Why do people quit playing?

General feedback and discussion of the game.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Post Reply
Snorklecat
Posts: 8
Joined: June 1st, 2006, 11:44 am
Location: An American in Africa

Re: Why do people quit playing?

Post by Snorklecat »

So...about people quitting Wesnoth....

I have to confess that I have not played Wesnoth for a number of months, mostly because I've been completely sucked into Warcrack lately. *blush*
I guess that people just like a change every now and then- as simple as that.

But Wesnoth is a great game, and I love it no matter what gaming phases I'm going through. I recommend it to everyone I know...though I have to say the game brings out my aggressive side in a big way. :lol2:

In fact...just installed it on the Asus eee pC and it works surprisingly well.
Sombra
Posts: 273
Joined: August 11th, 2006, 6:38 pm

Re: Why do people quit playing?

Post by Sombra »

IMO its simply : nothing new to learn. Wesnoth is a fine but quite simple strategy game . The basics are learned real fast.

Afterwarsds its fine tunning your gameplay . But there is no room for big new innovative stratgies. Look at the strategy section : I cant see any "new" dicoveries , no new killerstrategies and counters discussed. Neither does it seem that the playing style of the exp Wesnothplayers differ to much.

In the end you skill of Wesnoth depends on your willingness to take "calculated risks" / finetune your troops layout etc.

So for me it gets kind of boring . Right now for playing Muliplayer is quite frustrating / to many players just quit and as you said many veterans are leaving the game too or playing less. For every 1 good game I have to play 3 other games where I ask myself if the AI is not more challenging.

I miss the oppotunity to develop my own playstaly . Unfortunately Wesnoth does not offer a wide strategic choice to win games at least this is my impression. Its like risk : its fun etc. but you can hardly compare it to game slike Chess or "Rignwar" .
AJM/FTL
Posts: 3
Joined: April 21st, 2008, 12:38 pm
Location: Munich

Re: Why do people quit playing?

Post by AJM/FTL »

There a players and there are players. For the first group we can assume that they just play for entertainment und short-term enjoyment. They will get on the next interesting thing as soon as they get the possibility. Nothing lost there. The second group are hardboiled player, they are in it for the kill. The want to improve their skill to perfection and mostly they see playing not only as mere entertainment but also use it to sharpen their real-life skills (analysis, deduction, planning, bluffing). For those players every game they decide wothy of their attention, got it for a long time. I am playing M.U.L.E. regularly with friends for nearly twenty years now. Pirates! ist probably the game I played the most, since 1987. Battle of Wesnoth made to my expanded group of "I like" games. The mixture of elements from Langrisser, Shining Force and Fire Emblem ist appealing. But there certain areas that need to be worked on. Like the often underestimated question of dimension. If BoW wants to simulate full-scale battles on tactical level then it needs more focus on troops and leadership relations. On the other hand if BoW wants to restrict itself to skirmish battle it needs more focus on character development and skills. From my point of view there is a vast potential for development of BoW in the Future. As long as this potential has not vanished, I will continue playing BoW.
Cum dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum
User avatar
Iris
Site Administrator
Posts: 6720
Joined: November 14th, 2006, 5:54 pm
Location: Chile
Contact:

Re: Why do people quit playing?

Post by Iris »

Sombra wrote:IMO its simply : nothing new to learn. Wesnoth is a fine but quite simple strategy game . The basics are learned real fast.
I have been playing Wesnoth since december 2005 and I'm still learning new strategies. And I still suck midly. :roll:
Author of the unofficial UtBS sequels Invasion from the Unknown and After the Storm (now available for Wesnoth 1.14.x and 1.15.4+).
Alpha
Posts: 33
Joined: June 14th, 2004, 3:17 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Why do people quit playing?

Post by Alpha »

To be honest, I don't know if you can group many people's various reasons for giving up on Wesnoth, simply because each person plays and interprets the game differently. When I was first introduced to Wesnoth I played the game frequently, often neglecting other aspects in my life that used to be important. After a while it became apparent that there were other more pressing aspects of my life and that Wesnoth was taking up too much time, and I guess that was the catalyst for my loss of interest in the game. Admittedly I'm still at school and I realised that this should probably take a bit of precedence over a game, however the same could be said for work or family or whatever other major factor in anyone's life.

