goblin portraits

[bera]

Hi,

I've been following the recent addition of portraits, and thank gods
someone made me notice goblin portraits were missing, which I took
as an opportunity to work on something as well. So here comes the linearts
for a goblin and an impaler as well as a rouser. I know there're some things I
need to be more careful about, like the face of the 'goblin' as well as the hands
in general.

I suppose I like working on details, though I'm aware this kind of makes them
look messy when they're scaled down. I'm hoping the colored versions to be less
messy however. And I guess it should be possible to crop them (crop out legs as
is the custom). Anyways, sooo, here they are

[JustinOperable]

I think you have some really interesting things going on with the costuming and calligraphy of the pieces, but the figure drawing really isn't there enough. There are a number of perspective problems and lack of cross contour and solid drawing in some areas make the direction of some limbs sort of flicker back and forth. Then again I'm a stickler for figure drawing. I hope you keep working at it.


Look up Andrew Loomis, George Bridgman and Glenn Vilppu

[Sgt. Groovy]

The characters are rich and engaging and you have great eye for detail. But at the same time, I'm afraid your style might be just a slightly too caricaturish to fit with the rather realistic style of the rest of the portraits. For example, even though the goblins are weak and pathetic, their arms shouldn't be quite that stick-like.

But there is certainly great potential there and I hope you'll stick around. Next time, it might be a good idea to make a rough sketch of the pose first without adding any details, so that the issues with anatomy and perspective can be dealt with better.

[JW]

I think they're great. I'm sure you can easily beef up the arms a little bit; no need to start from scratch. Next step is coloring!

[thespaceinvader]

You've got an engaging style and strong linework, but the anatomy is lacking significantly in places, particularly in terms of the rouser's side-view head and the already raised issue that the arms are tiny.

But a more important issue is that we've spent a long while sorting out what the anatomy and appearance of our orcs and goblins are going to be like (particularly in terms of faces) and anyone who does mainline portraits for them is going to need to fit in with those appearances.

The main thread is here http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=21647 but there are various other portrait sketches etc scattered around the forums. The important things are the animal-like muzzle, the design of the ears and the look of the facial hair.

[bera]

well, thanks for all the feed back, I was more like trying my hand actually, and your response surely matters.

spaceinvader: I looked at the thread regarding the anatomy of orcs, but honestly from what I saw, it didn't seem like a settled issue to me. That especially goes for the goblins - for example, are you sure they are supposed to have facial hair?

groovy: yeah, the limbs were indeed quite thin.

anyways, I'm posting a flat colored version of the impaler, consider it posted for the sake of corrections afore mentioned, aka the limbs.

note: the image looks quite dark compared to the original when posted, any reasons for that?

[Turuk]

note: the image looks quite dark compared to the original when posted, any reasons for that?

Just a matter of the forum doing that, if users click on your picture they can see the proper colors.

[thespaceinvader]

Yes, I'm sure that they're supposed to have facial hair =) And head hair, for that matter.

Note that some of the discussion has gone on on IRC and via PMs, it's not all directly codified there - and some of it is still simply the preference of the art dev team - we know what looks right and fits with our vision of Wesnoth. I apologise in advance for how vague that is, but this is a fairly organic process, adn it's not something we've exactly put into exact words as yet. Either doing that or simply doing the portraits are on the list, but it's a very long list...

I'll see how you make out on this portrait, but I may move this thread into the workshop depending on how it goes - don't take this as a slight on your skills, rather as evidence that we're picky swines with very demanding requirements. There are User-Made Content (UMC) makers out there who would kill for portraits of this sort of quality =)

Regarding the image itself (aside from the hair issues already mentioned) - the lines are clean, and the colour choices look reasonable. But the overall image is a touch bland - the pose you've chosen faces directly to camera, and that's a difficult one to make look lively and dynamic. And I'm not certain that the legs really point in the right direction - stand that way yourself, and you'll realise that your knees don't point out that much, nor do your legs bend that much, unless you have rickets =P

[kitty]

bera:
those are really nice sketches! welcome!

your linework looks especially strong. i like your costume designs and all the little detail you put into it.

the first two sketches are problematic because of the poses. they are very stiff and "in the box" (e.g. the arms having exact 45 degree angles) - that makes them look unnatural and slightly too comical for what we do for wesnoth.
the third goblin is much better in this regard, the pose works better. what needs more work is the anatomy of the arms, they look like mere meager tubes right now.

generally you don't need to draw the whole figure - they will be cropped waist up anyways. if you want to draw the whole figure nevertheless please keep the cropping in mind.

keep posting



---

thespacinvader:

no.
you and girgistian spent a lot of time and effort designing ideas for the wesnothian orcs. that's wonderful and you came up with a design i actually like very much. but just because you had this discussion and did this preliminary work does not mean that the look of the species is conclusively determined. it will be determined as soon as an orc in the new style is commited to mainline. that is not the case up to now.

if anybody suddenly comes up with an orc or goblin in a decent quality and style that fits the sprite etc. he will get mainlined (and will be the base for the ones following after him) regardless of your and girgistian's discussion.



and up to now we haven't moved stuff that the artist intends for mainline out of this forum because it looks like it could happen that it won't be up to par. so: please let this stay unless the artist tells you otherwise.

[bera]

hmm,

well, I'll likely work on a close shot from scratch, but I wanted to give a try coloring
this version of impaler, and here it is, which, of course, can be used in any UMC stuff if someone
feels so.

I better not delve into an argument about how things ought to look like, and I think I can see your
point space invader : On unit descriptions goblins are defined as weak orcs,
so in that sense they may genetically have facial hair - yet, this doesn't mean that they are fond of it,
or maybe it may have something to do with the society they live at, etc. Anyways, if you think you can make this
image useful somewhere, go ahead, I'd just be glad about it - meanwhile I'll try to come up with something
better thought.

[thespaceinvader]

Please don't argue with the art staff when we tell you what we, as a group, have decided about the appearances of the units. We've decided that orcs and goblins have facial and head hair. So they do. You're welcome to depict them without in UMC, but such depictions probably won't get into mainline.

You're welcome to try again, but my current considered opinion is that the style and quality of this piece doesn't quite reach the mainline standard.

[bera]

well spaceinvader, I'm not really arguing, and see I was working on one goblin with a stylish hair anyways

I'm just sending a preliminary lineart - he looks kinda innocent, my gf found him quite handsome too, but what I'm wondering is whether the anatomy would fit a goblin. At this stage I understand from the term goblin an orc which is sizeably less muscular and with some facial differences - mainly a big and thin nose or something like that.

[Ryorin]

His cheeks look like they are bulging outward because of the lines following the jaw-bone along the left side of his face. It doesn't look bad, just a bit comical.

I really like it though, a good clean design.

[doofus-01]

bera,

Be aware that parts can't be cropped off on the right side, so goboo.jpg's spear will be a problem.

[thespaceinvader]

INdeed - cropping on the right is a problem.

But he could face left, or you could simply extent the spear off til it finishes, as long as the final portrait isn't >500px wide.

The facial anatomy: his nose is very large. That's common in goblin depictions in other settings, but if our goblins are smaller versions of our orcs, then the noses anre going to be small and upturns in much the same way, with a slight muzzle effect. That's where you're going wrong here...