Translating images?
Moderator: Forum Moderators
Re: Translating images?
Agreed.you're no worse off than before (...) additional feature
Why do I feel less optimistic about this? But once the materials and guidelines are available, most of the work will be easier.Instead, when the implementation is approved, I intend to start bothering artists for assistance. (...) if we say pretty please
Re: Translating images?
Don't underestimate the work to get something like the main logo text rendered. I remember the development as quite a lot of work for Jetryl. But even if it "only" improves the maps, l10n will be better off for it.
WesCamp-i18n - Translations for User Campaigns:
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/WesCamp
Translators for all languages required: contact me. No geek skills required!
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/WesCamp
Translators for all languages required: contact me. No geek skills required!
-
- Translator
- Posts: 61
- Joined: February 5th, 2007, 4:17 pm
- Location: Brunswick, Germany
Re: Translating images?
*gulp*torangan wrote:Don't underestimate the work to get something like the main logo text rendered. I remember the development as quite a lot of work for Jetryl.
And the screenshots, the screenshots :)But even if it "only" improves the maps, l10n will be better off for it.
Hm, even if of limited assist, at least a conceptually rather clean possibility for some automation just came to my mind. It's about the partial overlay images. Right now, I've in mind that whoever edits the image marks the overlay cut by hand, but -- could it be possible to make an automatic diff instead? So that both there is no need for manual cuts, and the overlays get to be of minimal size.tsr wrote:I have some experience with ImageMagick and can offer some help
In fact, while manual cuts are probably limited to natural images for that, i.e. maps, an auto-diff could be applied to any image, including in-game screenshots (the only place where overlays are not possible is for HTML doc shots). This would reduce those estimated ~700 kB/language even further.
Chusslove Illich (Часлав Илић)
-
- Translator
- Posts: 61
- Joined: February 5th, 2007, 4:17 pm
- Location: Brunswick, Germany
Re: Translating images?
As it stands now, is there a conclusive sway? This is the way I see the current state of deliberation:
When the conceptual elements would be judged acceptable for try-out by the "red-named" folks :) I would move to inquire in Coder's Corner about the validity of the patch itself.
- means of specifying and acquring localized images at runtime -- automatic by l10n/ subdir system, smallish patch
- large size of image data, necessity to split packages -- probably eliminated, through use of map overlays
- non-discovery and use of outdated localized images -- hopefully eliminated, but the tracker script is not proven in practice
- teams' capability of producing localized images -- assits to be examined with artists, some automatic rendering ideas floating
When the conceptual elements would be judged acceptable for try-out by the "red-named" folks :) I would move to inquire in Coder's Corner about the validity of the patch itself.
Chusslove Illich (Часлав Илић)
Re: Translating images?
You've got my support for the concept and I guess a well done patch will go through. I just don't expect to many people supplying localized overlays so the size issue won't appear for some time.
WesCamp-i18n - Translations for User Campaigns:
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/WesCamp
Translators for all languages required: contact me. No geek skills required!
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/WesCamp
Translators for all languages required: contact me. No geek skills required!
Re: Translating images?
I'm not sure that it`s a good idea for thousands of Wesnoth players to download extra ten mb each, for something even one of them hardly needs.
Re: Translating images?
Translations are already a significant chunk of the download size. I guess it'll go as for other projects. Once the size of translations reaches a critical point a packager will start to put them into seperate packages. Then you'll only have to download what you need. But before this goes off topic even more: the official distribution is the source package. Binary packages are created by certain volunteers and only hosted by the Wesnoth team. If you want different packages, do NOT ask the Wesnoth team. Ask the packagers.
WesCamp-i18n - Translations for User Campaigns:
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/WesCamp
Translators for all languages required: contact me. No geek skills required!
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/WesCamp
Translators for all languages required: contact me. No geek skills required!
Re: Translating images?
If you compare to our music, it's the size of one or two song, nothing more...mihoshi wrote:I'm not sure that it`s a good idea for thousands of Wesnoth players to download extra ten mb each, for something even one of them hardly needs.
There isn't many places where this would be used so it would not result in a very big size increase compared the the whole package.
IMHO the main issue is to define how this would work if we want something flexible enough.
"Ooh, man, my mage had a 30% chance to miss, but he still managed to hit! Awesome!" -- xtifr
-
- Translator
- Posts: 61
- Joined: February 5th, 2007, 4:17 pm
- Location: Brunswick, Germany
Re: Translating images?
Out of the four points I summarized above, you mean flexible with respect to the last point (how to produce localized images), or perhaps you also see something "rigid" with the other three points? (Or we forgot an issue to take into account...)Noyga wrote:IMHO the main issue is to define how this would work if we want something flexible enough.
Most importantly, does the technical implementation itself merit more flexibility, or you'd say I could proceed with presenting the patch?
Chusslove Illich (Часлав Илић)
Re: Translating images?
Yeah, but people listen to the songs. If the download included two 5MB .ogg files that were empty, I would be rather irritated.Noyga wrote:If you compare to our music, it's the size of one or two song, nothing more...
For I am Turin Turambar - Master of Doom, by doom mastered. On permanent Wesbreak. Will not respond to private messages. Sorry!
And I hate stupid people.
The World of Orbivm
And I hate stupid people.
The World of Orbivm
-
- Translator
- Posts: 61
- Joined: February 5th, 2007, 4:17 pm
- Location: Brunswick, Germany
Re: Translating images?
