The Hammer of Thursagan portrait repaints

[LordBob]

Comments tend to increase the closer the portrait is to completion, while ideally it should be the other way around. And that´s been the case whether I´ve been active on the forums and asking about specific comments, or if I´ve been away. And that´s not the fault of the commentators, but it is a structural problem that needs to be dealt with if an open source game is going to have great art-direction.

+1 to that. But how could we achieve such an improvement ?
We could try establishing a workflow of sorts, in which a contribution would't go further until it has received the green light from certified reviewers (which is more or less what we already do, but with added formal steps). However, I fear it would a) remove a lot of the flexibility of our current process, b) subject artists to higher restrictions, which is just as likely to drive them away and c) demand increased commitment from both artists and critics. Not sure if we can pull this without going completely professional

[thespaceinvader]

I wouldn't disagree that it's not an ideal process. But neither can I think of a way to improve it. I will ponder the matter.

[homunculus]

Sorry for this and that, and all else.

If the portrait is not bad and might not necessarily need to be redrawn (like dulcatulos got committed in spite of not having exactly human-like anatomy), but you seem to draw hands not very closely attached to body repeatedly, then

Is it intentional that the anatomy has to look comical like that?

was meant as a question, and if the answer is 'no' then suggestion for further portraits.
If the masked dwarf is the last portrait you will be making, ever, then it is of course of no use.

Now, such comments might be discouraging to the artist (sorry), but then maybe there could be such thing like post-commit comments, targeted to improve future drawings?
Right now I would expect an answer like 'The portrait is dead and gone, 'committed', why are you nagging about it?'

[DUHH]

Sorry for this and that, and all else.

If I don't specifically answer your complaint, do you think reposting it three times is the thing to do?

+1 to that. But how could we achieve such an improvement ?
We could try establishing a workflow of sorts, in which a contribution would't go further until it has received the green light from certified reviewers (which is more or less what we already do, but with added formal steps). However, I fear it would a) remove a lot of the flexibility of our current process, b) subject artists to higher restrictions, which is just as likely to drive them away and c) demand increased commitment from both artists and critics. Not sure if we can pull this without going completely professional

Well, that's the nut to crack.

Some sort of increased communication between the artists would help. 95% of all the helpful comments tend to come from the other portrait contributors. Personally I'm really lousy at keeping up with what the other artists are doing, because it simply takes to much time to dig thru the forum and find out what is happening right now and what has already been committed.
So an artists newsletter? Artists mailing group? Something where we can actively seek out each others help, and keep up with what the others are doing without having to scroll thru the forums.

Or a sketch-thread in the Art Development forum, where the sketches have to be "approved" before getting painted. But that might add one step to many.

Right now I feel communication is probably the key. But no... I don't really have any good solution.

[LordBob]

So an artists newsletter? Artists mailing group? Something where we can actively seek out each others help, and keep up with what the others are doing without having to scroll thru the forums.
Or a sketch-thread in the Art Development forum, where the sketches have to be "approved" before getting painted. But that might add one step to many. .

As far as seeking help is concerned, I feel PMs and the IRC channel work fine when one contributor is requiring the help of another one. However, reaching to a wider audience on a regular basis does prove difficult. I think we agree that this is not as much about changing the way we work as it is about helping artists get relevant reviews earlier in the process. And providing skilled reviewers who don't visit the forum on a daily basis an easier access to where their knowledge would help.

Maybe there could exist a system similar to moderation queues, in which a post could be submitted for review (by users belonging to a specific user group - we don't want trolls submitting half the forum) and all submitted posts pile up in a page easily accessible to reviewers. There could even be multiple review groups focusing on different kinds of work (pixel, animated, portrait/story, ...). And of course, the same system could be adapted for other types of contributions (music, code, translations, ... You name it)

Now, I don't know if and how our forum system can be bent in such ways. I also don't know if such a system is truly necessary, as I don't think we ever get more than 10 active contributors at any given time; at least as far as art is concerned. Surely there are simpler, alternate ways of obtaining a similar result.

[beetlenaut]

Or a sketch-thread in the Art Development forum, where the sketches have to be "approved" before getting painted. But that might add one step to many.

This shouldn't be a problem: Your complaint here is that people are pointing out issues after you thought the sketch was finished. (And is that even a real requirement?) Moving this thread to Art Development would get rid of all the posts that are annoying you the most, and leave only the relevant ones. It seems like the solution to me.

[DUHH]

Just dropping by to say I bungled things up, and there won´t be a live-drawing session today. Hopefully I´ll be back next week.

This shouldn't be a problem: Your complaint here is that people are pointing out issues after you thought the sketch was finished. (And is that even a real requirement?) Moving this thread to Art Development would get rid of all the posts that are annoying you the most, and leave only the relevant ones. It seems like the solution to me.

That´s not my problem at all. My problem is that from day 1 of volunteering to do art for Wesnoth, there´s been a heap of problems all related to bad communication and bad production pipelines. And while the art is a fun way for me to learn more about digital painting, these issues are making it a lot less fun and more work than should be necessary. And none of this is handled in the otherwise excellent Attracting and keeping artists on an OSS game project.

I´ll probably add a few ideas to that thread when I have the time.

[DUHH]

Tried to fix the anatomy.

[Pewskeepski]

Just thought I'd say that it looks like his right (our left) hand has those sharp spikes. While his left (our right) does not.

[DUHH]

Well spotted, sir!

Gonna continue the live-drawing in a bit over an hour at: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/denungeherrholm

[DUHH]

Update... Getting ready to add weapons, beards, helmet ornaments, and shield-decorations, to diversify the four different masked dwarves.

[LordBob]

He's (they're) taking good shape. When dealing with ornaments, do remember to add a couple of rivets/ridges/plates to the helms & shields, like you did the pauldrons : right now the former are a tadd simplistic.

Also, a note about the belt buckle : while the design is believeable, I'm wondering if it isn't very modern in its looks, with no functional parts visible and no decoration either.

[DUHH]

He's (they're) taking good shape. When dealing with ornaments, do remember to add a couple of rivets/ridges/plates to the helms & shields, like you did the pauldrons : right now the former are a tadd simplistic.

Thanks! Yeah, I really need to learn the "anatomy of armor", and figure how and why things are put together like they are. I tend to think of everything as single sculpted plates, which I guess isn't the way you actually make stuff.

Also, a note about the belt buckle : while the design is believeable, I'm wondering if it isn't very modern in its looks, with no functional parts visible and no decoration either.

I'm intending to put some decoration on it, different for each dwarf. But maybe I should actually shape it differently for each one? Hmmm... Something to think about.

[tr0ll]

if there is to be ornamentation on the masked dwarves, should it reflect their co-opted loyalty and thwarted initiative? That is to say, rather than proud elements of dwarvish clan heraldry, the masked dwarves might all sport half-hearted or clumsily/hastily forged Hammers of Thursagan, regardless which clan they came from.

[DUHH]

Good point! Thanks!