Northerners vs. Undead - help needed

[gorgolok]

This is the matchup that gives me the most trouble, and I'd like to improve. I am aware that trolls and archers should be my weapons of choice, grunts and nagas aren't all that great, the assassin is near useless, wolf riders don't accomplish a lot, and are like giving free exp to bats and ghosts, and goblins die too quickly.

My major problem is how to deal with ghosts. It seems unless I can ZoC them and pummel them with 2 archers, I don't have much of a chance of killing them. And if the ghost levels into a wraith, I find it's usually hopeless to even try and kill it, unless I have crossbowmen.

I found unless the opponent recruits badly I haven't got much of a chance against undead with northies. I'd be grateful if anyone could help me.

[Sorrow]

Wolf riders can accomplish a lot in this matchup. If you use it as a finishing unit and get it off the front line quickly, an int one (17xp) can level into a pillager and destroy almost every undead unit with ease. Even adepts are less effective against it as they can get slowed after their first attack. If you recruit an assassin vs random, which isn't the greatest plan, you can use one to fight off bats pretty effectively. I always choose a slayer as a leader and he can can defeat bats pretty easily if they get too close.

Ghost aren't much trouble, they don't do much damage and if one does appear on the battlefield you can kill it with 3 archer strikes.

ToD can vary in this matchup as trolls get fearless randomly, and corpse/ghouls have it all the time. If he has a lot of fearless stuff, and you are p1 attack at dusk or first watch. If you are p2 attacking at second watch can be good because as soon as your turn ends its dawn and he loses his +25%.

If he has more night time stuff and less fearless things you are in the clear to attack at day with trolls/grunts/archers. Grunts make nice adept mashers, archers and trolls take care of everything else. Night time units implies skeletons, so archers and trolls are even better. Grunts can make short work of a few corpses at night time as well.

Its not as straightforward as this though. Pay attention to who has the most fearless stuff and play accordingly.

And use your scouts almost like mages till you get a pillager. And be careful about mobility, UD are very slow, but a troll heavy orc army is not as fast as it usually is.

[Darkmage]

Sorrow is right, but anyway, in big maps wolves are ok to wander around and capture villages also it depends on if the enemy focus all his army on you or not, most times on a big map some players only attack on zone while the rest of the map is free, your oportunity to steal villages and when him notices wil send bats or ghosts, and since bats are way cheaper, it will probably sen bats, and you can kill bats easy, if you manage to get more villages and you are constant you are in a great advantage, your units are way cheaper 12 grunt 13 troll and 15 archer against 14archer 15 skeleton 16adept 20 ghost is likely that you get more units and your enemy's first unit to be discarded of play is going to be ghost (weak unit archer killable is no worth if things go thight) also if your enemy tends to create armies of adepts poorly protected, grunts kill them and a ghost spam drains tons of money, so is not much like a spawn. And as sorrow says: If you get a pillager you will give pain.

So your advantage is having cheaper and also resilent unit, also try as is logical, to use trolls against archers before leveling, counter of skeletons dangerous and for skeletons, archers well protected

[csarmi]

What I usually do is getting a grunt-based army, just like you would against other factions. An assasin is handy if you have to remove a nasty bat, wolves are needed (you always need scouts/flankers and they have a good blade damage with 3 strikes). If your opponent goes skeletons hvy, you might consider getting more trolls/archers, than usual (which is still not too much). Nagas are often handy, they're good vs adepts even (on grassland or any terrain) - just make sure you get to strike 1st because their cold resist sucks.

Maybe grunts do reduced damage against skeletons (not a BAD damage still, skellie's blade resist is not THAT good), but they certainly do full damage to the important units (adepts), their high swings may help vs ghosts (well ghosts are easily killed in other ways, but that's besides the point) and they have tons of hp (cheaper + faster than trolls too) which, again, helps against adepts and make them great at holding villages.

Usual tactics, attack, hold the villages, kill what you can, conserve hp's as well as you can and maintain your advantage by evercoming ubercheap units.

[Velensk]

Do not make the mistake or regarding grunts and wolves as not good. You want to feed your wolf kills as much as you can, and grunts are your best tool for killing adepts (which are his best tool) but are much cheaper than adepts. Grunts may not be good against skelotons but most of the time you shouldn't need to use them on skelotons as archers/trolls do a fine job of defeating skelotons, it's the adepts that are the problem there. I do agree that assassins are not a great choice of purchase.

[TheGreatRings]

Do not make the mistake or regarding grunts and wolves as not good.

You may make a good point about Grunts vs Adepts, but I don't get why wolves would be so effective. Wolves are frankly the last unit I would think to recruit in a Northerner vs Undead fight. Maybe vs Adepts or one or two on a big map as scouts, but not against anything else.

You want to feed your wolf kills as much as you can, and grunts are your best tool for killing adepts (which are his best tool) but are much cheaper than adepts. Grunts may not be good against skelotons but most of the time you shouldn't need to use them on skelotons as archers/trolls do a fine job of defeating skelotons, it's the adepts that are the problem there.

Yes, I think I would got with mainly trolls and archers. You're right about Grunts being abel to fight Adepts, but I prefer trolls purely for the regeneration (and impact vs skeletons).

I do agree that assassins are not a great choice of purchase.

I don't know, I'd think ranged poison would be a good way to defend against adepts.

[Sorrow]

A 17 gold unit that will get 3 shotted by adepts, and loses its greatest advantage (defense) is NOT a _remotely_ good choice for fighting undead in any capacity. Except 1 accidental one that can chase bats around, thats not a total loss.

