Footpad Balance (Dwarf vs Undead)

[Crendgrim]

This thread seems to have gone into a debate whether to discuss a proposal of one of the top players. I think indeed that you should discuss these balance issues over at the ladder board, and come here with a final proposal. It does not help at all to get into these discussions about discussions, and a "balancing suggestion" is easier to keep clean than a "discussion", especially if the discussion no other top players take part in.

[AxalaraFlame]

okay, it seems that you still don't quite understand it.

[Crendgrim]

And it adds nothing to this discussion.

[Cackfiend]

i would just suggest deleting this entire thread personally


also, Rigor? top player?

[Creativity]

If you're spamming skeletons versus Knalgans you need to reconsider your strategy. I've never had any trouble with this, from either side.

IMHO, the Footpad isn't useless vs other races. Footpads exist for one reason in my strategy: high defense. I use them about the same as I would use a troll whelp as Northerners.

What the...
First, you never spam skeletons vs anything(unless you're trying a BURS recruit or something). But you do need a few skeletons to provide damage, ZoC adepts, kill ulfserkers.....
Secondly, the troll whelp is waaaay different than the footpad.
Whelp: High HP, regen, some positive resists, slow and semi bad defense.
Footpad: Low HP, negative resists, fast, and great defense.

[TheScribe]

Secondly, the troll whelp is waaaay different than the footpad.

Yeah, but I use them for the same purpose. It actually works out fine for me, in my semi-limited experience.

[Gallifax]

Cackfiend:

Given this some more thought. As I said I use footpads vs drakes, I think it could be problematic to have then a cheap 70 % defender who does pierce dmg to melee based drakes(or loyals). So if , the pierce dmg would have to be pretty low, so maybe after all it might be better to change the ranged dmg of footpad by 1.

[AxalaraFlame]

I believe it is not that case. Changing footpad is not very promising to balance against UD and loyalists; revrse their range and melee may works, but with a knife does not make much differences to loyalists, since they basically rely on range harassment, while we use spear to remove them instead of HI.

Knalgan vs UD balance issue is basically found on Ulf+footpad vs Adept+skeleton+ghost. Footpad has been changed many times in the test version, not promising IMO. I believe the point lies on these bold texted units. They are very variable and unstable. Changing their ability makes more sense than an already stable unit.

While for vs loyals, problem is not on footpad too. It is on HeavyInfantry . It is such an IMBA weak unit, neither good at counter UD(fear adept), nor good at dealing with footie, which makes little sense. IMO its price can be cut down to 18, but the consequence is still unknown.

And, the focus of balance is not a problem of units themselves. Map has great role in it. While sadly, Wesnoth has never had a map terrian standard, which makes the balancing of races quite difficult, especially on different maps.


In a word, it is not the problem of footpad.
--END OF LINE--

[Colouredbox]

In a word, it is not the problem of footpad.
--END OF LINE--

Except it kinda is when over half of your army is footpads, and the undead is in a disadvantage.

Have top players tested the matchup with 4-2 at any point by the way?

Also what happened to 19 gold ghosts?

[Into-Jesus]

First of all, I have played many MP games, just not on the ladder, and with friends of mine. So, if you desire to just turn your nose up at my suggestion, go ahead. Be my guest. But on the other hand, this seems to basic math, not strategy.

Second, Footpads have a 4-2 and 5-2 attack. Skeletons have a 7-3 attack. Skeletons have -20% vs. impact. Footpads have -20% vs. blade. So, in melee, the Skeleton will do better. In ranged, the Footpad will do better. And the Skeleton Archer can do much better damage to the Footpad then the Footpad to the Skeleton Archer. And I know that the Skeleton Archer is more expensive, but not by a lot.

Third, I think that this is unbalanced in the same way that Spearmen are really good against Horsemen, Cavalrymen, and other horse-based units. And the Ulfserker against Dark Adept. And Dark Adept ranged vs. Drakes. And Mages vs. Heavy Infantrymen. Have you noticed that Spearmen are terrible vs. Skeletons, but good against Cavalrymen, who are in turn good against Footpads, who are in turn good against Skeletons, who are in turn good against Spearmen, who are in turn good against...

[TheScribe]

Also, if you change the footpad to balance versus UD(which it won't), it'll unbalance it versus other factions.

And I agree with Into-Jesus completely.

[AxalaraFlame]

First of all, I have played many MP games, just not on the ladder, and with friends of mine. So, if you desire to just turn your nose up at my suggestion, go ahead. Be my guest. But on the other hand, this seems to basic math, not strategy.

Second, Footpads have a 4-2 and 5-2 attack. Skeletons have a 7-3 attack. Skeletons have -20% vs. impact. Footpads have -20% vs. blade. So, in melee, the Skeleton will do better. In ranged, the Footpad will do better. And the Skeleton Archer can do much better damage to the Footpad then the Footpad to the Skeleton Archer. And I know that the Skeleton Archer is more expensive, but not by a lot.

Third, I think that this is unbalanced in the same way that Spearmen are really good against Horsemen, Cavalrymen, and other horse-based units. And the Ulfserker against Dark Adept. And Dark Adept ranged vs. Drakes. And Mages vs. Heavy Infantrymen. Have you noticed that Spearmen are terrible vs. Skeletons, but good against Cavalrymen, who are in turn good against Footpads, who are in turn good against Skeletons, who are in turn good against Spearmen, who are in turn good against...

I hope u are talking it seriously, because as we all know, footpad has -30 blade resistances, not -20. Let alone the game's balance is built on they have high dodge rate. Second, a real ladderer does not rely on simple math, or in other case why dont u simply rush with ske archer? U will realize how inefficient it is and why we dont get if frequently in vs knalgans. Let alone, ske archer is 14$ while ske is 15$. Third, balance is based on factions and factions, not a simple unit against another kind of unit in particular.

[TheScribe]

I hope u are talking it seriously, because as we all know, footpad has -30 blade resistances, not -20.

That could've been a typo, followed by a copy paste error...

Third, balance is based on factions and factions, not a simple unit against another kind of unit in particular.

My guess is he knows that. The reason he's using that example is because of the first post of the topic.

I think the perfect change for footpad would be to change its melee damage from Blunt to Slashing. or even piercing

This would make the Skeleton not take so much retaliation damage when its melees a footpad and it wouldn't really affect other matchups much at all.

And also, he's not saying you can rely only on math, but rather that math shows that the footpad isn't so overpowered versus the Skeleton.

[Crendgrim]

Maybe we should wait for some input of good players? No offense meant to anyone, but this thread (as every similar one in the past weeks) starts to become a discussion between two or three people, all of whom are not high ranked on the ladders if I didn't miss something.

[AxalaraFlame]

Maybe we should wait for some input of good players? No offense meant to anyone, but this thread (as every similar one in the past weeks) starts to become a discussion between two or three people, all of whom are not high ranked on the ladders if I didn't miss something.

Crend, that rank means NOTHING. U know it. Besides, gaming balance is made for all players, including the majority of "newbies", instead of exlusively made for "good players" only. Or this game which is played by the thousands would be actually decided by numerable people