Campaigns: Quantity v Quality of Units

[potatomanjack]

Hi Everyone,

I'm a big player of campaigns. For me, most of the fun is leveling up multiple units to their most advanced state, and then moving those core units along.

I'm now in the middle (scenario 13) of HttT on medium difficulty (my first time through this campaign). I've got a pretty decent recall list:

Level 3
2 x Paladin
1 x Grand Knight
1 x Shyde
1 x Avenger
1 x Sharpshooter
1 x Champion
1 x Elvish Captain Guy (can't remember name fr this unit type)
1 x Silver Mage
Konrad & Elf Lord

Level 2
1 x Knight
1 x Marksman
2 x Red Mage
2 x White Mage
1 x Elf Horserider
2 x Merman Warrior
1 x Merman Netcaster
1 x Mermaid Enchantress

These guys have been pretty much carrying me along without much trouble, and I've only really recruited 1-2 level 1 units per level to act as fodder or scouts so that I don't lose a higher level.

The thing about this, is that pretty much all the units that are getting the kills are already leveled up, or will be totally levelled pretty soon. This makes me thing that I should be recruiting more level one units again and getting them advanced so that I have more breadth of powerful units in case things in the other later scenarios get really tough and I have to lose some of of my leveled units. On the other hand, I was thinking that I could continue to max level them so that they get higher total HP numbers, and really focus on the quality of the people I have in the field.

Just curious if anyone has any advice on this, and whether I'll be putting myself into a bad place by following either one of these strategies.

Cheers,

PMJ

[Turuk]

This makes me thing that I should be recruiting more level one units again and getting them advanced so that I have more breadth of powerful units in case on the other later scenarios gets really tough and I have to lose some of of my leveled units. On the other hand, I was thinking that I could continue to max level them so that they get higher total HP numbers, and really focus on the quality of the people I have in the field.

While having more HP might be nice, the benefit is minimal for the amount of experience you would have to feed a level 3 for it to hit AMLA. I usually keep recruiting a few level 1s to feed them experience so that I have more higher level units to spare in case I lose some of them.

For the 150 experience needed for a Dwarvish Lord to hit an AMLA, you could feed a Dwarvish Figther 115 experience and eventually have a second Dwarvish Lord.

[Skrim]

In campaigns, the formula is simple: keep giving a unit XP until it hits it's maximum level. Then try not to give it kills and feed XP to units which can level instead. The 'mentor system' is useful here in that the max-leveled unit/s can bring down an opponent's HP and then a low-level unit can take the kill and bag the XP.

Loyal units should be priority in leveling up, since their upkeep never increases. I also get 1 or 2 leadership units and healers early on to help the rest of my army level faster.

[peet]

In a long campaign like HttT there's room to level lots of units, and you will need a variety of units to survive.

For example, later on you start getting Dwarves and these are pretty important to level up. I also notice that you don't have any outlaws so I assume that from the Bay of Pearls you didn't go by sea to the Isle of the Damned, which is too bad since footpads, thugs and poachers all have their uses. But you should have got some loyal thieves in the Siege of Elensifar, so you should definitely level them up.

I'd probably get a couple more elvish shamans going, and level the quick one into a druid, the other into a sorceress. Another Elvish Marshal (that's the leader one) would be good also if he's quick. I also like Elvish Scouts for those wide-open cavalry maps. Another Elvish Ranger/Avenger would also be good for those forested maps.

Your Red Mages I'd recommend that you level them all into Silver Mages (except perhaps one). The teleportation ability is very useful and they are a good "tutor" unit to do a lot of damage to somebody but still leave him alive. Yes, Grand Mages are very very powerful, but they will usually be killing everything in sight and it would be better not to give XP to a unit like that. At most make one of your mages into an Archmage in case you need the firepower. Intelligent/Quick is probably the best combo for the Archmage/Grand Mage line because you'll need lots of XP and you also want that mage to be able to keep up with your front line through rough terrain.

