Legend of the Invincibles

[Me2]

"The unraveller" armor takes 3 movement points away but in return you are supposed to be resistant to slow. However, if you gets hit during enemy´s turn for some monster/demon having the ability to slow, you get already slowed the whole (enemy) turn... and it is only when your (player) turn starts when it is removed...
As I like to suit my team with strong punch abilities, it hurts my strat a lot. Is it intended to be this way?

[Dugi]

About the passage of detriment: Having a lot of warnings is good, but I still don't really see the reason why you would want to have an empty map like that in the campaign at all.

Some monsters are supposed to be there if you approach their spawn point, but the area is so huge that the chance that you find any of them is small. Unless you actually scout the area, which I think you didn't.

Multiple instances of despair can overlap and will not pick the most beneficial one (probably goes by which unit was adjacent first?)

The worst one is picked. It is implemented as a negative leadership that applies to enemies and is independent of level. Only one leadership can apply to a unit and it is the one with the greatest value. In the case of multiple despairs, it is the weakest despair that has the greatest value. This applies also to conviction/frail tide. I could hypothetically change this in wesnoth and ask developers to accept it, but I don't know how would it work out.

I still don't understand why some buffs change steadfast. I noticed this consistently with the aura of universal annihilation given by the sword: It would raise the limit of the steadfast ability to 80% resistance

This is again a feature of the game, I did not code this. All abilities that increase resistances increase them up to a maximum value. If you combine two such abilities, the one with higher maximum resistance allowed prevails. The abilities might be coded to have no effect on resistances that are already above a certain value.

Is conviction supposed to affect only nonphysical resistances now? If so, would this still be different for an older unit, i.e. a unit which was leveled in an older version? In any case, faerie incarnations' conviction still reduces physical resistances as well

These things persist for very long if they come from AMLA.

Should resistances always be capped at 80%? Some abilities can definitely push you beyond that (I can't really tell the details though, and it does not happen for all units. I can look at it more closely or provide a save file if desired).

As I wrote, every ability has its own maximum resistance cap. Resistances from gear have a separate cap.

Maybe Scythemaster's whirlwind attack should be modified? He can get extremely powerful, I killed the enemy from the previous point in one attack.

I guess that he was too strong. I have reduced that attack's base damage a bit (-2) and reduced the number of AMLAs he can have, in order to worsen the effect on after-whirlwind exhaustion (now only two +2 damage AMLAs instead of five). Maybe I could reduce the base damage further.

I think one of the bigger issues is that you can make your troops nearly invincibles with the many leadership-type abilities that are available.

This is intended, yet I may have wrongly guessed its potential. If you are playing on normal or easy, you might be too good for it (higher difficulties have not only more enemies, but also stronger enemies and weaker items). If you're playing on hard, then it's seriously overpowered.
Btw, there's no way to prevent many different abilities to apply simultaneously.

The second map in particular is very hard and requires dedicated crafting and a bit of luck

I have reduced the number of demons there.

I will try to provide a save file that reproduces this behaviour.

Please do, the error looks very strange.

It is also my feeling: even with the recent modifications (e.g. spell suck) I don't think that the redeem spells are a good investment for Efraim nor Lethalia.

Still? The exp is now obtained, the damage is high enough to suffer little from exhaustion... should I increase its damage further or what?

I noticed a small bug in redeeming.cfg: starting from redeem 15, WEAPON_SPECIAL_GUIDED is added, but is was already added by redeem 8.

No, it does not add it again, it replaces the existing with it. But it's quite weird, all earlier bonuses add weapon specials instead of replacing by new ones. I have changed it, I hope it doesn't break anything.

However, if you gets hit during enemy´s turn for some monster/demon having the ability to slow, you get already slowed the whole (enemy) turn...

This isn't the expected behaviour. The slow should be removed at the end of every attack where the unit participates. Can you please upload a save file where this weird behaviour can be observed?

Note:
The changes I mentioned were not uploaded to the server, it is a large download and forcing it for every small change wastes resources. I have updated only the github version, get it if you want.

[Xargon]

Thanks for all the explanations!

About the passage of detriment: Having a lot of warnings is good, but I still don't really see the reason why you would want to have an empty map like that in the campaign at all.

Some monsters are supposed to be there if you approach their spawn point, but the area is so huge that the chance that you find any of them is small. Unless you actually scout the area, which I think you didn't.

You're right, I didn't. As I mentioned, I scouted for 15 turns or something, then quit. Until that part, it also felt completely empty, not like the "there is something in the water" atmosphere I was expecting. Well, I will just leave it at a "I don't like that map" now

The worst one is picked. It is implemented as a negative leadership that applies to enemies and is independent of level. Only one leadership can apply to a unit and it is the one with the greatest value. In the case of multiple despairs, it is the weakest despair that has the greatest value. This applies also to conviction/frail tide. I could hypothetically change this in wesnoth and ask developers to accept it, but I don't know how would it work out.

