Legend of the Invincibles

[James_The_Invisible]

Thanks for completing me . (@Dugi: did you really want it to work this way? I would expect penetration to work only on 1 enemy, the one who you are attacking/who is attacking you. And it actually seems to work exactly like conviction ability.)

[Hex]

I guess you missed me saying
Neither does whirlwind attack show in upgrade screen on a shadow-walker with only 3 attack choices (would be 4 with whirlwind attack, if it listed)
What is the line number limit/attack number limit for displaying in upgrade screen btw? Because in screen space terms, there is plenty of room in advancement screen where it shows units stats, more space then unit info window when casually checking stats.

Does physical penetration scale with enemy units existing physical resistance? AKA is it more or less effective with a unit with more or less existing physical resistance?
Normally does 10 though, right?

Reducing anti-social by half on warlock nerfs damage too much (both melee and magic attack), should it really reduce damage at all? You already have to spend two advancements to get ride of antisocial, siginificant damage nerf seems extra harsh. Does the second advancement that removes antisocial altogether further reduce your units damage? If so, is there anything eventually to compensate for this double nerf?

I also agree with James, I would expect penetration to only work with combat of the unit that has the skill. On the other hand, there would be no point in the elf mage getting piercing penetration if it didn't benefit other attacking units as well.

[James_The_Invisible]

Neither does whirlwind attack show in upgrade screen on a shadow-walker with only 3 attack choices

The cause is same as for berserk.

What is the line number limit/attack number limit for displaying in upgrade screen btw?

There is no hard-coded number limit (as far as I know). It depends on the number of weapon special what the attacks have (each is shown on its own line).

Reducing anti-social by half on warlock nerfs damage too much (both melee and magic attack), should it really reduce damage at all? You already have to spend two advancements to get ride of antisocial, siginificant damage nerf seems extra harsh. Does the second advancement that removes antisocial altogether further reduce your units damage?

Are you saying that the advancements which are supposed to negate effects of anti-social are doing the exact opposite? Sounds like a bug. Dugi will need (probably) a save file before your warlock takes this amla and more info about circumstances.

And if I do not answer anything, I probably do not know the answer . I have not created this campaign so I do not understand all its code (Dugi has used many advanced wml techniques) and why something is designed how it is designed. All I did was reporting a few bugs/issues via PM to its author.

[Hex]

Reducing anti-social by half on warlock nerfs damage too much (both melee and magic attack), should it really reduce damage at all? You already have to spend two advancements to get ride of antisocial, siginificant damage nerf seems extra harsh. Does the second advancement that removes antisocial altogether further reduce your units damage?

Are you saying that the advancements which are supposed to negate effects of anti-social are doing the exact opposite? Sounds like a bug. Dugi will need (probably) a save file before your warlock takes this amla and more info about circumstances.

No, it's not a bug, since the text tells me its suppose to work like this, you seem to be misunderstanding something.

Antisocial reduces damage of allies around it by 20%, a reverse leadership that doesn't care about level. There is a advancement that changes Antisocial to Lesser antisocial which reduces damage of units around it by 10% instead of 20%. But besides having to use a advancement just to cut the drawback of antisocial in half, it also comes with the price of reducing both the melee attack and magic attack of warlock significantly, by 2 damage per strike for both. From a 7-5 melee 16-3 magical unit to a 5-5 14-3 unit, the name of the advancement is "not so antisocial (less damage though)" I was wondering would the second advancement that eliminates antisocial, nerf the units damages even more?

Warlock doesn't seem to be that awesome of a unit to begin with that it can't spend two advancements to get ride of antisocial without being nerfed in damage for all attacks twice too. It already comes with fencers extra vulnerability to physical plus extra low hp. Its attacks are nice, but not awesome for a level 4. I only made one because I lacked firemages and it seemed nice with equality item.