As a rule, if the fight you're in doesn't seem too serious, recruit level 1's and recall your 2's, and only bring in your 3's if they are good support units. For the really big scenarios you will need to bring out your "big guns" and a lot of them, so make sure you've got them.

Peet

[potatomanjack]

Cool, thanks for the advice everyone.

I very much like the mentor idea, and will start to bring up some more level 1s.

I do have one max leveled thief/assassin from the Siege battle (forgot about him). I haven't found him all that useful so far... Should I level a couple more of them?

PMJ

[The_great_new_thing]

I do have one max leveled thief/assassin from the Siege battle (forgot about him). I haven't found him all that useful so far... Should I level a couple more of them?PMJ

Have you ever tried to use his skirmish ability, or backstabbing, or poison, or the lovely high defense??? How can you say he's not useful???

First time I played HttT, i also just leveled up some units and kept recalling them over and over. The last battle was horrible, because i didn't have many high level troops. Try to level up level 1 units using the mentor system, or perhaps leadership, and always recall level 1 units about to advance, or recruit some while starting the scenario, so that they can soak up some damage first, and even if some die, you wouldn't feel as bad as you would if your captain just dropped dead. This way, you can also advance troops quickly.

[potatomanjack]

Have you ever tried to use his skirmish ability, or backstabbing, or poison, or the lovely high defense??? How can you say he's not useful???

First time I played HttT, i also just leveled up some units and kept recalling them over and over. The last battle was horrible, because i didn't have many high level troops. Try to level up level 1 units using the mentor system, or perhaps leadership, and always recall level 1 units about to advance, or recruit some while starting the scenario, so that they can soak up some damage first, and even if some die, you wouldn't feel as bad as you would if your captain just dropped dead. This way, you can also advance troops quickly.

Maybe I'm not using him correctly. Backstab and poison are useful, but I find that to backstab, a lot of the time that means putting him in a position where he will get crushed on the next turn (if he's fighting near/in the main line). Away from the main battle he's more useful, but he still needs 1-2 other units in order to finish the job.

Any tips on how to use the Assassin better, as it sounds like I'm not getting the most out of him.

[The_great_new_thing]

Yeah, he's often isolated from the rest of the army. Support him with a healer, and some other units. Don't forget the high defense he gets!! this really comes in handy here. If he gets injured, take him behind your lines to heal, and bring out the other assassin. After the new assassin is also injured, leave him to heal, and take out your now-fully-healed old assassin. Thats what I do, anyway.

[forbiddian]

Yeah, he's often isolated from the rest of the army. Support him with a healer, and some other units. Don't forget the high defense he gets!! this really comes in handy here. If he gets injured, take him behind your lines to heal, and bring out the other assassin. After the new assassin is also injured, leave him to heal, and take out your now-fully-healed old assassin. Thats what I do, anyway.

I don't like the Assassin unit in long campaigns. I don't think you're missing out on anything by not recruiting those.

He has a very high dodge chance, but the campaign is all about MYOL (make your own luck). The fact is that if you play him to his best ability, he will be sticking his neck out at night every night, and he has very low hitpoints. Eventually, he's going to die, as any two level twos with good rolls will drop him.

Also, he's generally a very specialized unit and the campaign demands a lot of flexibility from any leveled mainline units. He's a scalpel at night in wide open battles, but during the day when you're making pushes he's not good. In closed battles, even at night, his damage is lower than anybody else's (closed battles makes it very hard to use backstab), so he's not even worth the hex for the nighttime counterattack a lot of the time.

Campaign play lends itself to closed battles because of a low number of buildings, presence of non-expendable troops, and the ease with which healers can be recruited and shepherded to max level over time. Unless you play an open strategy for whatever reason (not saying it's impossible, just that I think most people bulk up on healers and just tank the nights).