4 years later and I've picked up the game again, despite the fact that I'm probably busier now than I was back then. I guess that shows that for me Wesnoth was really a phase type interest, and it wasn't until I reflected on the game for a while that I developed a longer-term interest in the game.

I'm probably ranting off a little here so I'll stop, but once again, I don't think it's really possible to define a couple of main reasons for quiting Wesnoth, as everyone is so different, and sees something different in the game to others.
Always remember you are unique, just like everyone else! :)
User avatar
JW
Posts: 5046
Joined: November 10th, 2005, 7:06 am
Location: Chicago-ish, Illinois

Re: Why do people quit playing?

Post by JW »

Sombra wrote:IMO its simply : nothing new to learn. Wesnoth is a fine but quite simple strategy game . The basics are learned real fast.

Afterwarsds its fine tunning your gameplay . But there is no room for big new innovative stratgies. Look at the strategy section : I cant see any "new" dicoveries , no new killerstrategies and counters discussed. Neither does it seem that the playing style of the exp Wesnothplayers differ to much.

In the end you skill of Wesnoth depends on your willingness to take "calculated risks" / finetune your troops layout etc.

So for me it gets kind of boring . Right now for playing Muliplayer is quite frustrating / to many players just quit and as you said many veterans are leaving the game too or playing less. For every 1 good game I have to play 3 other games where I ask myself if the AI is not more challenging.

I miss the oppotunity to develop my own playstaly . Unfortunately Wesnoth does not offer a wide strategic choice to win games at least this is my impression. Its like risk : its fun etc. but you can hardly compare it to game slike Chess or "Rignwar" .
I have to agree with this to a certain degree. I think I touched on this with my earlier post, but I can usually pick up strategies really quick. After writing about half of the HTP guide I stuck around to develop the EOM, but even that has not been able to keep me around lately.

I dunno....I got tired of playing 3 hour games that played out *relatively* similarly only with differences in factions, risk taking and luck. I mean, I guess there's not much more you could add, which is why I'm kinda burned out from this game. TBH though, that's happened to me with about every game I've ever played - counter-strike being the one exception. I played that game for 6 years and never got tired of it due to stats websites and the WC3 mod; then the WC3ft mod. There were lots of other mods, and I think that's what keeps a game breathing after years of gameplay: constant change. If you do the same thing too much it's boring.

The gameplay in Wesnoth only really took 1 major change while I played here: the change to arcane (which was a really good change).

*****Just to throw an idea out there, maybe Wesnoth 2 could be created with whole new factions and units. I know the art would be a pain in the ass, and new balancing would need to be done, but you could redo the damage type setup so it's original (read as different from mainline wesnoth): change damage to Physical, Holy, Shadow, Nature, Thermal, Whatever....do something different with it. Wesnoth is great, but it has its limitations. And actually, while we're at it, let's redo the combat system concerning the RNG so there is less [censored]: have a base damage with some random number applied after. Maybe don't even have multiple swings!

---yeah, it's not really "Wesnoth" at that point is it? It's an entirely different game. Well, I guess that's why I'm not playing Wesnoth anymore: I want to play a different game.
hiro hito
Posts: 201
Joined: November 23rd, 2006, 8:00 am

Re: Why do people quit playing?

Post by hiro hito »

Sombra wrote:IMO its simply : nothing new to learn. Wesnoth is a fine but quite simple strategy game . The basics are learned real fast.

Afterwarsds its fine tunning your gameplay . But there is no room for big new innovative stratgies. Look at the strategy section : I cant see any "new" dicoveries , no new killerstrategies and counters discussed. Neither does it seem that the playing style of the exp Wesnothplayers differ to much.

In the end you skill of Wesnoth depends on your willingness to take "calculated risks" / finetune your troops layout etc.