[James_The_Invisible]

Seems that I really misunderstood you. This part confused me:

I was wondering would the second advancement that eliminates antisocial, nerf the units damages even more?

The second advancement completely removes the anti-social but yes, it decreases his own damage. Well, if you can keep him at least 2 hexes away from all your units, he can be as much anti-social as he wishes . But he is not a damage dealer. His main strength is in his higher defenses on all terrains.

[Hex]

Seems that I really misunderstood you. This part confused me:

I was wondering would the second advancement that eliminates antisocial, nerf the units damages even more?

The second advancement completely removes the anti-social.

I figured as much, but my question was, does it also debuff both attacks a second time then? And if so, by 2 per strike on both, like the first time?

[James_The_Invisible]

I edited my post when you were writing it . I wrote it. And yes, for 2 damage again.

[Hex]

His strength of high defence is worthless with everything else. First of all, it's directly countered by fencers increased vulnerability to physical. And fencers don't have alot of HP, but warlock has even less. And even if you can keep it safe, there is no point if its damage is low. And unless I plaster it with items, if I keep it away from other units, it becomes hard to protect.

Its attacks aren't even really better then the other level 4 options of fencer. I really think it should be able to advance away antisocial without losing damage.

[James_The_Invisible]

I think that Warlock's case is similar to this:

Lich King is not meant to be a perfect Lich/Death Knight hybrid. There is a rule called RIPLIB that says that units should have the possibility to advance without getting weaker at anything. I am trying to follow my own rule that any advanced unit should be more then just bigger, with more hp and more damage and his backstory should be more interesting than just more experienced dude. So I kept the old Death Knight and gave him some magic. He's still a bit better in his old craft, but he has a brand new addition rather than just a boost. I allowed Lich to advance to Lich King because they are slightly similar and Lich already had a proper advancement, Ancient Lich (this means that the Lich can still develop his old black art, losing some of his magic damage for good melee is just an option). So it's basically an advancement of Death Knight that a Lich can gain if he desires so, it's not a merge of the two lines.

(from the top of 223rd page of this thread; he is something between mage and fencer)
I have not played with Warlock myself so I cannot tell you much about his usefulness.

[Hex]

Of course its a cross between a mage and a fencer, I don't need to be told something that obvious. But Lich-king isn't antisocial (though I wouldn't figure a Lich or Death knight would be very socialable or pleasant to be around) where in order to get ride of the antisocial, you got to use up two advancements and lose a substantial amount of damage too. Nor does LichKing have any other drawbacks not found in either Liches or Deathknights, unlike Warlock. Lich-king is actually proof of Warlock being excessively punished by contrasting between them.

I recommend for it,

1. allow it to earn off antisocial with two advancements, but no nerf to damage.

2. Give it skirmish. It fits. I mean if it can slide through enemies without magic, it certainly should be able to with magic, and would not be too powerful. Its already a fragile unit, with antisocial you got to keep it from other units. With skirmish, at least we don't have to worry about it getting trapped out on its own. Besides, it should get some benefit from being part fencer.

and/or

3. No minus physical weakness. It was always silly that units with leather armor suffered more damage from a hit then units wearing robes. This is not based on logic but game balance to counter higher defense. But this campaign has lots of magical attacks and even marksmanship, making the defense near worthless sometimes and the physical liability not balanced with strength of defense leaving weakness only. Plus that it has a mages HP, antisocial, and no skirimish leaves a pretty pathetic unit. One could say mages don't have physical weakness because their magic protects them a little, well warlock has magic.

Finally, a advancement that made the flaming sword magical would be interesting.

[tbarnstone]

Hey, so congrats on probably the most ambitious of the campaigns out there. I've played it a few times and I like the new characters, new advancements, and especially that the enemies often have special attacks (32 pt regen, etc.) Even so, I find that the game is a bit unbalanced, and I'll make a few suggestions for what they're worth.