For the record, there are presently 17 packed megs of, by the same criteria, empty text files, which expand to 47 megs of empty binaries when installed :)
Chusslove Illich (Часлав Илић)
Re: Translating images?
Stop worrying about size, that's a simple packaging issue.
WesCamp-i18n - Translations for User Campaigns:
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/WesCamp
Translators for all languages required: contact me. No geek skills required!
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/WesCamp
Translators for all languages required: contact me. No geek skills required!
-
- Translator
- Posts: 61
- Joined: February 5th, 2007, 4:17 pm
- Location: Brunswick, Germany
Re: Translating images?
Another go-ahead from persian-reds? Ivanovic, Noyga?
Chusslove Illich (Часлав Илић)
Re: Translating images?
Ignore size as a real problem.
The main aim should be to make it reasonably easy to use even for translators that are not graphics artists. I have no idea if we can eventually automatically create the images, so for now we got to go the "by hand" method. What I would propose to try:
Just go to replace complete images.
This is rather simple in the ingame help where we just have to replace screenshots. For the manual it is a little more difficult, we have to check what we have to do to have the images "translatable", but should be reasonably possible. The main problem are all those fancy images with "embedded" text like eg maps (this is the only place the ATM comes to my mind). Somehow we should try to find a way to split the images into base image and label and have those single labels be put on the map. Those can then be "marked translatable" so that the single labels can easily be replaced by other images.
This will probably require to redo many of the maps we currently have like it was done for trow. Some of the stuff needed for it (and for creating those overlays, at least I think so) are in our svn rep under branches/resources/cartography-tools/ .
And with this back to the size stuff:
All this would be about is some small subsection of a whole screenshot and stuff like map labels. Those will *not* take too much space, so it is no real issue in my eyes at all.
The main aim should be to make it reasonably easy to use even for translators that are not graphics artists. I have no idea if we can eventually automatically create the images, so for now we got to go the "by hand" method. What I would propose to try:
Just go to replace complete images.
This is rather simple in the ingame help where we just have to replace screenshots. For the manual it is a little more difficult, we have to check what we have to do to have the images "translatable", but should be reasonably possible. The main problem are all those fancy images with "embedded" text like eg maps (this is the only place the ATM comes to my mind). Somehow we should try to find a way to split the images into base image and label and have those single labels be put on the map. Those can then be "marked translatable" so that the single labels can easily be replaced by other images.
This will probably require to redo many of the maps we currently have like it was done for trow. Some of the stuff needed for it (and for creating those overlays, at least I think so) are in our svn rep under branches/resources/cartography-tools/ .
And with this back to the size stuff:
All this would be about is some small subsection of a whole screenshot and stuff like map labels. Those will *not* take too much space, so it is no real issue in my eyes at all.
-
- Translator
- Posts: 61
- Joined: February 5th, 2007, 4:17 pm
- Location: Brunswick, Germany
Re: Translating images?
Even if size is not a real problem, there's basically no reason not to use the overlays as I proposed. Once the complete image is ready (one way or the other) to make an overlay out of it is trivial, even if manual. And it's also conceptually clearly possible to do automatically -- just haven't found a tool yet :) (perhaps time for me to look into Gimp scripting...)ivanovic wrote:Ignore size as a real problem.
[...]
[...] What I would propose to try:
Just go to replace complete images.
At any rate, overlays are an "orthogonal" feature in the patch I proposed. Overlay is procured as a fallback, a secondary try if the complete image is not present. So if all images are complete, no problem there.
Right. I estimate it will take me 15-30 minutes to write a script which modifies the generated doc HTMLs so as to point to localized images. Other than this script, if the l10n-subdir system is used as for all other images, no extra infrastructure will be necessary.[...] For the manual it is a little more difficult, we have to check what we have to do to have the images "translatable", but should be reasonably possible. [...]
I'll reiterate that I personally don't believe in auto-overlays, in the following sense: they are a compromise with art. The artist may be forced to do what he wouldn't do otherwise, for the sake of localization only; e.g. I'd find it rather unlooky if all text on the main map of Wesnoth would be superimposed like in TRoW.The main problem are all those fancy images with "embedded" text [...] "marked translatable" so that the single labels can easily be replaced by other images.
This will probably require to redo many of the maps we currently have like it was done for trow. [...]
Instead...
Way to go! That was one thing I meant to pester artists with; after looking at this data, now I only need to additionally ask how to produce the main-menu look out of the clear-look map, but I hope that's just applying few effects.[...] Some of the stuff needed for it (and for creating those overlays, at least I think so) are in our svn rep under branches/resources/cartography-tools/ .
So, what I intend to do is to "normalize" the main map's source image, i.e. to put it in a form best prepared for manual l10n, without all the non-l10n necessary elements that it has now. Then, describe the steps in Gimp to modify the elements, to make expected small adjustments, and prepare the final image. And so for other "types" of images. All this perhaps best on one wiki page, and we also keep one sticky thread for discussion.
* * *
But, to go there, first we need to commit some code, which would be my present focal point :)
And it seems to me that the presented l10n-subdir system on the code side, plus the tracking script to keep them in sync, is appropriate regardless of how the localized images are actually produced (drawn manually, complete or in overlays, static autorendering, dynamic overlays like in TRoW...)
Chusslove Illich (Часлав Илић)