Pre-selected traits

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cerotu0
Posts: 2
Joined: October 25th, 2013, 2:10 am

Pre-selected traits

Post by cerotu0 »

I have always been of the opinion that the traits should be allowed to be selected manually for units (or left random if the user wishes). I understand that some of the developers have felt this to not be in the "spirit" or "nature" of the game before and have essentially locked the idea out of further instructions. But now in the 1.11 series the units have predestined random traits that cannot be altered by reloading from an earlier save or by any other means. This is simply a deal breaker for me. I use different traits at different points in each campaign even for the same unit types. Sometimes I'll replay a campaign with different selected traits to see how it plays differently. Call it computer game eugenics if you like, but the new version is now "play my way or don't play at all." Honestly, the second option sounds better than what is currently available in the 1.11 series. Is there any way of changing this for the user that I am unaware of, or do I just stop at the 1.10 series of the game?
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SkyOne
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Re: Pre-selected traits

Post by SkyOne »

Welcome to the forums, cerotu0.:)
cerotu0 wrote:in the 1.11 series the units have predestined random traits that cannot be altered by reloading from an earlier save
BfW 1.11.2 is the highest version that supports my current OS. On 1.11.2, it occurs. But I am not sure it still happens or not on any higher versions of BfW.
If you are talking about playing on 1.11.6, it should be a bug. You or anyone else can report it here: https://gna.org/bugs/?group=wesnoth

The trait modification is one of the attractions to play BfW, and I play like what you say until BfW 1.10 (keep reloading until appropriate traits show).
cerotu0 wrote:do I just stop at the 1.10 series of the game?
You mean 1.11, right?
Fate of a Princess/feedback thread: "What is in own heart that is the most important, not who you are."
Drake Campaign: Brave Wings/feedback thread, Naga Campaign: Return of the Monster, Saurian Campaign: Across the Ocean
Northern Forces - now on 1.12 server
oaq
Posts: 45
Joined: July 21st, 2011, 4:45 pm

Re: Pre-selected traits

Post by oaq »

Random events one cannot evade add much to the game's strategic challenge. Therefore, I do not want the power to manipulate traits.

The original poster evidently does want the power to manipulate traits. This of course is his preference. To each, his own, and good luck to him.

However, for my part, I tend strongly to prefer to play a game in its standard form, without optional rules or features. In Wesnoth this means among others that I prefer to play without the option to circumvent the random selection of traits.

Standards are good. To support too many options can be bad. The code base should not be constrained to support nonstandard play of every possible kind.

The new trait system as the original poster describes it (traits being governed by the campaign's single random seed?) actually sounds like a pretty good idea to me.
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iceiceice
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Re: Pre-selected traits

Post by iceiceice »

cerotu0 wrote:Is there any way of changing this for the user that I am unaware of, or do I just stop at the 1.10 series of the game?
I believe you could quite easily make a umc modification that would let you pick traits -- for instance, wml is powerful enough that you could have a right click menu item that lists all traits to make a trait priority list, and then you could make a prerecruit event that gives recruited units the highest priority traits they are elligible for. (You could probably use the pick your advancement mod as a template to some extent.)

That being said, I agree with oaq, in my opinion the change is a feature not a bug, and further I think your style of play in previous versions was actually exploiting a bug. So the burden should be on you to make a umc mod to support it.
MRDNRA
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Joined: September 11th, 2009, 5:06 pm

Re: Pre-selected traits

Post by MRDNRA »

I for one have never been the biggest fan of the "quick" trait, due to it causing a reduction in HP, however there are certain units the "quick" trait is useful for, for example, elvish captains, combine quick for more movement to be able to move around to lead more units per turn, with resilient for maximum hp, and it becomes optimal. This is why I like the Wesnoth trait system as a whole, and these days just try to work with what I can to the best of my ability (even quick, intelligent elvish archers - IMO, elvish archers don't really need to be quick because they already have more movement than elvish fighters and also already have low hp. Give me strong, resilient, dextrous, or intelligent (it doesn't matter how) over quick for an elvish archer any day - that said, again there are exceptions to that rule, quick resilient elvish archers (at least when levelled along the ranger path) can become useful for grabbing and holding more advanced terrain quickly!).
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zookeeper
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Re: Pre-selected traits

Post by zookeeper »

If you load a save, random events such as the picking of random traits always happen the same way if you trigger them in the same order. So, as far as I know, when you reload you could simply recruit units in a different order, perform an attack before recruiting or something similar in order to get a different set of traits.
cerotu0
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Joined: October 25th, 2013, 2:10 am

Re: Pre-selected traits

Post by cerotu0 »

oaq wrote:Random events one cannot evade add much to the game's strategic challenge. Therefore, I do not want the power to manipulate traits.
Fine, that's your call. I am not talking about trait selection in multiplaying, just killing time on my own in campaigns.
iceiceice wrote:...in my opinion the change is a feature not a bug, and further I think your style of play in previous versions was actually exploiting a bug. So the burden should be on you...
This is the superiority judgement I have seen people run up against in past threads when people suggest this. It is very off-putting and does not help advance a community at all. I already have enough issues with the developers, such as belonging to a "Free Game Alliance" http://www.freegamealliance.com/ and then charging for "mobile" versions of the game.
SkyOne wrote:You mean 1.11, right?
No, I mean no longer downloading new versions and just play older versions.