1) One issue I have is that to level your characters up to max level and add a few advancements takes forever. You have to resort to allowing your enemies to take over all the villages so they continue to spawn and then killing them until the last term so you can get the max experience. This works best on levels without a term limit, but those have been eliminated except for in the dragon level, where as I recall you lose all your characters at the end in any case. After keeping the enemies alive for 500 or 1000 turns it gets boring, of course, but this is the only way to harvest enough gems to do much, gather artifacts, and level the characters. What if, as with the "loyal" characters you had a hyper game play option where experience levels are halved and where gems dropped much more often but where the enemies are more numerous, more powerful, and with more dangerous special characteristics? Really, it's only the twisted elves that pose any challenge in the campaign,mainly because they have drain and so on.

2) I love that you've made the bosses more challenging. I think that you can make them even more so. What about taking some of the characters that people have developed in the game and turning them into enemies? You already do something like this with Argan turning, but it could add a level of challenge that would be cool.

3) What if the NPCs who drop items get to USE those items before they die? Again, would add significant challenges.

Anyhoo, take it for what it's worth. Hope it helps, and keep up the good work.

[Masterchief40k]

3) What if the NPCs who drop items get to USE those items before they die? Again, would add significant challenges.

I`m asking myself it that would mean that your units after dying would let the items fall,too?
Anyway is the item dropping bound to the savegame?
If not then it would be impossible?
I like the idea and have another question about it:
I remember some Enemies like a Troll "shining purple" at that moment I thought he might use or carry an item but I dont know if he/they lost one and he/they seemed to be as usual?

[Dugi]

I am back. I'll reply to unanswered questions in order they were asked.

@Hex

You don't consider a walk-through to be many many times more revealing of the game then a list of what different weapon specials do?

It's intentionally worded so that it reveals little information about the story. And before you get to it, you get a spoiler warning.

Please let people play how they want to play, and some of us want to be able to plan ahead of time what to craft with limited crafting resources.

Crafting generally wasn't meant to be much an option in early game. You don't have the materials for all the higher recipes (for two reasons, for once gems drop less frequently and also you're much less likely to get the higher gems if a gem drops), and the lower recipes don't give many unusual abilities/weapon specials.

And take note of Crow_T's post.

And you insultingly told me to do math, but I don't want to whip out a calculator every time and inputting in a bunch of numbers, and don't know how wesnoth figures all its calculations, does it round up or down on .5 etc.

This is just a shameless excuse. It's not hard to make a few experiments with non-crafted items and figure this all out (especially when you're interested in the exact result, you should know the formulae). Rounding is always down as it's usual with computers.
If I wanted to nitpick, I'd enjoy writing that you want to plan so many things ahead... as long as you don't have to make any calculations yourself. When I play a game where numbers are needed, like Path of Exile, I take a calculator (or open a calculator program) and compute it all, no shame.

Look, they can look over/through the barricade and see you, they got windows in the room too.

I am not speaking about any realism here, have you noticed that impassable terrains in wesnoth can't be seen through?

Please put two items in first area for Death knight to use, since lack of such items to give him makes the map near impossible.

From past posts, I know that you performed much worse in that scenario than others, so I can easily assert that it was only you who had issues in that scenario.

I had a thought about Hit and run, you could remove that ability and give that item Quick strike (movement isn't lost when attacking) and Skirmish instead. It's nearly the same thing, but this way you can't get double movement out of it. Skirmish has its own benefits but it fits with guerrilla fighting.

Guerilla is one of the few items that weren't created by me. Find its author and talk to him. You can find the relevant post in this topic. If he's gone for long, we can discuss it, but skirisher can be quite an advantage elsewhere. I'd prefer an option to decrease the movement gain from hit and run.

Many mechanisms can be exploited if you have the will to spend the time, like making items only to break them in a attempt to get a rarer gem could be called exploiting the game mechanisms. Dugi already said the recycle option exists to deal with excess inventory causing game problems, he did not say it exists to convert common gems into rare gems.

