FINISHED - metal sparkle animation, example included

Contribute art for mainline Wesnoth.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Forum rules
Before posting critique in this forum, you must read the following thread:
User avatar
Jetrel
Art Director
Posts: 7242
Joined: February 23rd, 2004, 3:36 am
Location: Midwest US

Re: REQUEST - metal sparkle animation, example included

Post by Jetrel » April 7th, 2010, 10:00 am

@ groovy: looks good, I'll work on a commit. :D
Beetlenaut wrote:@Jet: Is your side project GPL?
Frogatto's code is GPL, frogatto's art and music are "all rights reserved".

Note: since we're sane, we're quite open to individual requests for certain graphics to be open-licensed. It's quite plausible for us to do that with the more reuseable/generic elements, whereas character-specific stuff is less likely to be opened.
Zarel wrote:For reference, it is possible to dual-license your work, Jetrel. You can give the same piece of artwork a proprietary license for Frogatto, and an open license for Wesnoth.
No, I can't - once an item is GPL, it's not GPL "for one project"; it's just GPL. Period. For everything. I could grant special permission for individual entities to use things, but that's not GPL, and wesnoth doesn't accept anything that isn't GPL.

That said, we have GPLed some of our old tiles, and we've also GPLed all of our audio loops, (which are kinda shared between wesnoth, allacrost, and frogatto).
Beetlenaut wrote:@Jet: Is your side project GPL? I was trying to work out how to make a good-looking sparkle for some crystals in a cave, and then you post one! Can I use it? I'd like to use something different from what may become a leader animation. (I noticed the same thing you did about the frame rate of sparkles in a earlier project of mine.)
You're free to derive from it by creating your own. By all means, please do heavily derive/copy-paste from mine, but at the least, you'll have to impose your color table on it to look decent. ( a similar color table to the crystals from which it comes.
Play Frogatto & Friends - a finished, open-source adventure game!

User avatar
pauxlo
Posts: 1046
Joined: September 19th, 2006, 8:54 pm

Re: REQUEST - metal sparkle animation, example included

Post by pauxlo » April 7th, 2010, 2:49 pm

Jetrel wrote:
Zarel wrote:For reference, it is possible to dual-license your work, Jetrel. You can give the same piece of artwork a proprietary license for Frogatto, and an open license for Wesnoth.
No, I can't - once an item is GPL, it's not GPL "for one project"; it's just GPL. Period. For everything. I could grant special permission for individual entities to use things, but that's not GPL, and wesnoth doesn't accept anything that isn't GPL.
It would be GPL for the whole world (i.e. for everyone who took it from Wesnoth), but it can on the same time have your proprietary license for use in Frogatto, and even more other licences.
(I do not advocate this, only wanting to clarify.)

User avatar
thespaceinvader
Retired Art Director
Posts: 8414
Joined: August 25th, 2007, 10:12 am
Location: Oxford, UK
Contact:

Re: REQUEST - metal sparkle animation, example included

Post by thespaceinvader » April 7th, 2010, 2:55 pm

Well yes - the point here is that the freedoms of GPL make the restrictive license irrelevant. If you can obtain the image (for instance) under GPL, then you can get it from the GPL project, whether it;s licensed restrictively in the non GPL one or not.

Noone's saying dual licensing is not possible - but it removes the point of one of the licenses.
http://thespaceinvader.co.uk | http://thespaceinvader.deviantart.com
Back to work. Current projects: Catching up on commits. Picking Meridia back up. Sprite animations, many and varied.

User avatar
Sgt. Groovy
Art Contributor
Posts: 1471
Joined: May 22nd, 2006, 9:15 pm
Location: Helsinki

Re: REQUEST - metal sparkle animation, example included

Post by Sgt. Groovy » April 7th, 2010, 8:38 pm

Jetrel wrote:@ groovy: looks good, I'll work on a commit.
Wow, that would actually be my first original work to be committed. The only other ones so far has been a recolour of the old troll portrait (when the trolls turned from green to grey) and village designs that were pixelpainted by someone else. Would this qualify for an entry in the credits? :)
Tiedäthän kuinka pelataan.
Tiedäthän, vihtahousua vastaan.
Tiedäthän, solmu kravatin, se kantaa niin synnit
kuin syntien tekijätkin.

User avatar
thespaceinvader
Retired Art Director
Posts: 8414
Joined: August 25th, 2007, 10:12 am
Location: Oxford, UK
Contact:

Re: REQUEST - metal sparkle animation, example included

Post by thespaceinvader » April 7th, 2010, 9:02 pm

Definitely IMO. Had it been me committing your earlier stuff, you would have been in already ;)
http://thespaceinvader.co.uk | http://thespaceinvader.deviantart.com
Back to work. Current projects: Catching up on commits. Picking Meridia back up. Sprite animations, many and varied.

