Level 0s for every Level 1 - Humans

[Ken_Oh]

I think you underestimate the orcs. The trolls would (mostly) be of the 'he bigger and stronger' level, but i think the orcs would have a much more organised and probably martial-skill-based heirarchy. Look at SotBE. The orcs aren't stupid, they're just direct.

Ya, you're right. I was kind of going too far with the hyperbole. Not to say that cunning isn't of value in Orc society, but raw physical attributes are very important.

On that note, I think Trolls are definitely ones that don't need a lvl 0, unless we wanted to put in a Troll Newborn unit.

[Aethaeryn]

I think you underestimate the orcs. The trolls would (mostly) be of the 'he bigger and stronger' level, but i think the orcs would have a much more organised and probably martial-skill-based heirarchy. Look at SotBE. The orcs aren't stupid, they're just direct.

Ya, you're right. I was kind of going too far with the hyperbole. Not to say that cunning isn't of value in Orc society, but raw physical attributes are very important.

On that note, I think Trolls are definitely ones that don't need a lvl 0, unless we wanted to put in a Troll Newborn unit.

Troll Whelps are the young trolls, they can't even walk upright yet, but they're so purely strong they can already fight humans.

[Ken_Oh]

That's what I mean. A lvl 0 Troll would likely have to be no more than days old, so I don't think we need to bother with that.

[Aethaeryn]

So we need in addition to what you have planned:

• Drake Hatchling (I think one is in Flight to Freedom)
• a Saurian (Hatchling?)
• a lvl 0 dwarf (I'm not sure about gryphon rider though)
• a lvl 0 merman and mermaid
• a lvl 0 naga
• lvl 0 elves (I like the male/female separation like NotUD proposed so the males could go fighter/archer and the females archer/shaman, though this leaves out scout)
• Wose Sapling (from TroW)

This would cover all of the default MP units except Undead, which makes sense as they are raised from the dead, bats (which have lvl 0s), and trolls (which we discussed don't need one). This makes orcs and possibly elves the last major tree of lvl 0s. The simpler we make the trees the better, imo.

In terms of monsters, it's harder. Young ogre as a lvl 1 makes me think that there should be no other ogres. Though before you do complicated trees for human females, I'd prefer to see some for monsters at least. For example:

• a lvl 0 wolf cub
• a lvl 3 young yeti
• a lvl 0 small scorpion
• a lvl 4 young dragon?
• perhaps an entire spider tree from the lvl 0 spider hatchling in Ooze Mini-Campaign to the current lvl 3 giant spider

I'm sure these monsters could have wide use, perhaps wider than the actual factional NPC lower-lvls as you can now have advancements with monsters.

You've already done the hardest part, however, because you only have to make about 7 for the rest of the non-human and non-orc factions and 7 more for monsters would cover the rest of mainline.

One small problem with the "Noble Youth" unit is that iirc Noble Youth is the classification of the lvl 0 hero when you play TRoW on Hard.

Good luck, I'll help where I can (but I'm not that good at art and that's probably the only help you need) and I personally think these lvl 0s should be mainlined for 1.5.x as it fills the only major gap in the unit trees.

[Ken_Oh]

Crap, you're right about Noble Youth. That sucks because the Youth ones were great names for them. I'd rather not, but we can always call it Noble Youth and just have a different ID (like RPG_Noble Youth), but that's not optimal.

I've been thinking about Dwarves a little. I think they should have Miners and Smiths somehow. For them and Elves, the mounted versions are a concern. I guess they should have "Tamer" equivalents rather than coming straight from regular units?

Heh, while, as you said, most of the planning is done, the sprites aren't close to being done. They guys all need to be animated with at least 1 sprite for each attack and one defense animation. Really, with that much, I can move on to what I was going to do with this and keep the rest as an ongoing project (getting the Orcs done soon will be nice though).

[Blarumyrran]

a lvl 0 wolf cub

awww... what will it do, lick you to death?

[Vendanna]

awww... what will it do, lick you to death?

Charm the unit so it defends the puppy against predators

[Eternal]

Young ogre as a lvl 1 makes me think that there should be no other ogres

What about the level 3 ogre?

[Ken_Oh]

Cool, but we're here to work in the opposite direction.

[Aethaeryn]

Here is a proposed tree for all the units on the mainline unit tree that haven't been covered yet in the orc or human trees. The elf tree definitely needs more flavorable names.

Code: Select all

Lvl 0s with a * already exist somewhere. Lvl 0s with ? need a better name. Each tree ends on the first unit in the line that already exists.

DRAKES AND SAURIANS
                     /---> Drake Burner
                    /
                   / /---> Drake Clasher
 Drake Hatchling* ---                  
                   \ \---> Drake Fighter
                    \
                     \---> Drake Glider
 
 Saurian Hatchling? -----> Saurian Skirmisher
                     \     
                      \--> Saurian Augur 
 
ELVES AND WOSES
 
 Male Elf?---------------> Elvish Fighter
               \
                ---------> Elvish Archer
               /
 Female Elf? ------------> Elvish Shaman

 Elvish Tamer? ----------> Elvish Scout

 Elvish Noble -----------> Elvish Baron? ---------> Elvish Lord

 Wose Sapling* ----------> Wose

MERMEN AND NAGA
 Merman -----------------> Merman Fighter
         \
          \--------------> Merman Hunter

 Mermaid ----------------> Mermaid Initiate

 Naga -------------------> Naga Fighter

SMALL MONSTERS (Proposed)
                           Young Gryphon ---------> Gryphon

 Small Scorpion? --------> Giant Scorpion

 Wolf Cub ---------------> Wolf

 Spider Hatchling* ------> Young Spider? ---------> Spider? ---------------> Giant Spider

After this, the only units left out are campaign-and-era-specific units and: Vampire Bat, some monsters (especially the high-lvl ones), Young Ogre, Troll Whelp, the Undead, and all the Dwarves. I'm not sure if I can think of a creative dwarf tree that incorporates the miner from SoF and the Analyst from THoT.

