Archaic Era (BfW 1.14)

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doofus-01
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Re: Archaic Era (for BfW 1.12.x)

Post by doofus-01 »

Battlecruiser_Venca wrote:After playing BMR and Trinity, I can't say, that the Primevals are really the bad guys in the campaign as you describe. They just hate Khthon, their ancient enemy, fighting with them and endless war. Player fights them in two scenarios IIRC (and avoids fight with them in another one [the one, where I've reported the bug with Ares]).
Well, one of their strategies to defeat the Khthon is to exterminate all enthrall-able races, and genocide is bad. They are also the very last opponent in the BMR campaign.
That does remind me though that the AI attack bug is supposed to be fixed now, I should recheck that part with Ares. And the Ukian Attack Dogs, I think it affected them too.
Battlecruiser_Venca wrote:I'd raise cost of vapor to at least 5g. At 2g without time limit, the vapors are too effective for phantom to maintain map control (and AI overrecruits them in the campaign, I think, that AI should do something else there, than go 90% to vapors).
I'll hold off on touching the Phantoms (and Primevals) for MP balance, for now at least. As far as the campaign AI, if you mean the Mummy in the first Dark Planet scenario, that was by design: the northern Mummy recruits real units, the lower one recruits fakes/vapors.
Battlecruiser_Venca wrote:I'd look into South-seas healer as the healing branch really overpowers the other one, especially when combined a strong tank to protect them from receiving damage (in Trinity, you can use Nemesis or later Bresda for that) while the other branch lacks both healing and damage potential. Note that nerfing this may shift balance across Trinity, where a hard hitter is required.
I agree that the healer is the more useful branch, but didn't really intend for the other branch to be equal, just useful for a certain role, where blade+swarm is a poor attack and a magical attacker is better. Also, the "fog" (or whatever similar thing I called it) weapon special isn't really working correctly at the moment, that's making the branch lower power than I'd intended.

I think you may be right about the Primeval Striker, I'll revisit that.

Thanks.
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Re: Archaic Era (for BfW 1.12.x)

Post by Battlecruiser_Venca »

doofus-01 wrote:
Battlecruiser_Venca wrote:After playing BMR and Trinity, I can't say, that the Primevals are really the bad guys in the campaign as you describe. They just hate Khthon, their ancient enemy, fighting with them and endless war. Player fights them in two scenarios IIRC (and avoids fight with them in another one [the one, where I've reported the bug with Ares]).
Well, one of their strategies to defeat the Khthon is to exterminate all enthrall-able races, and genocide is bad. They are also the very last opponent in the BMR campaign.
That does remind me though that the AI attack bug is supposed to be fixed now, I should recheck that part with Ares. And the Ukian Attack Dogs, I think it affected them too.
I've got that Khthon disease is something like Borg assimilation in Star Trek except that you can't tell infested apart. And Primevals are paranoid about that. But in Trinity Nemesis collaborates with other nations to get rid of Echidna. I think, that elimination of all enthrallable races is actually Ares' strategy.

EDIT: And another thing: Primeval Cutters can get strong trait even if they don't have any melee attack (mainline Dark Adepts don't get the strong trait bercause of their lack of melee attack). Note that, this exception should be only applied to L1, which si meleeless (as it is done mainline, the L2, Dark Sorcerer can get strong trait if he is recruited as L2 unit).

EDIT2: BUG: Somewhere in the last updates the Firewheel attack icon has disappeared
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Re: Archaic Era (for BfW 1.12.x)

Post by doofus-01 »

Battlecruiser_Venca wrote:EDIT: And another thing: Primeval Cutters can get strong trait even if they don't have any melee attack (mainline Dark Adepts don't get the strong trait bercause of their lack of melee attack). Note that, this exception should be only applied to L1, which si meleeless (as it is done mainline, the L2, Dark Sorcerer can get strong trait if he is recruited as L2 unit).
Sure, seems reasonable.
Battlecruiser_Venca wrote:EDIT2: BUG: Somewhere in the last updates the Firewheel attack icon has disappeared
What happened is that those attack icons are in Archaic_Resources, rather than Archaic_Era, where they should be. It worked earlier because you probably had Archaic_Resources installed earlier, but don't anymore. I'll move them.