Wolves are important in every matchup. If you have none you cant scout, which is critical. You lack speed to keep up with harassing bats and perhaps ghosts (less likely). You cannot pressure his villages from safety, important to limit his movement when you attack. You lose the chance of getting a pillager which is just plain devastating against undead 17xp is easy to level, even 21 isn't that bad.

[Mystery]

You'll probably have one or two wolves for the initial capture phase and then want to keep them for vision purposes. They're crappy against every faction, not just Undead, but you don't really buy them for their amazing combat prowess. Pillagers own against everything, though. You should especially strive to level them against Undead since the Fire damage is so devastating. For what it's worth, a Wolf is also the best flanker you have against less-protected Adepts.

Assassins are good to deter overuse of Adepts. Their ineffectiveness against everything else Undead and the fact Adepts aren't likely to be massed that much in the first place (else Grunts and friends run them over) are generally going to see them minimal use. But hey, one time I fought this guy who recruited nothing but Ghouls and Adepts and they served me well there...

[csarmi]

Assasins are the very worst thing you can get if your opponent recruits adepts, if he gets ghouls too, even more so.
I simply don't understand why you would even consider them. I mean it's evident that adepts are the perfect counter-units to assasins so...

As for wolves being crappy vs any faction: their damage is decent and they have a good movetype. I like them as scouts. They also provide somewhat more reliable damage wth their 3 strikes.

[Sorrow]

Assasins are the very worst thing you can get if your opponent recruits adepts, if he gets ghouls too, even more so.
I simply don't understand why you would even consider them. I mean it's evident that adepts are the perfect counter-units to assasins so...

As for wolves being crappy vs any faction: their damage is decent and they have a good movetype. I like them as scouts. They also provide somewhat more reliable damage wth their 3 strikes.

Most important note to make about the orc faction ever! Overdramatized but.... orcs are big on 2 attacks. Having some 3 strikers around is very important!

[SillySod]

Wolves are handy vs undead because you can use them for....
- capturing villages
- threatening to capture villages
- eating bats
- eating adepts
- doing that little bit of extra damage where you need it
- leveling into pillagers (which are ridiculously good vs undead)
- using their speed to trap things
- other stuff which needs speed (sitting on recruiting hexes is a classic one)

They probably wont do all that much damage but they fill some important roles for any game. Just make sure you dont get them into unwinnable battles vs ghosts and things

[Araja]

Assassins aren't useless just about every other unit you can recruit can fail utterly and repeatedly to kill 1 stupid bat.

And besides, 70% defence causes just as much problems to a skeleton and it does to a spearman, just because they're immune to poison doesn't mean they're immune to the "WTF?!?!!? 9 misses!!" kind of thing

[Darkmage]

And besides, 70% defence causes just as much problems to a skeleton and it does to a spearman, just because they're immune to poison doesn't mean they're immune to the "WTF?!?!!? 9 misses!!" kind of thing

That's quite ok, but they mean against adept, yes, the ones with magical attacks, but anyway, as you say assasins have nice evade rate if you are fighting archers, ghuls, bats or ghosts ok but adepts kill them, but get poisoned, and skeletons when hit deal lots of damage to them... but they are waay expensive compared to other most important orcish units.

[TheGreatRings]

Assasins are the very worst thing you can get if your opponent recruits adepts, if he gets ghouls too, even more so.
I simply don't understand why you would even consider them. I mean it's evident that adepts are the perfect counter-units to assasins so...

I disagree, but your right about their uselessness against ghouls.

As for wolves being crappy vs any faction: their damage is decent and they have a good movetype. I like them as scouts. They also provide somewhat more reliable damage wth their 3 strikes.

Perhaps, but I would think a couple good punches from a troll would do more to a skeleton.

I'm not saying its a bad idea to have one or two around for scouts, especially on a large map. Just that I think they're being a little overrated here. But, I'll concede I might be wrong. I don't have much experience with playing either of these factions, especially Northerners.

[siowy]

i play northies exclusively when i'm serious.

against ud, DA are the main concerns. if he gets enough DA, then some walking corpses, you're probably lost.

trolls are the core of your army against ud, as you know. archers are important against ghosts and good against walking corpses.

as mentioned earlier, grunts are important to have, even though they are not good brawling against skeles. this is due to their big damage against DA. you Have to kill DA as fast as possible before his DA wipe out too much of your army. the fact that grunts only have 2 attacks can be an advantage against skeles. since they do 6 or 7 damage against skeles at night(iirc), they are likely to hit at least one attack, to get the kill against skeles.

i always pick troll rocklobber as leader, if you want to know.

i never recruit wolves unless i have cash in the middle of the game and i need a unit or two to reach the battlefront quickly to help out.

i find that naga can be powerful against ud, depending on how much water there is on the map. in weldyn channel for example(my fav map), gaining control of the centre lake with naga(which ud cannot contest) means that you can transfer naga from side to side very quickly. naga are good at zoc-ing, sitting on a village against one unit if necessary, finishing DA and walking corpses.

if possible, i divert exp to orcish archers, second best is trolls or whoever needs heal.

i never get assassins vs ud and i don't think they are worth their 17g against bats.

i find that the late game vs ud on a small-medium map like den/weldyn/freelands is very bad if the ud just gets DA and walking corpses, and they easily take out 2-3 units per turn on the frontline.