A multiplayer map for 0-4 players

[pg]

After playing a bit of multiplayer I thought I would try and create a map to play more in tune with what I want. It's small(37x20, I would use 19 instead of 20 but couldn't figure out how) for quick games but most importantly I think I have a really nice balance going on so far. I have added equidistant keeps, with 13 keeps total, which are 8 spaces apart so leaders have to spend 2 turns moving to them(no leader moves 8 right? and none is slower than 4?). The keeps have various sizes(3-6 build spots) and their relationship to the villages means you will most likely want to move depending on your opponents and your own tactics/strategy/starting race.

I'm a newbie so maybe this isn't a new idea but I'm trying to make it so switching to different keeps is viable. This will make the game go quicker as you have less travel time and I think it add an interesting twist. It's a trade off on which keep to move to though. You could goto the middle keep which is the best in theory but it can also be attacked by 4 sides and you could get stuck there. That happened to me when I was testing vs the AI. It's actually somewhat interesting to see the AI on this map IMO because sometimes they switch keeps a few times. The AI that doesn't move seems to lose. The starting keep is the worst one so you should always move. It's just a question of where.

There is also the keep on the way to the middle keep but it only has 3 build spots and is probably harder to defend yet placed to launch attacks near the middle keep and more of the villages. The keeps on the sides of the map are larger(4 build spots) but generally farther away from the action but are closer to more villages than the starting keep(if not by much). I might add some villages near the side keep's and maybe change some keeps build spots to reduce/increase them.

The island in the center is the largest keep(6 build spots) and has the most villages nearby(12). The keeps in the corner, where players start, have 5 build spots and there are 5 villages within easy reach(though none as close as to the center keep). I included forest, mountains, and hills all over the map(with some rivers) as I assume those are most important terrain types for the races(right?). There are also a few choke points.

I'm mainly trying to have a very balanced map that is quick to play while requiring high skill which will hopefully be adopted as a regular map for competitive play. I probably need to add some more detail as there is quite a bit of grass still and the top of the map is sorta ugly with deep water. I'm not sure on the exact settings I recommend yet but probably 100 starting gold and 2-3 gold per village(32 villages total). I would really love some feedback if anyone has some thoughts as this is just a test version to see if my ideas work.

BTW, what does player 0 do? I just set it to the middle keep where no one starts.

[Boucman]

seems interesting, however it has the problem I see on most MP maps sugested here : too few terrain...

you basically put graseland everywhere, and add "extreme" terrains like rivers and road to draw on the map...

in wesnoth, unlike most strategy game I know about, the nature of terrain is of major strategic importance.. and putting only a few patch of forest will greatly reduce the strategies available to players...

the overall layour of keeps is good, the way they are linked with roads and rivers is nice, but I would put some small batches of everything in the background, patches of forest/mountain/swamps to allow each race to try to take cover/lure ennemies on their favorite terrain

[Boucman]

double post, please delete

[pg]

Yeah, I'm in the process of adding more terrain. I'm also moving some stuff around to make each keep a good option while keeping the center keep strongest. Since Wesnoth uses hexes the three keeps in the middle have to be stronger since they take longer to move to. This map probably won't work good for 3 players due to the layout. 2v2, 4 player ffa, and duel should work nicely though. Here is the second version -



It could be changed a bit but I think it's close to final. I rebalanced some stuff after playing some CPUs and add lots of various terrain as suggested.

[Elvish_Pillager]

(no leader moves 8 right? and none is slower than 4?)

Sorry, but Choose Your Leader has been implemented and there are now leaders with moves as low as 3 and as high as 10.

[pg]

Normal leaders in default multiplayer can move more than 7?

[Elvish_Pillager]

Normal leaders in default multiplayer can move more than 7?

Elvish Riders can now be leaders. Dwarvish Stalwarts can now be leaders. Goblin Knights can now be leaders. Dragoons can now be leaders. Knights can now be leaders. Goblin Pillagers can now be leaders.

[pg]

It will need play testing then. Leaders that move a lot may unbalance the map but they may not. At worst you could just agree that only leaders moving less than 7 can be used.