I see, it makes sense now from a technical standpoint.

I still don't understand why some buffs change steadfast. I noticed this consistently with the aura of universal annihilation given by the sword: It would raise the limit of the steadfast ability to 80% resistance

This is again a feature of the game, I did not code this. All abilities that increase resistances increase them up to a maximum value. If you combine two such abilities, the one with higher maximum resistance allowed prevails. The abilities might be coded to have no effect on resistances that are already above a certain value.

I suspected that it might be due to hardcoded effects...

I think one of the bigger issues is that you can make your troops nearly invincibles with the many leadership-type abilities that are available.

This is intended, yet I may have wrongly guessed its potential. If you are playing on normal or easy, you might be too good for it (higher difficulties have not only more enemies, but also stronger enemies and weaker items). If you're playing on hard, then it's seriously overpowered.
Btw, there's no way to prevent many different abilities to apply simultaneously.

I was playing on normal. Looking back, playing on hard might have been fine for the most part. But the first few levels of chapter 10 could have been horrible, and it might have made chapter 9 even more grindy - not sure if I would ever have completed it. So I don't regret picking normal

It is also my feeling: even with the recent modifications (e.g. spell suck) I don't think that the redeem spells are a good investment for Efraim nor Lethalia.

Still? The exp is now obtained, the damage is high enough to suffer little from exhaustion... should I increase its damage further or what?

The area effect spells I found most useful were blizzard and ice blast, for their mass slow. I simply rarely found myself in the situation that I wanted Efram or Lethalia to just damage a group of enemies instead of killing a single one (most area effect things would usually kill at most the main target). With the leadership buffs, the other hardhitting units can kill a unit in one turn anyway, so the main point is then to be in a safe position during the enemies' turn - and this is achieved via buffs and slow... Getting to the high-level spells requires a huge investment in AMLAs, and then you get something which is useful in some rare situations (keeping in mind what I said just before), whereas putting all those AMLAs into standard combat abilities gives you a big boost in standard combat that you are going to use every turn.

I noticed a small bug in redeeming.cfg: starting from redeem 15, WEAPON_SPECIAL_GUIDED is added, but is was already added by redeem 8.

No, it does not add it again, it replaces the existing with it. But it's quite weird, all earlier bonuses add weapon specials instead of replacing by new ones. I have changed it, I hope it doesn't break anything.

Speaking of Redeem 15: When I got my leaders to that level, they just got redeem 14 twice. Maybe again some problem with updating the version...

[Whiskeyjack]

It is also my feeling: even with the recent modifications (e.g. spell suck) I don't think that the redeem spells are a good investment for Efraim nor Lethalia.

Still? The exp is now obtained, the damage is high enough to suffer little from exhaustion... should I increase its damage further or what?

I think the problem is that at the point you reach the first redeem spells you already invested quite some AMLA points into one or two basic attacks (melee and/or ranged). Therefore the basic redeem spell will be considerably weaker than your current basic attack state and getting enough AMLAs to counterbalance this is harder than for the first few. This results in further buffing the basic spells just being more effective and leaves the redeem AMLAs only for grindy theory crafters that like to try things out. Anyone without a lot of knowledge of the system that just wants "to try out stuff" will necessarily be left with considerably weaker heroes, because valuable AMLA points were spread over a multitude of different abilities.

[Delicius169]

Possibility is, that from beginning you can just use Redeem atack with Leth/Ef, and try not to lvl them up much. I tried it really long time ago to get Particle storm as soon as possible. I think Leth neede about 300-400xp for next lvl when I got it. There are even scenarios (those 3 where you are passing tundra) with spamming skeletons/ghost- so you can get a lot of redeems here. But it was in time, when particle storm had arcane attack type...

[Cam9855]

I used to play LoTI a few years ago, and just started playing again recently. Dugi, I just made a forums account only to say thank you for years of dedication and all the time you put in to create such an amazing game.

[Dugi]

I was playing on normal. Looking back, playing on hard might have been fine for the most part. But the first few levels of chapter 10 could have been horrible, and it might have made chapter 9 even more grindy - not sure if I would ever have completed it. So I don't regret picking normal

That is why I have just made scenario 2 easier. Easy is the new hard there.

#Useless spells from redeem
Uhm, so maybe I could give it more damage and less AMLAs?

Speaking of Redeem 15: When I got my leaders to that level, they just got redeem 14 twice. Maybe again some problem with updating the version...

Do you happen to have a save file of that event? Truth is that the max redeem level used to be 15, but since it was obtainable, I increased it to 20. Maybe I've made a mistake somewhere there.

I used to play LoTI a few years ago, and just started playing again recently. Dugi, I just made a forums account only to say thank you for years of dedication and all the time you put in to create such an amazing game.

What a pleasure to read. I like that you like it.

[lionside]

Howdy. Enjoying the game. A couple of questions and bafflements. I've spent a few hours googling and searching, figured it was okay to post my questions now.