So for me it gets kind of boring . Right now for playing Muliplayer is quite frustrating / to many players just quit and as you said many veterans are leaving the game too or playing less. For every 1 good game I have to play 3 other games where I ask myself if the AI is not more challenging.

I miss the oppotunity to develop my own playstaly . Unfortunately Wesnoth does not offer a wide strategic choice to win games at least this is my impression. Its like risk : its fun etc. but you can hardly compare it to game slike Chess or "Rignwar" .

Your idea of a new fog of war was good by the way, but the thread was lock before we can say if it'a good or a bad idea.
JW wrote:****Just to throw an idea out there, maybe Wesnoth 2 could be created with whole new factions and units. I know the art would be a pain in the ass, and new balancing would need to be done, but you could redo the damage type setup so it's original (read as different from mainline wesnoth): change damage to Physical, Holy, Shadow, Nature, Thermal, Whatever....do something different with it.
There are so many era and factions... sigh.... while there are less and less good players or players who know default era, i think the game suffers of all this variety of game.... Each faction has to be learn to play them properly.... and there is a lot to do!!! Now see all the optional era and faction.... How can we play all this stuff properly and nicely... it's just impossible unless spending all our entire life in it! And we know that the game is funnier when all players know how to play one era....

Plus it's very hard to have a balancing game with all the faction/terrains. Even today, each (or almost) release have his balancing settings update....Even if many say that the game is balancing, it is still in work even if changes become minor..... so imagine all the work it can take for all the different eras....!
JW wrote:nd actually, while we're at it, let's redo the combat system concerning the RNG so there is less [censored]: have a base damage with some random number applied after. Maybe don't even have multiple swings!
I think the point is here... a better fighting system that make battle more based on strategy than luck!
Combinated with the Sombra's new fog of war, we could have a real alternative to the game!
I dont complain about RNG, but i still believe that between 2 players with same skill, RNG is still the one who makes one of them win!....

New fog of war can allow us to make different moves than usual.... and elaborate new strategy...
that way old players can have a new reason to NOT quit playing....?
"Of course His Majesty is a pacifist. When I told him that to initiate war was a mistake, he agreed.Thus, gradually, he began to lead toward war."-Emperor Shòwa (Enlightened Peace)'s chief cabinet secretary
User avatar
Doc Paterson
Drake Cartographer
Posts: 1973
Joined: February 21st, 2005, 9:37 pm
Location: Kazakh
Contact:

Re: Why do people quit playing?

Post by Doc Paterson »

hiro hito wrote:but i still believe that between 2 players with same skill, RNG is still the one who makes one of them win!
Great. Please post a replay where luck, and luck alone, causes you to lose.
I will not tell you my corner / where threads don't get locked because of mostly no reason /
because I don't want your hostile disease / to spread all over the world.
I prefer that corner to remain hidden /
without your noses.
-Nosebane, Sorcerer Supreme
Fosprey
Posts: 254
Joined: January 25th, 2008, 8:13 am

Re: Why do people quit playing?

Post by Fosprey »

Doc patterson, i think your request isn't valid. If luck alone would be the only factor that made you lose, it means you played perfectly, of course nobody will ever play perfect.
I think anyone would agree that poker and magic are intensive luck games, but if you requested a tournament or even a session where luck where the only fact that decided a negative result, it would be impossible, nobody plays perfect almost never or never, and even if he did it's impossible to probe since nobody actually knows with 100% certainity what's the perfect play.

I've been watching replays all the week , of the top 15 players on the ladder right now. I've seen them lose against inferior players, several times, and if you ask them why did they lose, you will find two kinds, players that say they could have played better, and those who said it was luck. The fact is that both afirmations are most of the times true. The question it's not if the better player, did play bad, but if the worst player, actually outplayed him.

To end, i've seen a lot of replays between those 15 players (i'm included) where the game was pretty close, and it all depended on a coin flip.