I played a game vs Demeter along with 2 CPUs(4 person FFA). He managed to snag the middle keep and the surrounding towns securing his eventual victory. If humans had been playing instead of CPUs it may have been different as yellow(a CPU), who was fighting Demeter, played dumb and moved his leader to a village outside the middle keep. Yellow could have retreated to a different keep and bought more units but he wouldn't budge. That is one thing I've noticed on this map vs the CPU they can decide for some reason to stay on a village near the middle keep even if another player has already occupied it. Green(a CPU), didn't play very well either. CPUs can do decent, I've seen, but they need to build up a strong economic base quickly and move to a good keep in regards to their circumstances.

It could really use testing in a 2v2, duel or 4 FFA with all humans. Hopefully I can play some more games on it. I also changed the name to reflect the map better instead of something generic like it was before. I also changed a few minor things, and two misplaced hills.

[muxec]

New leaders are available only in bleeding edge CVS, right?

[pg]

Played another game on it with 3 players and 1 CPU in FFA. Was pretty interesting. I took middle keep first but had to retreat to another castle due to my leader losing half his health. Blue then occupied the middle. The green player attacked middle keep too so it was a big fight with blue slowly winning even though he had a very low income. The funny part is the CPU stayed back while the humans fought and now has the largest income with a good size force. We quit there at about turn 14 or so but it was still anyone's game. Middle maybe too strong. I Might have to reduce the villages there, make the castle have less build spots or just get rid of the castle.

[pg]

Here is a new version. Seems more balanced. Middle is weakened while starting positions are strengthed a bit. Two gold per village is recommended with 100 starting gold and whatever experience percentage you like.

[bear]

It is a fun map and worthy of multiplayer. I must say that it should be kept FFA instead of teams, only because the team that has a roaming outside and control of the middle keep is going to win. The two teams outside have no chance, because middle is ok to defend. Not easy against FFA, but easy if you have an outside force backing you up.

In general, playing it makes you understand it's a bit more balanced than it looks. The terrain is suited for orcs and dwarves. Elves can compete, but with so much mountain terrain in the middle, orcs and dwarves have advantage. Humans may have trouble defending the terrain. Although they might be a decent attack force. Drakes... fuggehaboutit. The only thing they might posses that is helpful is flight. But even then, there's so much landform that people can easily defend against drakes. Undead are decent, however, i noticed that in the daytime, it's EXTREMELY easy to pick them off one at a time. Whereas, orcs, even with a negative bonus during the daytime, can hold decently.

The new changes really help to balance out the map more as the center keep has been adjusted for less castle terrain as well as less villages so that healing quickly is not a huge factor in favor of the middle keep holder.

Good map. Worthy (IMHO) to be placed amongst the other maps of Wesnoth.

[pg]

I must say that it should be kept FFA instead of teams, only because the team that has a roaming outside and control of the middle keep is going to win. The two teams outside have no chance, because middle is ok to defend.

I'm not sure if this is true. I haven't gotten to play a 2v2 on it yet or a duel. I think now the middle is more balanced. There are only 6 villages in the middle yet 42 in the rest of the map. Economic might would eventually win out if they they moved a leader to the middle castle and couldn't hold a majority of the rest map too.

In general, playing it makes you understand it's a bit more balanced than it looks. The terrain is suited for orcs and dwarves. Elves can compete, but with so much mountain terrain in the middle, orcs and dwarves have advantage. Humans may have trouble defending the terrain.

Any recommended changes? I want to balance it as good as possible. Right now it has a good smattering of forest, hills, and mountains with some extensive rivers. Perhaps too many mountains?

Good map. Worthy (IMHO) to be placed amongst the other maps of Wesnoth.

Thank you. I hope is deemed good enough to be included though right now it is still a work in progress.

[pg]

Here is the map in full if anyone wants to see it. Took me a while to make that and it's still not perfect.

[bear]

I'm not sure if this is true. I haven't gotten to play a 2v2 on it yet or a duel. I think now the middle is more balanced. There are only 6 villages in the middle yet 42 in the rest of the map. Economic might would eventually win out if they they moved a leader to the middle castle and couldn't hold a majority of the rest map too.

No, because the other team would either have to concentrate on breaching the center, or, the center would get too powerfull and break out to get nearby surround villages.

Any recommended changes? I want to balance it as good as possible. Right now it has a good smattering of forest, hills, and mountains with some extensive rivers. Perhaps too many mountains?

That may help. Put in a little more roads/grassland (not too much), just a little more to help out the disadvantage humans have. And by getting rid of some (not a lot) of the mountains, it would cut down slightly on the advantage orcs/trolls and dwarves have.