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Velensk
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Post by Velensk »

Grand Marshal Aditya wrote:I like the idea to make them permanently fearless...That would be a great balancer.
I think that if you give them fearless, that definatly justify Increasing their cost. The factions I find them best against are chaotic.

I'd rather see their price dropped by on than any of the other changes proposed.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."
grrr
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Post by grrr »

Sigh, no one seems to like the idea to remove the HI. Obviously not too many dislike them as much as I do then. Let me explain why I have my problems with the HI:

- it is a "niche unit" .... oh really? what's not a niche unit in the loy faction? spears? bows? Having a faction with 4 so called niche units (or "specialists" - fencer, HI, mage, horseman) makes misrecruiting a major loy problem in random match-ups. Actually, you could say mermen are specialists too, but at least it's only 14g.

- most ranged stuff is pierce. 40% to pierce might help for a while, but if you do the math the pike and jav both have a much better survivability in that area. My HIs often get ranged to death by normal pierce units. It might take 2 rounds, but the low def and low speed of the HI makes 40% to pierce look stronger than it really is. 60% pierce resist is a show stopper (see wose), but for 40%, I often see myself ranging a HI with loy bow + TOD + leadership, then killing with HI (of course, i prefer the mage to counter HI, but sometimes you don't want to risk a mage being exposed to the frontline). Try it out yourself if you don't believe me how fast a HI actually dies to pierce + impact. Rebel archer + wose as counter is also left as an exercise for the reader.

So for me, I have a 19g unit that has good impact melee and is good vs. blade, nothing else on the pro side. But a long list of negative stuff you have to implement in your strategy

Ok, I am bit sorry for ranting. To me, the HI simply looks like a misconcept carried over from the pre-drakes era of Wesnoth =) The fact that all balancing changes to the HI were negative since then actually supports my view. Less units is good sometimes, really!

Oh well, I modified my loys to bring the fun back to them (read: less misrecruiting). They lost the HI and now my cav, for 18g has a nice 7-2 impact weapon. Yeah I know - such a change will never make it into default era. But it works for me. I killed an awfully narrow niche unit and made the cav a better default recruit. Well, if my change gets at least some positive attention here, I might make the default+newloy era available for download?
Velensk
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Post by Velensk »

50% vs peice I thought. Accualy the heavy infantry isn't supposed to be a niche unit, it is supposed to be a heavy, and very slow tank. It has become a niche unit due to it's weaknesses. Heavy infantry accualy could do well againt most archers even if several gang up on them, except that not all archers have olny peirce, any archer with fire or cold can get right through that armor.

By the way mage isn't a niche unit, it requires support naturualy, but it is usefull in all match-ups except drake (and in drake if they mass saurians it might not be bad).
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."
name
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Post by name »

Velensk wrote:I'd rather see their price dropped by on than any of the other changes proposed.
What is wrong with allowing HI to move 1 tile over mountains? What would this imbalance?
Clonkinator
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Post by Clonkinator »

Removing the HI from the game would probably quite annoy the guys who made their art, as well as quite a lot of people who actually like them (such as me)...
Also, all you need to do with the HI is use it carefully. It may look like a tank at first, but unless it gets strong/resilient, it really isn't. I for one use it to kill off units that are vulnerable to impact, and to protect my other units from enemies with blade/pierce weapons. Sending out HIs lonely is a very bad idea. Try to use them together with other units, even if it isn't all that easy to keep them together. If you use them well they will reward you.
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zookeeper
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Post by zookeeper »

Clonkinator wrote:Removing the HI from the game would probably quite annoy the guys who made their art, as well as quite a lot of people who actually like them (such as me)...
No one is proposing removing the HI from the game. What is proposed is removing the HI from the default era loyalist faction.
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Noyga
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Post by Noyga »

Cold Steel wrote:
Velensk wrote:I'd rather see their price dropped by on than any of the other changes proposed.
What is wrong with allowing HI to move 1 tile over mountains? What would this imbalance?
It is as right as allowing the spearmen 1 tile over deep water.
"Ooh, man, my mage had a 30% chance to miss, but he still managed to hit! Awesome!" ;) -- xtifr
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TL
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Post by TL »