I don't mean to sound whinny, but these are just concerns I have had for a while and felt I should voice them.
JaMiT
Developer
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Re: Pre-selected traits

Post by JaMiT »

cerotu0 wrote:I already have enough issues with the developers, such as belonging to a "Free Game Alliance" http://www.freegamealliance.com/ and then charging for "mobile" versions of the game.
I fail to see the contradiction here. Wesonth is a "free" game, meaning it does not attempt to limit what players can do with the software. For the most part, people are free to modify and/or distribute the software as they desire, provided they don't try to usurp ownership. (There are some gross generalizations in there, but that's the gist of libre software.) That includes the freedom to charge for distributing the software. As you have seen.

It also includes your freedom to start distributing mobile versions for no charge, if you desire.

(OK, if you confuse "free" with its homophone that means "no charge", then there would be a contradiction. But the "free" in "free game" is the same "free" as in "free speech".)


By the way, the developers are not the ones distributing the mobile version of the game.
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Crow_T
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Re: Pre-selected traits

Post by Crow_T »

IMO this could be interesting for hero/important units, but not for general recruiting. Although this could reek of pick-up backyard sports where you plead to your particular god not to be picked last, and when you are a captain you have the 3-4 kids you avoid (just a dose of reality here).

But in terms of a strategy game highly affected by randomness I agree with oaq, the traits should be random as well.
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iridium137
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Re: Pre-selected traits

Post by iridium137 »

One thing that you can do is use debug mode to kill the unit with undesired traits, then add back the gold, then re-recruit.
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iceiceice
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Re: Pre-selected traits

Post by iceiceice »

cerotu0 wrote:
iceiceice wrote:...in my opinion the change is a feature not a bug, and further I think your style of play in previous versions was actually exploiting a bug. So the burden should be on you...
This is the superiority judgement I have seen people run up against in past threads when people suggest this. It is very off-putting and does not help advance a community at all. I already have enough issues with the developers, such as ...
This remark seems to imply that you think I am one of the developers -- I am not, nor have I pretended to be. You would be able to tell because my handle would be colored as such.

I am simply a player who recognizes that your strange threats and criticisms towards the Devs suggest that you have things a bit backwards. You are the only one who has told anybody "my way or the highway", "this is a deal breaker" etc. You should realize that when you ask others to spend time and energy catering to a niche request for free, you ought to be much more polite about it. Speaking as a third party, your stance has come off as pretty rude.

There have been a large number of constructive alternatives proposed here, which you might show some interest in.
fabi
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Re: Pre-selected traits

Post by fabi »

Maybe a small trait selector modification? It should not be too hard to write such an addon.
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SkyOne
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Joined: January 3rd, 2009, 7:23 pm

Re: Pre-selected traits

Post by SkyOne »

fabi wrote:Maybe a small trait selector modification? It should not be too hard to write such an addon.
Actually, that is exactly what I am doing on my Naga campaign on 1.11 (only the first scenario), and a few turns on my Drake campaign also.
I think they work pretty good, especially on Naga's one.:) Nagas don't need many variations of the traits on it IMO.

P.S. they are also good to put out a fire (I don't mean in the campaign).
----------------

EDIT:
SkyOne wrote:
cerotu0 wrote: in the 1.11 series the units have predestined random traits that cannot be altered by reloading from an earlier save
BfW 1.11.2 is the highest version that supports my current OS. On 1.11.2, it occurs. But I am not sure it still happens or not on any higher versions of BfW.
If you are talking about playing on 1.11.6, it should be a bug. You or anyone else can report it here: https://gna.org/bugs/?group=wesnoth
Okay, BfW 1.11.7 supports my OS (again), and I realized that it still happens. So I reported the part: https://gna.org/bugs/?21321
Hopefully, a precious developer will fix it.
Fate of a Princess/feedback thread: "What is in own heart that is the most important, not who you are."
Drake Campaign: Brave Wings/feedback thread, Naga Campaign: Return of the Monster, Saurian Campaign: Across the Ocean
Northern Forces - now on 1.12 server
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