I will end with a game i watched tonight, before going to sleep.
Attachments
2p_-_The_Freelands-Auto-Save45.gz
It could have gone either way at the end, and it was pretty clear it was a coin flip. The chance the elvish scout would die in the 4 attack was almost 60%. it was left unscatched almost, and the leader fall very easy. if the scout would have fall, then the game would have gone to northerns, it went all the game to one fight decided by luck
(54.36 KiB) Downloaded 140 times
Last edited by Fosprey on April 26th, 2008, 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
hiro hito
Posts: 201
Joined: November 23rd, 2006, 8:00 am

Re: Why do people quit playing?

Post by hiro hito »

Fosprey has talked for me...

Many times you ask for replays when people talk about luck.
In many case a real bad playing it's the only reason for defeat... and your point of view is good.

But in my previous post, i spoke about 2 players with same skill... i precise now with 2 good players (or skill player)...
Do you see many matches between 2 top players? did you ever see Owlface against Gallifax? Or Leocrotta against Soliton? I almost never see them why?
When it happens it's a very long game with no ends cause players wait to see what happens or if the attack failed the game is already finish cause it's impossible to come back....
As Fosprey said no one knows the perfect moves (or maybe you Doc? but no offense if i tell you you're the only one)

But the fact is that luck has big part in this game, and in my opinion it's more a strategic game than every thing else... And sometimes strategy is screwed by luck!

And what is frustating is when you took risk and nothing good happens, then it's very hard to come back into the game... (against skill players, it's impossible). Maybe this new fog of war can be use and prepared a counter-attack could be easier or at least more difficult to see....

1-the first post of this thread speak about old players quit playing... They suppose to be good and skill (maybe not the best, but....) but they leave....
2-RNG thread comes again and again...
3-nice ideas like Sombra's one are rejected...

I am not really complaining, cause if i dont want to play no more, i wont play and that's it.
But if ladder wasnt here i think i already leave too... because i find that this game developpement (or maybe non-official developpement) keep us out of the real game subject: strategy.

all weird survival games, and all weird setting games makes old/skill player leaves. And new players learn nothing because of it.
All design/ forum/server/music/ect. developpement is really nice!... Except your work in finding good balancing faction/map, what is done for a better strategic system? I have the feeling that nothing is done no more for a better STRATEGYC game developpement.
I dont know if RNG system can be better or not, but sometime strategy is screwed by luck (because no one knows THE perfect move)... and except fighting less skill players, they are nothing we can do more... Cause we even dont know if our strategy is better than another one because luck factor can be so decisive.... (At least with this fog of war setting).

regards.
"Of course His Majesty is a pacifist. When I told him that to initiate war was a mistake, he agreed.Thus, gradually, he began to lead toward war."-Emperor Shòwa (Enlightened Peace)'s chief cabinet secretary
Fosprey
Posts: 254
Joined: January 25th, 2008, 8:13 am

Re: Why do people quit playing?

Post by Fosprey »

to help hiro hito argument i would like to show a two replays between very good players, to show what happens. I've talked about it in the multiplayer development thread "mirror are the ones more prone to stall"
Attachments
Silverhead_UvU_Savannah-Suvorov_draw.gz
(8.57 KiB) Downloaded 121 times
leocrotta_vs_13ismitch.gz
The game stall, and it ends defined by the RNG
(14.67 KiB) Downloaded 95 times
Dave
Founding Developer
Posts: 7071
Joined: August 17th, 2003, 5:07 am
Location: Seattle
Contact:

Re: Why do people quit playing?

Post by Dave »

hiro hito wrote:I dont complain about RNG, but i still believe that between 2 players with same skill, RNG is still the one who makes one of them win!....
I would say that between players of equal skill, whoever played better in the game will probably win. Players are always trying new strategies and tactics and one will cause them to prevail.

If two players happen to play at an equal level in a particular game, luck will probably determine who will win.

The same can be said of backgammon, and risk, and football, and cricket, and basketball, and poker, and heck, an argument could even be made for chess or go.

David
“At Gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck.” -- Ian Fleming
Noy
Inactive Developer
Posts: 1321
Joined: March 13th, 2005, 3:59 pm

Re: Why do people quit playing?

Post by Noy »

I disagree, as I stated in this thread the idea that two players of "equal skill" exist is an impossibility. Its a variation of saying "everybody thinks alike." Strategy is not a linear progression that operates on a zero sum basis.