grrr wrote:- it is a "niche unit" .... oh really? what's not a niche unit in the loy faction? spears? bows? Having a faction with 4 so called niche units (or "specialists" - fencer, HI, mage, horseman) makes misrecruiting a major loy problem in random match-ups. Actually, you could say mermen are specialists too, but at least it's only 14g.
Fencer is a specialist, but is still useful vs. all factions (knalgans to a slightly lesser degree sometimes). Horseman is difficult and risky to use, but usable in all faction match-ups. Mage is hugely important for any match-up except vs. drakes, where it is still fairly handy vs. saurians. Heavy infantry is decent in any match except drakes where it's just deadweight--but then you probably shouldn't be recruiting HI first turn anyhow since such a low move unit may jeopardize your village grabbing.
grrr wrote:- most ranged stuff is pierce. 40% to pierce might help for a while, but if you do the math the pike and jav both have a much better survivability in that area. My HIs often get ranged to death by normal pierce units. It might take 2 rounds, but the low def and low speed of the HI makes 40% to pierce look stronger than it really is. 60% pierce resist is a show stopper (see wose), but for 40%, I often see myself ranging a HI with loy bow + TOD + leadership, then killing with HI (of course, i prefer the mage to counter HI, but sometimes you don't want to risk a mage being exposed to the frontline). Try it out yourself if you don't believe me how fast a HI actually dies to pierce + impact. Rebel archer + wose as counter is also left as an exercise for the reader.
Firstly, it's kind of a duh that level 1 heavy infantry has less survivability than level 2 units against most attacks. Secondly, HI still generally has better-than-average survivability against pierce and impact. A bowman with good TOD and leadership is still hitting for only 5-3 against 40% pierce, instead of 9-3 against a unit with no resists. Three bowmen ganging up on HI have to hit with 8 out of 9 attacks to kill a full health HI under ideal conditions. Even on 30% terrain that's quite a slim chance for such a massive investment. Meanwhile, those same 3 bowmen can kill the average spearman in 4 shots, which they've got a decent chance of getting even if the spearman is on a village; if he's not, then there's a good chance they won't even need to take the 3rd attack to kill him.

HI is not invincible, but it out-tanks any other unit in the loyalist arsenal. Anything that would kill an HI is going to kill your other units even faster and better. In a battle of attrition HI will lose to just about anything due to its high cost. But when you absolutely, positively need to hold a certain hex, HI is usually your best bet. Plus, HI has deterrent value; just having HI sitting out there can put pressure on the enemy's recruitment pattern, which you can exploit with your other units.
grrr wrote:- Oh well, I modified my loys to bring the fun back to them (read: less misrecruiting). They lost the HI and now my cav, for 18g has a nice 7-2 impact weapon. Yeah I know - such a change will never make it into default era. But it works for me. I killed an awfully narrow niche unit and made the cav a better default recruit. Well, if my change gets at least some positive attention here, I might make the default+newloy era available for download?
I don't think cavalry really needs the improvement (and in fact is hurt in most cases by the increased cost). The only case where cavalry recruits are really hurting is loyalist vs. loyalist, and adding impact is not going to do much there if HI's are out of the picture. Yes, cavalry is shaky vs. rebels but it's an excellent wose deterrent and can hold elf fighters pretty well. Cavalry is already decent vs. undead since undead have very limited pierce attacks; with 20% cold resist, 30% blade resist, and 40% impact resist cavalry is an excellent mobile defense. Subpar offense, but they do decently vs. adepts and can do non-negligible damage to skeletons/archers. If they recruit skeleton archers to counter your cav, so what? The more archers they have to recruit, the fewer skeletons and dark adepts you're facing, and those are what you really have to worry about.
whatnoth
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Post by whatnoth »

Noyga wrote:
Cold Steel wrote: What is wrong with allowing HI to move 1 tile over mountains? What would this imbalance?
It is as right as allowing the spearmen 1 tile over deep water.
virtually all land units can move over mountains, and the ones that can have excellent defense there. only swimmers and fliers can move over deep water. youre comparing allowing a land unit to do what almost any other land unit can do to allowing a land unit to do what no other land unit can do. not really comparable at all.

i missed the part, by the way, where things needed to be "realistic" to achieve game balance. even nagas can move over mountains, but a human in armor cant? ridiculous.
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JW
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Post by JW »

I basically use Cavalry instead of HI. Let me show you why:


Cavalry v. HI

38hp v. 38hp
8 moves v. 4 moves
28xp v. 28xp
6-3 blade ( 18 ) v. 11-2 impact ( 22 )

Blade: 30% v. 50%
Pierce: -20% v. 40%
Impact: 40% v. 10%
Cold: 20% v. -10%
Fire: 0% v. -10%
Arcane: 20% v. 20%

Grass: 40% v. 30%
Village: 40% v. 40%
Forest: 30% v. 40%
Hills: 40% v. 40%


So, for 2 less gold you get 4 more moves, 10% better grassland defense, 10% worse forest D, and 4 less damage that is blade, not impact.

Resistancy differences: Cavalry has
20% worse blade
60% worse pierce

30% better impact
30% better cold
10% better fire

0% difference in arcane.


