outside ladder. So the players' ELO is at risk with random factions, the fear is understandable.

So, Default with 7 factions? OK. Convince majority of the active top tiers!
The problem is, i think that's impossible. It's like crossing the speed of light. Nowdays in these circles, the faction is refused almost entirely, i would say by 90%. I would look like a Khalifate-fanboy next to them. In my experience it's not that they think it's hopelessly imbalanced, they just don't want to bother with it. It's just not wanted at all. I don't want it in my competitive games either. (A tournament, even a regular one, would be different of course.)

If the era for the Ladder players is assured, i'll be a supporter of the official Default with 7 factions. I will take part in balancing and testing, and one day, i might change my opinion, it happened before.
And as i said, prove me wrong and i'll get in line.

You say that as a fact. I'm a bit skeptical about the percentage but I believe you.
Then - I think I could for everyone here - I'd appreciate to hear from these players in first person. You've explained your grievances - even if you haven't exactly pinpointed what is the "gameplay problem" of the Dunefolk and that's a bit frustrating to me - I'd like to hear more precious feedback from expert players. Why they don't want it? What they would change?
If they care about the ladder so much I think they should be invested in the betterment of a new future faction so to make it adequate for their matches.

Consider that what I'm talking about is the finalized Dunefolk faction. If it's not satifactory at the end of its re-development process, I'll definitively agree with you.

@ElderofZion: I can see your point. I think we should all talk about this faction in a more specific way in a balance thread. Here is not the place and the skeptical ones will not be converted by "words without meat" - and they shouldn't. And they're right to be like that at this moment, so let's get to it.

[Pentarctagon]

Then - I think I could for everyone here - I'd appreciate to hear from these players in first person. You've explained your grievances - even if you haven't exactly pinpointed what is the "gameplay problem" of the Dunefolk and that's a bit frustrating to me - I'd like to hear more precious feedback from expert players. Why they don't want it? What they would change?

...

@ElderofZion: I can see your point. I think we should all talk about this faction in a more specific way in a balance thread. Here is not the place and the skeptical ones will not be converted by "words without meat" - and they shouldn't. And they're right to be like that at this moment, so let's get to it.

Specific balancing discussion should go here.

[Celtic_Minstrel]

Celmin and I were considering making them part of the Default era for 1.13.12, actually.

I thought we had decided against it because the description would be a lie (either that or break the string freeze), but if you're okay with that, then sure I guess?

[vultraz]

I wrote that before we decided against it.

[Elder2]

@Xalzar Sure, I already talked a bit about balance there. Anyway like I have already said if someone wants some more ACTUAL knowledge about khalifate balance there is khalifate resource and balance thread so I think there is not much more to talk about. Most of the default+dunefolk era balance thread are some speculations, a lot of liminal discussion and some little basic bits found in the thread i mentioned.

[Krogen]

Less experienced players and pros are equally important. This is a game, we play it for entertainment, levels will make no difference in that. I don't think it's even a question of opinion, it's just a fact.
My whole argument in this forum was about a compromise. You would be absolutely right otherwise. But all i said was this: keep the other Default era for the ladder/high leveled players. And remove it when THEY agree to that. This has nothing to do with the others, they can play the official Default. I still can't understand why the two Defaults version would hurt some people. It would be just like Age of Heroes. Why is it a problem if it's there? There are 3 options here, not 2. Keeping both IS an option.
I can be convinced that Dunefolk/Khalifate can be balanced properly. I can't see how, but i'll give it a chance. Still, even if im convinced, i wouldn't want it to be the only Default, unless there is a decisive agreement among the players (again, i don't see that happening). And if it's not happening, the only way is a compromise.
It's different to adapt to something that's been this way for 12 years and it's also different to adapt to something that's been changed after 12 years, especially if it's done against the will of many.
So what i think is, Dunefolk/Khalifate has to be balanced AND has to be accepted by the majority of the players to be part of the only Default.

I will write about it's balance in some days in the linked forum. In short, i think it's a stomp right now for the Loyalists, and they already dominate most matchups slightly or more (except vs UD). It's almost as bad as Loys vs Knalgans. There are already enough nasty, imbalanced matchups, and right now, the Dunefolk/Khalifate provides more of that, which will not benefit the era overall.

[Soliton]

The chance that we'll include the Dunefolk into default with not at least renaming current default and keeping it under a different name is very small.

A more likely scenario IMO is that we'll add more eras. I can imagine having an era with every mainline faction, an era with the current default faction and a new era with some new factions including the Dunefolk to be balanced among themselves, probably with a separate map pool. At first perhaps including some factions from default since we cannot realistically add that many factions at once. But with the requirement of not changing the default factions to balance the new era (for obvious reasons) but with the goal to get a new independent era that may some day be as balanced as default.

I think that is a more realistic direction to go in since I agree with the scepticism that the Dunefolk can be successfully integrated (balancing-wise) into current default. Nevertheless if people want to try balancing Dunefolk for default that'd be very welcome.

[Celtic_Minstrel]

I wrote that before we decided against it.

Ahh, okay. Makes sense.

[MathBrush]

Is it possible to just run some very basic tests of AI vs AI over a couple of hundred iterations?

I know that AI plays extremely differently from a live human, but it would reveal any strict superiority in stats; if one race is better gold for gold, it would reveal it.

If this is an incredibly misguided idea, feel free to ignore it.

[Celtic_Minstrel]

It is indeed possible. The --multiplayer command-line option is intended for this exact sort of thing, and there are additional options to select a scenario and specify each side's faction. I think by default this option even runs the game without the GUI.

[skeptical_troll]

Aside from all balancing issues, why not have, in the long run, a 'custom era', where factions are added from the whole pool (default, extended, after the fall.. whatever will be there) by just ticking the relative boxes? This would happen when a game is created. Obviously it requires a change in the UI, but it would give enough flexibility to make everyone happy: the conservative ones and those who want to experiment.

[Krogen]

It could work like the different packs in the PYRA add-on for example. This direction, with a lot of eras, would be welcome by me.

[max_torch]

Aside from all balancing issues, why not have, in the long run, a 'custom era', where factions are added from the whole pool (default, extended, after the fall.. whatever will be there) by just ticking the relative boxes? This would happen when a game is created. Obviously it requires a change in the UI, but it would give enough flexibility to make everyone happy: the conservative ones and those who want to experiment.

Wow I don't see how we can go wrong with this idea. It allows us to be more flexible in adding risky, experimental things yet satisfy everyone's tastes. This would be great even for UMC it's like you can have your own "ageless era". You can have any factions you downloaded included as an option to tick in this "custom era".

[Samonella]

Aside from all balancing issues, why not have, in the long run, a 'custom era', where factions are added from the whole pool (default, extended, after the fall.. whatever will be there) by just ticking the relative boxes? This would happen when a game is created. Obviously it requires a change in the UI, but it would give enough flexibility to make everyone happy: the conservative ones and those who want to experiment.

It would make the multiplayer server a bit more complicated for users. Any time someone starts a game with the 'custom era' you have to look through all the factions before deciding whether you want to join. I suspect people would just skip it and look for one with a familiar era.

[Pentarctagon]

There is the Ageless II era, which I think does something similar already.