This isn't something it was designed for, but its exploitability potential is low. You get about as many gems as you get items and you need several gems to create an item to recycle. Means like 20-25% more higher gems.
Maybe I'll implement an option to convert some gems (4 obsidians or 3 topazes or 2 opals etc) into a random gem. I was thinking about a possibility to convert three lower gems into one higher, but the randomness appeals to me more.

Defense from equipment does scale according to existing defense, like resistance does. I remember you saying it wasn't suppose to work like this.

No idea when, but it was supposed to work like that. The bonuses are additive only if they increase specifically one resistance or defence, like extra defence on forests or extra resistance to fire. Otherwise they are scaled so that they increase the stat only relatively to the current value, so that if a unit would take without it 80% of the damage or attacks and the item is supposed to decrease it by 10%, it decreases it by 10% of the 80%, resulting in 72%.

Like Blashlyg the frost deathlord of Twlight scenario, has both freezing aura and northfrost aura.

I made a function to create the icy units, adding freezing aura, changing colour, resistances etc. and used it to create all the units. Blashyg got northfrost aura and the function added freezing aura to him as well. Fixed this.
Side note: I'll name an item after anyone who figures out the riddle why I named him Blashyg.

How does Radiating insanity and Warlords rule, work? And is "Anger" a limited berserk where you attack 3 times instead of 30? How does Retribution work?

Radiating insanity adds berserk to melee attacks of all nearby units. The usual Ulfserker's berserk.
Warlord's rule adds charge to melee attacks of adjacent units.
Anger isn't like berserk (or lesser berserk that significantly shortens the number of repeats), it doubles the attack count of both combatants, so if you use it with a unit that has 5 attacks against a unit that has 2 attacks, they will keep attacking 4 times each and then your unit will attack 6 times without retaliation. In some way, it's like charge.
Retribution returns a portion of attacker's damage back to attacker as fire damage.

With the shadow empire scenario, you get generals as recallable units if you defeat zorox without killing them? How about the necromancers, they join you? Or is all that just story dialogue, none of them actually join you?

You don't get any of them as recallable units, you just get their unit types as recruitable units.

Does that mean all physical melee attacks get berserk added to them? What about say a arcane melee? Physical range?

Melee attacks.

Argon still leaves your party without warning and takes all items on him with him.

Okay, added a warning. In the beginning of scenario Long Way Home, he appears, but tells you that he's going to leave soon and tell you to take his items. He then leaves at turn 3.

In the special advancements there is "Health (+10 to hp advancements)" I have no idea what this means. This means +10 hp per unit level, including max levels? Future levels?
Though when you actually pick it, it just says "more healthy" and doesn't even give 10hp, it gives 7. But does it keep giving for each level after this?

It will add unlock several advancements that will add 10 hp instead of the usual 3.

Improved a bit? If parry blow only works in attack, then in order for target to miss, first attacker must hit twice.

No, you hit if your opponent misses, so your defence and the opponent's attack count increase the effectiveness of this. The number of attacks is based on the sword attack (or some other attack if you aren't writing about a sword user), and it might have ended with a single attack if it wasn't an attack with many hits (rounding is almost always down).

Could you make it so players can choose which attack their units use in defense?

There are add-ons that allow this, I think that nuorc has one.

Earlier versions of this campaign suffered from bad english, that has been improved since then. Maybe Dugi improved his english or had previously farmed out the work or what not, I am not sure. But I think a number of descriptions still suffer from this bad english, and/or have not been updated to reflect changes made since then.

I have improved my english.
The descriptions are written rather intuitively, not precisely, because exact mathematical definitions would render the descriptions overly long.

Lightning

That's a damage type, like fire or blade. Resistances to it are rare.

Thunderer

Piercing gun attack.

Meteor

A fiery attack with AoE.