In HttT, you get a few in the Siege of Elensefar, but beyond those loyals I don't see a need to recruit any more. The loyals are excellent troops as they're great at shepherding (they have two attacks that do low damage to help weaken an enemy unit as well as poison). They're pretty good stormtroopers on the cheap, but I can't imagine paying for them with my strategy.

[Radament]

Well beyond the obvious benefits of a loyal unit, I think the assasins don't really work well in most scenarios of HttT- many undead, many cave scenarios (bad defence), lancers and such make life hard for them. Occasionally you might find use in sneaking them around enemy forces and poison & weaken enemy leaders.

Generally I agree with peet that it's better to have a steady supply of lvl2 units than hardened lvl3. I usually don't recall more than 2-3 lvl3 units, depending on the enemy\map. Especially on higher difficulties and more difficult campaigns you need to watch your money, and you'll need fodder, so i'd recommend to recruit some lvl1 units, which you need as meatshields anyway, build up your backbone with lvl2's and buy specialty lvl3 units (like yummy silver mages etc.)

Btw it occured to me that i didn't replay many campaigns with the (relatively) new gold carryover system, so I'm not sure if for instance TRoW on "challenging" (!) will still have you broke & facing a red dragon.

[The_great_new_thing]

50% defense in caves is good, not bad. But yeah, I didn't recall my assassins/rogues/thieves here. And also, I don't think that 51 hp is less. In undead scenarios, the assasin is definitely useless, because undead are immune to poison and most of them are resistant to bladed attacks. But I definitely find poison useful, and in HttT you mainly fight loyalists, not undead. In the horse clan scenario I used thiefs to put a sort of ZoC net over my advanced troops, so that they don't die of the charge attacks. It worked really well, and i even got a rogue. Sure, assassins aren't all that useful in some campaigns, but they have their uses in HttT.

[HomerJ]

50% defense in caves is good, not bad. But yeah, I didn't recall my assassins/rogues/thieves here. And also, I don't think that 51 hp is less. In undead scenarios, the assasin is definitely useless, because undead are immune to poison and most of them are resistant to bladed attacks. But I definitely find poison useful, and in HttT you mainly fight loyalists, not undead. In the horse clan scenario I used thiefs to put a sort of ZoC net over my advanced troops, so that they don't die of the charge attacks. It worked really well, and i even got a rogue. Sure, assassins aren't all that useful in some campaigns, but they have their uses in HttT.

HttT - Thieves Challenge

Sorry, couldn't resist to shamelessly advertise my own post.

Again, thieves are not so useless against skellies as one might think, I can only encourage you to try it yourself. Ok, there will be losses, but the good evasion usually makes the thief survive one attack. They level quickly, its easy to retreat them if they already got a kill, fresh recruited they make great fodder, which sometimes can bind multiple enemies and still survive the turn (on easily found 70% terrain).


Greetz
HomerJ

[dvormann]

in HttT I rarely recall those thieves. Dwarven Doors is a scenario where I find them particularly useful. They help protect my flanks or rear. If they get into a tight spot they skirmish their way to safety.

However I do not recruit thieves in that campaign. The four loyal units have to suffice.

I also like using two assassins together. Capture villages where the main battle is not. The AI will send a unit or two to recapture those villages. Two assassins backstab everything to death.

[Elvish_Pillager]

Getting more level 3 units isn't particularly useful if you already have more than you'll ever recall. If you don't recall an excessive amount of level 3 units, they should rarely be the ones that die.

After I get a lot of L3s, I've taken to feeding most of the experience to my leaders/companions/auto-recalled units (and to a lesser extent, to any loyal units that I often use.) You can sometimes get your leaders up to +15 HP over the course of a campaign, which might not seem huge numerically compared with their usually-around-60 base, but can be huge tactically.

[lostnumber]

I trend towards recalling more level 3's because I like the rpglike feeling of having a "Core" of 6 or so loyal units that I use every scenario.

But really I think its a matter of personal preference.