I'm just going requote myself from before;
Noy wrote: There is no such thing, because top players have multiple tactical and operational strategies for each faction. They have personalities, and general behaviors which they articulate through their play. Confronted with the same situation players will often react completely differently, which may equally be the best response. Questions like, will ping try to take the mountain, or the village? Will DK test his luck for one more turn, or take his kills and prepare for the coming dusk? Will Hotmustid expose his leader in the forest for an attack an HI, or play it safe and send a archer. These are typical, critical questions we face every game, almost every turn, that we can never fully predict, only develop possible responses to.
I suspect having one foot in the past is the best way to understand the present.

Don Hewitt.
Derekkk
Posts: 64
Joined: April 25th, 2007, 5:43 pm

Re: Why do people quit playing?

Post by Derekkk »

After looking at what made Chess a great game, I think in wesnoth there is a lack of big variations between the fighting units, especially with the default era. Chess has explored almost all movement types within their ultra simple board. Maybe wesnoth can do the same? e.g. a unit that can only move in one direction per turn? This might not be doable with the current engine, but there are certainly many other areas where the capability exists yet hasn't been fully utilised. Why is hp range so small for the level 1s? e.g. We can have a 100hp lvl-1 unit which has 0% terrain defense.

Wesnoth's simple rules* were designed as such because at the start wesnoth was a single player game and the simple rules made the programming of a decent AI possible. But the simple rules certainly have their beauty and we can see from examples like chess and go that great games don't necessarily need complex rules. What we do need is to allow a varied gameplay within the rules.

The theoretical complexity of each wesnoth game (i.e. the number of choices that each player can choose from) is huge at the moment, even larger than Go, but many of the choices lead to the same or pretty similar results. I conjecture that having wildly different units would allow more differentiated choices.

I think one problem that the wesnoth community has at the moment is that no one is committed and brave enough to try something utterly different within the framework. (Bob_the_Mighty ones are quite outside.) Dave took the first step and got it basically right, but no one has taken the second step to improve the game yet further strategically, and so it has stuck.

Although I said that wesnoth has got a decent AI, when compared with Chess or Go AIs in the market, the wesnoth AI is clearly insufficient. People would go back to play chess once in a while because they can always find something new in the game, and it doesn't take them long for a game if they play against the AI. Without a challenging AI, wesnoth loses its strength in bringing back people who just want a quick game.

(To clarify, what I mean by the rules of wesnoth includes the use of terrain, ToD, the combat system, etc., but not the exact specifications of each unit, nor the exact layout of the maps)
Battle_Axe
Posts: 1
Joined: April 25th, 2008, 7:09 pm

Re: Why do people quit playing?

Post by Battle_Axe »

Why do people quit playing? For me the most important issues are:

a) Games take too much time. Even a "fast" Isar´s Cross game. There is not enough action - u have to wait too long before your opponent makes his moves. One BfW game normally at least takes as much time as 10 Blitz Chess games (I tested it).

b) As already mentioned in previous posts, the luck factor. It can be really frustrating. Today an enemy horseman charged my fish unit (full health) guarding a water village - two hits and my unit was gone. U can argue that the luck factor is not so important and in the long run the better player will win the game. Well normally that is the case but not always. Other games don´t have that luck factor. If I lose a chess game, it is ALWAYS because of my own mistakes. And not because my units can´t aim, my chess pieces have an accuracy of 100 %!

c) Not a big variety of strategies. Ok most games have that problem. But in a real time strategy game u can for example play a total rush, a slower rush, no rush, boom or u can raid the enemy economy and kill some workers. Maybe u can advance to the next age and create even stronger units. A good example for such a concept is Age of Empires II, a great game which I used to play a lot. Of course a variety is also possible in round based games (for example Civilisation, chess) but I think that there the number of strategies is limited. So BfW gets boring after a while - at least for me.

On the other hand battle for Wesnoth has a big plus: A really well balanced game! Great job guys. Nethertheless I still prefer chess :-). There the balancing is perfect, u don´t need a patch at all.
Post Reply