And does X penetration means you reduce opponents resistance against that type by 10, whether attacking or defending? If physical, does it scale according to foes existing resistance?

This one doesn't scale, the scaling is done to prevent getting resistances too high easily, here it isn't needed. It reduces the opponent's resistances against that type by 10 in all cases, attacking, defending or whatever.

Because in screen space terms, there is plenty of room in advancement screen where it shows units stats, more space then unit info window when casually checking stats.

I know what you mean but in this case there's no way to do that besides reimplementing the advancement window in lua and adding that function.

Reducing anti-social by half on warlock nerfs damage too much (both melee and magic attack), should it really reduce damage at all?

You shouldn't take it right when you get the first AMLA, it's definitely not worth it. But after several advancements, it might not be so bad, because the antisocial's damage anti-bonus is multiplicative while the damage penalty isn't, it just subtracts 2 damage from all of his attacks.
The second advancement removes the (dis-)ability totally, but at another -2 damage penalty.

I recommend for it,

Seems you find warlock unbalanced. Very well, I made him stronger.

@Turuk
Big thanks for the intervention.

@James_the_Invisible
Thanks for helping. If you get to Brno sometime during autumn's workdays, I'll invite you for a beer or two.

@Heindal
Thanks for helping to you too.

@xuanquang
Thanks for helping me in all the stuff. I am thinking about naming an item after you as a reward, what should it be?

I lose my way in chapter 9. I have reached to Pandermonium but still not found the way to defeat Uria.

Spoiler:

When Lilith surrenders and Uria refuses to save her, Lilith should appear in pandemonium after that you attack Uria a few times and should tell you how to deal with her.
Abaddon can be killed only after getting through Pandemonium.

In fact, all enemies nearby get that resistance reduced ( Your other units can attack and deal more damage because of this)

It's intended to be like this. Other ways to do this didn't work properly, and I wanted some sort of specialised conviction ability anyway.

@Masterchief40k
Thanks for speaking highly of my work.

Well a few things could be changed like Argon leaving with your stuff and coming back without them.(as mentioned by Hex before)

Changed that part to prevent this problem.

When Efraim becomes a Lich I felt like he`s becoming weak and stays weaker than before, or maybe the enemies get better balancing?!

The truth is that he was somewhat overpowered before becoming a lich. As a lich, he should eventually grow stronger than before, but he isn't quite strong right after becoming a lich. It can be explained that he was used to use his body as a living man and not as a possessing spirit.

in the one where in the mission screen stands something about scip enemy turn i already had to do this miles ago the game became slow maybe there could be stronger enemies instead of much?

In later parts, they will be stronger rather than numerous. There is a fix for the issues with slow AI decisions, but it works only in late development versions of wesnoth and it's not time yet to implement it globally. I'll add it when wesnoth 1.12 comes out. If a scenario desperately needs this, I can add it with a version check macro.

I`m asking myself it that would mean that your units after dying would let the items fall,too?

I've replied to this when Hex asked about it not long ago, search a bit backwards. In short, it's because it would let you sacrifice geared units, take their gear, make another well-geared level 1 unit and sacrifice again. A properly equipped level 1 unit can compare to level 4 units or be even better, and having such an easy supply of them would be too good.
As I said before, enemies will quickly take the items, sell them on flea market and buy cocaine for it.

Anyway is the item dropping bound to the savegame?

Everything is bound to the savegame. Maybe I understood your question improperly, can you elaborate more if you need the answer?

I remember some Enemies like a Troll "shining purple" at that moment I thought he might use or carry an item but I dont know if he/they lost one and he/they seemed to be as usual?

Read my reply to similar question of tbarnstone bellow.

@tbarnstone
Thanks for words of approval.

After keeping the enemies alive for 500 or 1000 turns it gets boring, of course, but this is the only way to harvest enough gems to do much, gather artifacts, and level the characters.

Is this even possible? I am very sure that I set a maximum turn limit to all scenarios for this exact reason. Where did I forget to put a turn limit?