User avatar
Jetrel
Art Director
Posts: 7242
Joined: February 23rd, 2004, 3:36 am
Location: Midwest US

Re: REQUEST - metal sparkle animation, example included

Post by Jetrel » April 8th, 2010, 2:17 am

pauxlo wrote:It would be GPL for the whole world (i.e. for everyone who took it from Wesnoth), but it can on the same time have your proprietary license for use in Frogatto, and even more other licences.
(I do not advocate this, only wanting to clarify.)
:annoyed: You don't understand this. Read TSI's post.

If you're confused because of, say, trolltech's QT: That kind of Dual-licensing only makes sense when you're, say, selling code that someone wants to integrate into a larger closed-source codebase of their own - This is a great economic incentive when the customer absolutely does NOT want the GPL, and is willing to pay thousands of dollars to not have to GPL their own work.

However, this offers zero protection against some guy like Kyle Poole basically coming in, finding this game I spent a couple years making, and deciding that he's going to make all the money on it, rather than me. The GPL offers no way to guarantee that we're the only people who can make money off of it. It allows anyone to sell it, and if they happen to not have to do all the other fussy work of "actually making the game", they'll be much better at selling and marketing it than us. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with him doing that on wesnoth. Wesnoth was a big community project, and he had to do a lot of hard (and subsequently GPLed) work to do it. I didn't expect to ever make a dime off my work here.

But I'd have a huge problem if anyone did it to something me and a few other guys did all the work on, and were collectively hoping to cash in on. In fact, I would be a buffoon. A tragic fool.


This is why a huge and impossible-to-trivially-duplicate portion of frogatto is completely "rights reserved". Look on the bright side - we've discovered a way to make money that still allows us to open source stuff at all.
Play Frogatto & Friends - a finished, open-source adventure game!

User avatar
Zerovirus
Art Contributor
Posts: 1693
Joined: July 8th, 2009, 4:51 pm

Re: REQUEST - metal sparkle animation, example included

Post by Zerovirus » April 8th, 2010, 2:19 am

Somehow this discussion reminds me of what happened with Nexuiz, though I'm no expert in licensing affairs.

User avatar
Gambit
Loose Screw
Posts: 3266
Joined: August 13th, 2008, 3:00 pm
Location: Dynamica
Contact:

Re: REQUEST - metal sparkle animation, example included

Post by Gambit » April 8th, 2010, 2:26 am

Jetrel wrote:some guy like Kyle Poole ...
Sometimes one smiley is really enough: :|
But we are getting far off track here. Splitting time?

User avatar
Zarel
Posts: 700
Joined: July 15th, 2009, 8:24 am
Location: Minnesota, USA
Contact:

Re: REQUEST - metal sparkle animation, example included

Post by Zarel » April 8th, 2010, 3:18 am

Jetrel wrote:However, this offers zero protection against some guy like Kyle Poole basically coming in, finding this game I spent a couple years making, and deciding that he's going to make all the money on it, rather than me. The GPL offers no way to guarantee that we're the only people who can make money off of it. It allows anyone to sell it, and if they happen to not have to do all the other fussy work of "actually making the game", they'll be much better at selling and marketing it than us. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with him doing that on wesnoth. Wesnoth was a big community project, and he had to do a lot of hard (and subsequently GPLed) work to do it. I didn't expect to ever make a dime off my work here.
I'm sure people don't have enough to rip off Frogatto just because a GPL version of its sparkle animation exists. That's what I was suggesting... Telling someone to rip off your sparkle animation isn't much different from just dual-licensing it as GPL, neither from a legal standpoint nor from a pragmatic one.
Proud creator of the :whistle: smiley | I prefer the CC-0 license.

User avatar
Jetrel
Art Director
Posts: 7242
Joined: February 23rd, 2004, 3:36 am
Location: Midwest US

Re: REQUEST - metal sparkle animation, example included

Post by Jetrel » April 9th, 2010, 7:39 am

Zarel wrote:I'm sure people don't have enough to rip off Frogatto just because a GPL version of its sparkle animation exists.
:annoyed: My point was that they could rip off frogatto if if ALL of Frogatto was GPL. Like wesnoth is.



That's what I was suggesting... Telling someone to rip off your sparkle animation isn't much different from just dual-licensing it as GPL, neither from a legal standpoint nor from a pragmatic one.
In this case, I didn't want to license it, because I wanted wesnoth to have a unique one. And lo and behold, there it is. If you have any requests about reusing specific animations or such, ask away.


Gambit wrote:
Jetrel wrote:some guy like Kyle Poole ...
Sometimes one smiley is really enough: :|
I don't begrudge him, because he and I have similar goals - not working sh1tty jobs we hate.
But he's a powerful example, to show that this is a very real danger for saleable IP. In fact I don't know of a better one.

I didn't want any yap about how that might not actually happen. The greek chorus of freetards usually start screeching at this point about how everything should be open-source, and I wanted some rigor to my argument that that might really hurt me.

Gambit wrote:But we are getting far off track here. Splitting time?
I'm the moderator, and this thread doesn't need to be split - the thread is mostly finished, since the request has been fulfilled.