1. I tried searching the thread for "multiplayer" to see if there was any talk of multiplayer functionality from the LotI system, but apparently, "multiplayer" is filtered from searches because it is "too common." Any word on that?

2. The wiki pages on the items in LotI have essentially no useful details on the items. What gives? Is there any resource i can use to figure out whether I've gotten a top tier item?

3. How about some details on item drop rate? what is the default drop rate? Is there a a difference in drop rate for gem types? is there any way to increase drop rate? The items are a fun feature, but they're just so RARE...

I'll probably have more questions later. Toodles.

[matsjoyce]

1. I tried searching the thread for "multiplayer" to see if there was any talk of multiplayer functionality from the LotI system, but apparently, "multiplayer" is filtered from searches because it is "too common." Any word on that?

I've played multiplayer LotI before, so yeah, it works. LotI comes with two multiplayer games, "Gladiator" and "Hordes of the Other World" which can be found with the default mp games. Someone made an ero for LotI IIRC, but I think it died or something, as I haven't bumped into it in a while.

2. The wiki pages on the items in LotI have essentially no useful details on the items. What gives? Is there any resource i can use to figure out whether I've gotten a top tier item?

The wiki pages basically replicate what the in-game system provides, which is most things. Is there any particular stuff that missing? I'm not sure providing a ranking of items would be that useful, as the best items are what works for you with the other items you've got and is most effective against the enemies you're fighting.

3. How about some details on item drop rate? what is the default drop rate? Is there a a difference in drop rate for gem types? is there any way to increase drop rate? The items are a fun feature, but they're just so RARE...

Drop rate changes per scenario for items. The gem drop rate is:

Obsidian: 33%
Topaz: 22%
Opal: 19%
Pearl: 12%/8%
Diamond: 5%/4%
Ruby: 3%/3%
Emerald: 1.1%/2.5%
Amethyst: 0.7%/1.6%
Sapphire: 0.4%/0.9%
Black Pearl: 0.3%/0.6%

Gems higher than opal have different chances to drop in Part II, the first value is the chance in Part I and the second one is the chance in Part II.

[Dugi]

@lionside
1. Multiplayer works with the LotI multiplayer scenarios, but not elsewhere. There is a MP modification that should give LotI functionality to MP, called LotI Mod, but I am not certain how functional is that.
2. Only very few items drop deterministically. It's almost always probability-based.
3. Some items cannot drop in the first part of the campaign. There is no script to put that information together, you can ask me about some item and I will tell you the probability.

Thanks matsjoyce for adding other useful information.

[matsjoyce]

There is no script to put that information together

Mmm, sounds like a challenge. Looks like I've found another procrastination method...

[Ashes]

It is also my feeling: even with the recent modifications (e.g. spell suck) I don't think that the redeem spells are a good investment for Efraim nor Lethalia.

Still? The exp is now obtained, the damage is high enough to suffer little from exhaustion... should I increase its damage further or what?

I agree that they are more useful than when AoE spells did not provide xp for all kills.

But I still don't use ranged attacks when attacking: Efraim has better chances of killing his target with Doombringer and fury attack (and some blade penetration), and Lethalia with her staff and a mask of insanity (or her Dugi's Wrath axe and whirlwind). And to kill many enemies, using AoE attacks is not as efficient as being good at retaliation when defending. Therefore, being able to slow the enemies, plus sustain, is still the most efficient way to kill the hordes of demons or other things.

Every redeem spell has some advantages, but none is really worth spending a lot of AMLA, when the "native" attacks have already been improved.
For example, my AMLA strategy for Efraim has been: faster; faster; levitate; sword; sword precision; sword; sword; fury2; sword; knives; weapons; cleave; weapons; weapons; knives; knives precision; blade penetration (5 times); absorbs (twice); fury3; fury5. After these 28 AMLA, and equipped with Doombringer, Soul Drinker, Draingloves (and Rherraerent's Ring), there is no need for spells.
For Lethalia I have been less straightforward with my AMLA: the first three improved faerie fire, but in the long term it is not a good idea, gossamer is much better (slowing, firststrike, focused, and drain).

If the only AMLAs that improve penetration or resistance are with redeem spells, then I think that they will become more interesting.

[nuorc]

Anyone without a lot of knowledge of the system that just wants "to try out stuff" will necessarily be left with considerably weaker heroes, because valuable AMLA points were spread over a multitude of different abilities.

Yeah. Personally it feels like too much choices for me, most not worth taking. I try to pick one path (making an educated guess by looking up what's what and maybe the tips from the other players here) and then stick with it, because trying out stuff doesn't feel rewarding.

[lionside]

What are the details for level up skill progressions? (I thought I could find a like a wiki page somewhere that would give the details for all classes, so I could make an informed decision about which levels to take, but nope, found nothing.) Are there any level up options that require levels in other skills, like skill trees? What does "aware of legacy" mean?

[matsjoyce]

@lionside Referring to https://wiki.wesnoth.org/LotI_Unit_Advancements?