Thanks.
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Re: Archaic Era (for BfW 1.12.x)

Post by Battlecruiser_Venca »

I've looked into the toad, but I don't think that would Khthon ever help (at least vs Ghosts where you supposed them to work), it's a second aquatic unit, in this case with extremely low HP for Khthon. I think that the Khthon really need an unit with arcane damage since all uninfectable units are arcane-weak (Primeval, Phantom, Despair and the Undead, the Ghouls and Primeval humans are the exception for this rule) and all infectable are resistant to the arcane damage type (remember that the Drakes, Elves and Woses aren't included in Archaic). So I thnik that fire resistance and arcane damage are things that should be used to balance Khthon.
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Re: Archaic Era (for BfW 1.12.x)

Post by doofus-01 »

Battlecruiser_Venca wrote:I've looked into the toad, but I don't think that would Khthon ever help (at least vs Ghosts where you supposed them to work), it's a second aquatic unit, in this case with extremely low HP for Khthon. I think that the Khthon really need an unit with arcane damage since all uninfectable units are arcane-weak (Primeval, Phantom, Despair and the Undead, the Ghouls and Primeval humans are the exception for this rule) and all infectable are resistant to the arcane damage type (remember that the Drakes, Elves and Woses aren't included in Archaic). So I thnik that fire resistance and arcane damage are things that should be used to balance Khthon.
A very cheap unit (vs expensive ghosts) that is resistant to cold (the ghost's retaliation) and has slows attack special (keeps ghosts from moving around, makes their drain less effective). Sure, in a ghost vs toad one-on-one, ghost would win. But if the intent was to neutralize ghost effectiveness against Khthon, I think the idea works. Maybe the stats need adjustment, I jut took my best guess at what would be needed to fill the role without being too effective against everything else.

An arcane attack is difficult to accommodate thematically, for a level 1. But I'll listen to ideas, aside from Khthon Mages or Swamp Elves.
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Re: Archaic Era (for BfW 1.12.x)

Post by Battlecruiser_Venca »

The ghost is mainly problem because Khthon do have a lot of problems to take him down, so it's perfect UD's vill holder. Toads have now a lot of problem to reach them inlands. Two hits from a ghost at night-> dead toad. The only way to ged rid of a ghost on a village inlands is to be lucky with charging with a ram.

So I'd suggest to give them 1mp over flat and castle (probably 2mp forests and hills) and change their attack type to arcane. But it could make them spammable vs Despair (it's really a problem to stone zergling-like unit), so remove slow?
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Re: Archaic Era (for BfW 1.12.x)

Post by doofus-01 »

Battlecruiser_Venca wrote:So I'd suggest to give them 1mp over flat and castle (probably 2mp forests and hills) and change their attack type to arcane.
The better movement isn't a problem, but I don't like the arcane attack. I get why it would be good, but it really doesn't fit thematically.
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Re: Archaic Era (for BfW 1.12.x)

Post by Battlecruiser_Venca »

Another balance thingy - South-Seas fastest unit has 6 base mp. Mainline maps do expect that all faction have an unit with 8 base mp, so South-Seas are in a big disadvantage at map control. (Primevals have 7 base mp max, but I don't think that it is really a problem since they have strong units, so a map control is a strategy against them).

And I'd give Diver and Marine (not Swimmer) 1mp over flat, since there isn't much water in later parts of Trinity
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Re: Archaic Era (for BfW 1.12.x)

Post by doofus-01 »

1.4.15 has been uploaded to BfW 1.12 server.

I've made most of the adjustments discussed above. A few details on some units:

1. South-Seas Seahag/SeaScourge: Fog (now called "Mind Fog") should work more like it was intended, and kind of the opposite to how it used to work. It now makes opposing magical attacks have a 20% chance to hit. One bug I'm aware of is that the AI knows nothing about it, so it will usually use the other ranged attack. The weapon special isn't too useful against, say, a skeleton archer. But it should be good against mages.

2. South-Seas Albatross: I drew it quickly, and it probably needs some adjustments, but it is a flying scout unit to fill the role mentioned above:
Battlecruiser_Venca wrote:Another balance thingy - South-Seas fastest unit has 6 base mp. Mainline maps do expect that all faction have an unit with 8 base mp, so South-Seas are in a big disadvantage at map control. (Primevals have 7 base mp max, but I don't think that it is really a problem since they have strong units, so a map control is a strategy against them).
3. Khthon Toad: Made spit to be "acid spit" with fire damage type, rather than sticky goo, impact spit. That kind of almost makes sense, and fire is the secondary weakness for Ghosts.