User avatar
Zarel
Posts: 700
Joined: July 15th, 2009, 8:24 am
Location: Minnesota, USA
Contact:

Re: REQUEST - metal sparkle animation, example included

Post by Zarel » April 9th, 2010, 8:45 am

Jetrel wrote:I don't begrudge him, because he and I have similar goals - not working sh1tty jobs we hate.
But he's a powerful example, to show that this is a very real danger for saleable IP. In fact I don't know of a better one.

I didn't want any yap about how that might not actually happen. The greek chorus of freetards usually start screeching at this point about how everything should be open-source, and I wanted some rigor to my argument that that might really hurt me.
Hrm.

How's about CC-BY-NC? Enables some level of freedom, without letting people profit off you.

Semi-closed platforms like the iPhone are really the only situation where that matters significantly, though. And even then, I suppose someone could resubmit the app for free. I haven't done it so far because it would be what we Americans colloquially refer to as a "dick move", but it's an option.
Proud creator of the :whistle: smiley | I prefer the CC-0 license.

User avatar
jaimeastorga2000
Posts: 29
Joined: July 25th, 2009, 12:28 pm

Re: REQUEST - metal sparkle animation, example included

Post by jaimeastorga2000 » April 10th, 2010, 6:02 pm

Zarel wrote:How's about CC-BY-NC? Enables some level of freedom, without letting people profit off you.
I don't think that'd work for the purposes of inclusion in Wesnoth. As far as I know, every one of the 6 main CC licenses is incompatible with the GPL (the FSF specifically mentions that CC-BY and CC-BY-SA are incompatible, at least), which is the license under which all Wesnoth art is published.

Sangel
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 2232
Joined: March 26th, 2004, 10:58 pm
Location: New York, New York

Re: REQUEST - metal sparkle animation, example included

Post by Sangel » April 10th, 2010, 6:40 pm

jaimeastorga2000 wrote:I don't think that'd work for the purposes of inclusion in Wesnoth. As far as I know, every one of the 6 main CC licenses is incompatible with the GPL (the FSF specifically mentions that CC-BY and CC-BY-SA are incompatible, at least), which is the license under which all Wesnoth art is published.
Saying that the two licenses are "incompatible" doesn't necessarily mean that Wesnoth couldn't license its code under GPL and its art and music under some variant of Creative Commons (almost certainly with a Share-Alike provision). However, it is almost certain that that would result in weird situations where you could use one part of the project but not the other.

As far as I can tell from a quick jaunt through Westlaw, nobody has published a legal analysis of the likely results of combining GPL-copyrighted code with CC-copyrighted art in this way. Given the relatively sparse litigation of GPL and CC copyrights to date, I suppose that's not surprising. It might make for an interesting law review article for someone interested in Intellectual Property - perhaps I'll ask Moglen's opinion next time I see him.
"Pure logic is the ruin of the spirit." - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

User avatar
Zarel
Posts: 700
Joined: July 15th, 2009, 8:24 am
Location: Minnesota, USA
Contact:

Re: REQUEST - metal sparkle animation, example included

Post by Zarel » April 10th, 2010, 7:20 pm

jaimeastorga2000 wrote:I don't think that'd work for the purposes of inclusion in Wesnoth. As far as I know, every one of the 6 main CC licenses is incompatible with the GPL (the FSF specifically mentions that CC-BY and CC-BY-SA are incompatible, at least), which is the license under which all Wesnoth art is published.
I'm talking about Frogatto, not Wesnoth. CC-BY-NC obviously doesn't work for FOSS works.
Proud creator of the :whistle: smiley | I prefer the CC-0 license.

User avatar
Jetrel
Art Director
Posts: 7242
Joined: February 23rd, 2004, 3:36 am
Location: Midwest US

Re: REQUEST - metal sparkle animation, example included

Post by Jetrel » April 11th, 2010, 10:43 am

Zarel wrote:How's about CC-BY-NC? Enables some level of freedom, without letting people profit off you.

Semi-closed platforms like the iPhone are really the only situation where that matters significantly, though. And even then, I suppose someone could resubmit the app for free. I haven't done it so far because it would be what we Americans colloquially refer to as a "ass move", but it's an option.
Emphasis mine. A strong possibility - people crack software for the same 'moral' imperative of imposing "free as in beer" on other people's stuff. Which is why I'm choosing not to release the rights for now.


Actually, kyle already might have had to compete with that, I believe. I'll have to check, but I do think someone uploaded a free-as-in-beer version of wesnoth at some point. Fortunately for Kyle, he's quite good at what he does, and wesnoth is really difficult to make playable on the iPhone, so the free-as-in-beer version was so bad that I guess it was forgotten. Or might have been rejected/removed. I'll have to check in on that - I don't know if I heard a bogus rumor or not.
Play Frogatto & Friends - a finished, open-source adventure game!

Post Reply