The Drake Hatchling in Flight to Freedom is actually its own unit tree that branches off into its own unit, and that unit was removed from Drakes many years ago. I don't think that the Drake Slave is worth including, but I like the idea of a common lvl 0 for all lvl 1 drakes. The hatchling image is in Northern Rebirth but I cannot find its stats.

[Aethaeryn]

After looking through the campaign files and unit trees, here's my proposal for the Dwarves:

Code: Select all

DWARVES
 Dwarvish Brawler -------> Dwarvish Fighter
                   \
                    \----> Dwarvish Ulfserker
  
 Dwarvish Watchman ------> Dwarvish Guardsman
 
 Dwarvish Craftsman -----> Dwarvish Thunderer
                     \
                      \--> Dwarvish Smith --------> Dwarvish Runesmith*

 Dwarvish Scholar? ------> Dwarvish Witness
 
 Dwarvish Worker --------> Dwarvish Miner

*Runesmith, Runemaster, then Arcanister like in EE or Sceptre of Fire.

[Ken_Oh]

Looks good, all except for Dwarves. I've got a problem with Miner being a lvl 1 unit. Non-military units shouldn't be more than lvl 0 (unless they are naturally good at fighting, like Troll Whelp, or a wild animal who survives by fighting).

If you look, you'll notice how the Miner in SoF is actually a good deal weaker than a human Peasant, all except for that the Miner has ZoC. I realize there's a good reason for this in SoF, but I don't think we're going to want to give Dwarvish peasant equivalents lvl 1.

Also, I'm not 100% behind 1 type of hatchling for every type of Drake, as there's a huge difference between the Drake Clasher and Drake Glider. There are a couple ways, I see, to divide Drakes. There are ones with 5 or less moves and those above that. Or, there are Drakes who cannot fly or breath fire (the Clasher line) and then there are the rest.

[Aethaeryn]

Looks good, all except for Dwarves. I've got a problem with Miner being a lvl 1 unit. Non-military units shouldn't be more than lvl 0 (unless they are naturally good at fighting, like Troll Whelp, or a wild animal who survives by fighting).

If you look, you'll notice how the Miner in SoF is actually a good deal weaker than a human Peasant, all except for that the Miner has ZoC. I realize there's a good reason for this in SoF, but I don't think we're going to want to give Dwarvish peasant equivalents lvl 1.

Oh, sorry. I was working under the assumption that the miners were already a lvl 1 unit. It took me a while so I didn't spend much time by the time I got to the miner. Remove the worker, then, or have the worker be a lvl 0 that promotes into a lvl 0. I'm not sure I want to have the miner become a warrior because the miner isn't a fighter, and I don't think dwarves conscript people into an army like humans.

Also, I'm not 100% behind 1 type of hatchling for every type of Drake, as there's a huge difference between the Drake Clasher and Drake Glider. There are a couple ways, I see, to divide Drakes. There are ones with 5 or less moves and those above that. Or, there are Drakes who cannot fly or breath fire (the Clasher line) and then there are the rest.

Well, I gave the drake tree some thought and I think that at the time they are a hatchling they would not have been distinguished yet. For example, they don't know about their flight or not, or what to specialize in yet. After some combat they can specialize based on their skills. For example, a burner is better at fire than flying, and a clasher is basically one who can do neither and so specializes in weaponry to kill other drakes. Basically, a hatcling is a weak flightless and weaponless drake who cannot yet burn and the lvl 1 is the mature drake.

If they had to be separate, I would separate the clasher and have the hatchling have a weak fire ranged and a rather weak flight, but I still wouldn't make a distinction between a fighter (a drake who's decent at fire, flight, and weaponry), a glider (a drake who's great at flying at the expense of weaponry), and a burner (a drake who's great at fire, and decent at melee) because at the point of a hatchling they wouldn't know what part of their talents to focus on for a career. Drakes can really do a lot of things by their nature that most units cannot, including flying and breathing fire.

[Aethaeryn]

After looking at the hatchling and realizing it is very weak and a big leap to turn into a full-grown drake, and also thinking over with what you said, this might be a better drake tree:

Code: Select all

DRAKES AND SAURIANS
 Lvl 0                    Lvl 0                     Lvl 1

                                          /-------> Drake Burner
                                         /
 Drake Hatchling* ------> Young Drake? -----------> Drake Fighter
                   \                     \
                    \                     \-------> Drake Glider
                     \
                      \-> Flightless Drake?-------> Drake Clasher

                          Young Saurian? ---------> Saurian Skirmisher
                                              \     
                                               \--> Saurian Augur

This thus makes the hatchling a kind of "youth" unit.

The Hatchling stats in Flight to Freedom:
HP: 20
Movement Type: drakefoot
Movement: 5
Experience: 19
Cost: 7
Attack: 6-2 blade (claws)

Though oddly enough it has a neutral alignment and advances into a line of drake slave/worker units. This is thus the only part of the stats I think you should keep, even the concept of the unit by advancement and description is a bit odd (drakes using their children for cheap walls and then enslaving them if they get enough combat experience?).

The biggest challenge would probably to be to make two transition-sized lvl 0 drakes.

[Lizard]

One lv. 0 saurian...