[mainline] Weaken the OP LT

[Pentarctagon]

Balance decisions should never be made based on Isar's Cross, since the map itself is unbalanced.

[AlexanderK]

oh, really? I think it is the most played map on the server and if it's unbalanced I want to know why do you say so. In my opinion Isar Cross is well-balanced map, except maybe time of the day of red player, but it is common thing among other maps too.

[soul_steven]

To kind of ping pong of pentarctagon's comment without having to go in a long rant on isars cross I want to mention that you can't even talk balance just for one map even if that map is balanced. An example is UD are really really powerful on salestone delta against drakes since the size however on other maps like Sullas I feel drakes have the advantage since they can outmaneuver the opponent with there mp. In short I started this thread with the idea to start talking 6 mp LT to see where peoples thoughts were on it then eventually move forward to a larger issue which is all 6 mp leaders.

[Dixie]

oh, really? I think it is the most played map on the server and if it's unbalanced I want to know why do you say so. In my opinion Isar Cross is well-balanced map, except maybe time of the day of red player, but it is common thing among other maps too.

Off-topic, so I'll make this short:

This map is mostly considered unbalanced becase it is so small and crowded. Drakes, for exemple, are really bad in it because they have no place to maneuver, which is one of their main strenghts. Likewise, factions/units with less mobility are greatly advantaged (undeads, dwarves, trolls). If the map is still in the default distribution, it really is only because of popular demand, AFAIK.

[AlexanderK]

I think topic starter should provide replays. I still can't get it where is LT overpowered.

[csarmi]

watch any high level games on ladder (with loy+lt) and you'll see why

[AlexanderK]

Balance decisions should never be made based on Isar's Cross, since the map itself is unbalanced.

Spoiler:

Where did I say that balance should be made on a particular map? I think if we get more examples for more maps is better and Isar Cross is one small piece of a balance puzzle, I don't mean to start "Isar Cross is not good" discussion and balance everything for that map, I just made one little example. In my opinion this will be more abstract and difficult => "balance for any map with any number of players vs any combinations of factions vs any terrain and any starting time of a day vs any distances between castles and villages".

Well, I found something:
Orc vs Loyalists (Loyalists loss)
http://wesnoth.gamingladder.info/gamede ... %3A40%3A13

and this one:
Knalgan vs Loyalists (Loyalists win, however this guy even didn't use leadership ability or use Lt in battle)
http://wesnoth.gamingladder.info/gamede ... %3A28%3A53

maybe this one?:
Orcs vs Loyalists (maybe this one is good one)
http://wesnoth.gamingladder.info/gamede ... %3A37%3A20

Now, I think I got it, Lt gives his leadership ability to neighbor units and still has enough moves to get back/forward to a castle to recruit. I do agree that is unfair advantage on small maps or maps with castles all over the map.

But it would be nice to see 2 vs 2 replays too, not only 1 vs 1 ladder duels.

[soul_steven]

Funny the last one was the one I was going to show you:) Another good one i have is here.. this is just one example of getting to recruit/leadership all at same time you can see how easy I used it. Im sure other guys have some replays they could help link for me for evidence perhaps ones pertaining to marksman against orcs or something? In this game im posting if i didn't have LT i would have had to play way different you can see here a prime example of just how powerful this guy is.

[AlexanderK]

But in this replay red player is not lost, he just didn't want to continue to play. I think the problem is in the map "Howling Ghost Badlands", how about other maps and 2x2 replays?

[soul_steven]

what does winning or losing have anything to do with the leader usage? it was a clear result imo. Anyways I will find some replays later this week and hopefully others are looking for them as well to support this.

[Lord-Knightmare]

The lieutenant unit is balanced as it is. Although he has 6 MP, leadership and considerable attacks, he has one major disadvantage - his HP. The low HP guarantees the lieutenant's death to two horsemen (one horseman, during the day, if you're lucky).
I once proposed a stats change for the unit-line, but later decided to make a custom one for my campaigns.

[csarmi]

yea sure

first of all, loyals seldom play vs loyals (mirror matches are rare, most players dislike it)

second, having lower hp (which certainly not low enough just to die easily) does not compensate for a movement radius so high and area of effect even higher

you must understand how important that is

[AlexanderK]

what does winning or losing have anything to do with the leader usage?.

Of course, It does. Here is why: If we take let's say 50 replays with loy+lt vs any_other_faction and 50 replays loy(without lt) vs any_other_faction with players
with equal skills, if number of victories is about the same so we can conclude lt is balanced for 1 vs 1 and if the difference is huge - unbalanced.

[soul_steven]

either way if someone concedes it counts as a victory you don't have to kill the leader for it to count as a win at least imo. As for on track with this I have asked top guys to link some replays to me when they see a good example of LT or other 6 mp leaders in action who are op so we should get some replays soon.

[ZhuQ]

Eh.. Im mostly neutral on this issue but I would think that while 6 movement IS a massive bonus, low hp and weak damage output could easily make up for it... Also, I have played many a game where the LT has been assassinated while using leadership because of his low hp/players inability to defend.

Just my thoughts.