I love that you've made the bosses more challenging. I think that you can make them even more so.

I might, can you be more specific?

What about taking some of the characters that people have developed in the game and turning them into enemies? You already do something like this with Argan turning, but it could add a level of challenge that would be cool.

You have also Efraim versus Lethalia, no? I don't want to focus on this too much, because you can equip that particular character with a load of nasty items and then all these items are unexpectedly working against you.

What if the NPCs who drop items get to USE those items before they die? Again, would add significant challenges.

I have replied to this suggestion when Hex told it a few weeks ago.
The problem is that many of these weapon effects aren't much focused on being on enemies. Most of the items wouldn't be very challenging, an enemy with 30% extra damage wouldn't be much an extra challenge, rather just an a bit stronger enemy, AI would hardly have any use for hit and run, damage penetration would have rarely any effect etc. To provide extra challenge, I added these coloured units, they have modifications that are made to be challenging on enemies. The coloured enemies don't have an altered chance to drop enemies because the chance to drop items is adjusted to scenarios, depending on the number and difficulty of enemy units there and so on, and the number of coloured units depends on difficulty selected.

[xuanquang]

@Dugi
Glad that you came back!

I'll name an item after anyone who figures out the riddle why I named him Blashyg.

No answer. However, it looks like some Japanese people crazily like your campaign.

Seems you find warlock unbalanced. Very well, I made him stronger.

After I equipped for my warlock a book of fireball and followed its advancements, she has 8-strike exploded fireball attack and can take care of herself.

I am thinking about naming an item after you as a reward, what should it be?

I prefer if you make part III of the campaign, and give mermen a chance to show up. Well, I'm thinking about a melee item that gives a weapon special called "kamikaze". It merges attack of both Attacker and Defender. After damage calculating, the attacker appears behind the target. If another enemy is behind the first one, damage is applied for it with a reduced rate (like pierce attack), and so on. So the attacker can deal damage on a string of enemies, and appear at the end of string. This makes him be separated from his allies, and can get dangerous.

Where did I forget to put a turn limit?

Annihilation

[Dugi]

No answer. However, it looks like some Japanese people crazily like your campaign.

Nope, it has nothing to do with anything Japanese.

After I equipped for my warlock a book of fireball and followed its advancements, she has 8-strike exploded fireball attack and can take care of herself.

I made him only a bit stronger, about 1 AMLA worth of improvements. Hex had a point here, he wasn't a very good unit without heavy strategy.

I prefer if you make part III of the campaign, and give mermen a chance to show up.

The reason why mermen aren't in the campaign is that they are usable only on watery terrains that are awkward for most other units. There would either mean only several areas where you'd have any use for them or several areas where you can't use most of your units.
And part III is not going to be. LotI might continue but not as part III (I intentionally don't want to reveal more here).

It merges attack of both Attacker and Defender. After damage calculating, the attacker appears behind the target. If another enemy is behind the first one, damage is applied for it with a reduced rate (like pierce attack), and so on. So the attacker can deal damage on a string of enemies, and appear at the end of string. This makes him be separated from his allies, and can get dangerous.

I don't understand it completely. Did you mean that the attacker's attacks are merged into one that hits the opponent, continues hitting all enemies behind him for decreasing and decreasing damage and ends up behind the row of enemies?
I've seen an attack like this in Diablo II, it allowed cutting through enemies until there were no more enemies, but the user definitely wasn't exposed after the attack, because he could just use the same attack to come back. In LotI, it would require him to survive a turn there and in the next turn, he would just come back in the same way as he got there. Not much a kamikaze. Another problem is if he run into an obstacle, he can't stop behind the enemies, but he can't stop on them neither.
Any ideas how to balance this?

Annihilation

Ah, that one. Added a turn limit. I added a nice losing dialogue, where Efraim gives in and joins the enemy.