So, unless your opponent has some decent piercing damage, Cavalry are easily the superior unit, even though they deal less damage. Even if they do have pierce, the Cavalry can outrun it. The biggest difference to me is the 8 v. 4 moves. I value mobility on the field to determine when battles happen, so the HI to me is really difficult to use. Unless fighting loyalists, or a bunch of skeletons, I think the Cavalry is just a more useful unit. In those situations a Mage can kill what you need just as well, and Mages are useful in other situations as well. Instead of 2 HI I'd usually rather get 1 cavalry, 1 mage.
nebula955
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Post by nebula955 »

TL wrote: Firstly, it's kind of a duh that level 1 heavy infantry has less survivability than level 2 units against most attacks. Secondly, HI still generally has better-than-average survivability against pierce and impact. A bowman with good TOD and leadership is still hitting for only 5-3 against 40% pierce, instead of 9-3 against a unit with no resists. Three bowmen ganging up on HI have to hit with 8 out of 9 attacks to kill a full health HI under ideal conditions. Even on 30% terrain that's quite a slim chance for such a massive investment. Meanwhile, those same 3 bowmen can kill the average spearman in 4 shots, which they've got a decent chance of getting even if the spearman is on a village; if he's not, then there's a good chance they won't even need to take the 3rd attack to kill him.
compare the pike to the shock trooper and you'll find the same results
and hitting 1/3 for 9 damage is worse than hitting 2/3 for 5 ea so maybe that shock trooper is a better target....and if i have 3 slots, a mage'll take one of those and the hi is then dead.
and consider this: a spear vs a hi on grass day: per ev spear does 15*70%=10.5 damage, the hi does: 28*.5= 14 damage. the hi isnt such a good attacker...

TL wrote: HI is not invincible, but it out-tanks any other unit in the loyalist arsenal. Anything that would kill an HI is going to kill your other units even faster and better. In a battle of attrition HI will lose to just about anything due to its high cost. But when you absolutely, positively need to hold a certain hex, HI is usually your best bet. Plus, HI has deterrent value; just having HI sitting out there can put pressure on the enemy's recruitment pattern, which you can exploit with your other units.
it doesnt outtank a spear in a vil, it doesnt outtank anything against fire or cold, it only outtakes cav half the time, oh and it's 19g. so what does it outtank? ......the mage?
and again, assuming ur opponent uses ranged, then there's no reason for them to change their recruit pattern as even pierce takes out the hi quickly.
TL wrote: I don't think cavalry really needs the improvement (and in fact is hurt in most cases by the increased cost). The only case where cavalry recruits are really hurting is loyalist vs. loyalist, and adding impact is not going to do much there if HI's are out of the picture. Yes, cavalry is shaky vs. rebels but it's an excellent wose deterrent and can hold elf fighters pretty well. Cavalry is already decent vs. undead since undead have very limited pierce attacks; with 20% cold resist, 30% blade resist, and 40% impact resist cavalry is an excellent mobile defense. Subpar offense, but they do decently vs. adepts and can do non-negligible damage to skeletons/archers. If they recruit skeleton archers to counter your cav, so what? The more archers they have to recruit, the fewer skeletons and dark adepts you're facing, and those are what you really have to worry about.
this isnt about making it better, it's replacing the impact damage of the otherwise worthless HI.
Grand Marshal Aditya
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Post by Grand Marshal Aditya »

Okay...seriously...

Complaining isn't going to work...

If you remove them, loyalists are meat for undead.

Heavy infantry is a defensive unit meant to hold a line and create a fallback position for other units to retreat behind. Yes, they are expensive and risky and not as flashy as a horseman, but they get their job done and you have to accept them for their positives.

Wesnoth is about weighing in on all the positives and negatives and making decisions...if the units didn't have a drawback, who wouldn't use it?

Some people like certain units...and others like different ones. I like all the cavalry types in general, but I am not going to propose removing units I don't use much like HI...
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nebula955
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Post by nebula955 »

if you believe that i'll play you on the server without recruiting his against your ud. wanna try?
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anakayub
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Post by anakayub »

I think the arguments are getting a bit out of hand here... :(

Why don't we look at any replays, and discuss from those. Maybe (since lot's of people are talking about them) some LvsU, and LvsL. I'm sure that the MP dev's and many others would prefer this instead of good players arguing with each other.
Take a breath.
nebula955
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Post by nebula955 »

do you need replays of loy winning without hi, or hi doing badly?
because if the first, some are already in the replay, and the latter will end up being ambiguous. any such replays provided will be met with "it's not played optimal" or similar complaints considering that many of the best players dont use the hi........
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