---------------
I think there was something else I wanted to mention, but don't remember right now.
---------------
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Re: Archaic Era (for BfW 1.12.x)

Post by Battlecruiser_Venca »

doofus-01 wrote: 1. South-Seas Seahag/SeaScourge: Fog (now called "Mind Fog") should work more like it was intended, and kind of the opposite to how it used to work. It now makes opposing magical attacks have a 20% chance to hit. One bug I'm aware of is that the AI knows nothing about it, so it will usually use the other ranged attack. The weapon special isn't too useful against, say, a skeleton archer. But it should be good against mages.
hm, give 'em still a buff, I'd start with HP and both attacks, HP could be +10, attacks a bit
doofus-01 wrote: 2. South-Seas Albatross: I drew it quickly, and it probably needs some adjustments, but it is a flying scout unit to fill the role mentioned above:
Battlecruiser_Venca wrote:Another balance thingy - South-Seas fastest unit has 6 base mp. Mainline maps do expect that all faction have an unit with 8 base mp, so South-Seas are in a big disadvantage at map control. (Primevals have 7 base mp max, but I don't think that it is really a problem since they have strong units, so a map control is a strategy against them).
give them 5-3 or 6-3 melee, or make them L0 unit with reduced HP and cost
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Re: Archaic Era (for BfW 1.12.x)

Post by doofus-01 »

Battlecruiser_Venca wrote:hm, give 'em still a buff, I'd start with HP and both attacks, HP could be +10, attacks a bit
I'm open to that, but keep in mind that the two branches don't need to be equally attractive. I need to see how Fog actually shakes out; can't the Seahag branch be a useful specialist?
Battlecruiser_Venca wrote:give them 5-3 or 6-3 melee, or make them L0 unit with reduced HP and cost
I compared them to the Blood Bats, but maybe the dynamics with L0 Bat starting point are different. An albatross is a lot bigger than a bat, I think they should be L1 to start. Maybe giving them better defenses would make up the difference (they soar high up in the air ... it thematically makes some sense to me, sort of).

Anyways, thanks for your help with the balancing, Battlecruiser_Venca.
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Re: Archaic Era (for BfW 1.12.x)

Post by Battlecruiser_Venca »

As specialist unit, give them a movement buff, let's start with 6mp. The main problem is that we need to make them attractive compared to the 50 dmg potential at neutral TOD + healing at L2 which we can't touch because of Trinity balance. So the possible buffs are:

1) A movement buff, possibly skirmirsher
2) A HP buff
3) A damage buff preferably at melee
4) Make them heal too

As looking into mage-counter unit, mages vulnerable to melee, the only exception are liches, but the fog is bound to a cold attack which are liches resistant to. And as you mentioned, AI will choose the other attack when defending a mage unit, so it appears, that the fog weapon special looks a bit useless. Hm, I've got another idea: Leadership

As with albatross, take a look at Khalifate's falcon.
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Re: Archaic Era (for BfW 1.12.x)

Post by doofus-01 »

Battlecruiser_Venca wrote:As specialist unit, give them a movement buff, let's start with 6mp. The main problem is that we need to make them attractive compared to the 50 dmg potential at neutral TOD + healing at L2 which we can't touch because of Trinity balance. So the possible buffs are:

1) A movement buff, possibly skirmirsher
2) A HP buff
3) A damage buff preferably at melee
4) Make them heal too

As looking into mage-counter unit, mages vulnerable to melee, the only exception are liches, but the fog is bound to a cold attack which are liches resistant to. And as you mentioned, AI will choose the other attack when defending a mage unit, so it appears, that the fog weapon special looks a bit useless. Hm, I've got another idea: Leadership
I've looked into getting th AI to recognize the special, or getting the special to work on defense, but if it is possible, it is beyond my ability. That doesn't mean we need to abandon the idea. I like suggestion #3 above, but think I really should just focus on getting the weapon special to work in a useful way.
Battlecruiser_Venca wrote:As with albatross, take a look at Khalifate's falcon.
I don't think those are considered at all balanced, are they?
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Re: Archaic Era (for BfW 1.12.x)

Post by Battlecruiser_Venca »

doofus-01 wrote:
Battlecruiser_Venca wrote:As with albatross, take a look at Khalifate's falcon.
I don't think those are considered at all balanced, are they?
IIRC they're somewhat balanced (not as balanced as default mainline factions). However, they should be better balanced than Archaic is (as Archaic needs some balancing from playing on mainline maps). Now we have some factions with 8 mp leaders (as opposed to mainline, where every leader unit has 5 or 6 mp, a quick trait is given to 4 mp ones to reach 5 mp) and Khthon do start with lvl 3 leaders. (Is that for some balance reasons?)
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Re: Archaic Era (for BfW 1.12.x)

Post by doofus-01 »

Battlecruiser_Venca wrote:Khthon do start with lvl 3 leaders. (Is that for some balance reasons?)
No, it was an oversight; Nightmare used to be level 2. It will be fixed in next update. Thanks.
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