is "fast" a bonus or malus ?

Sorrow · Post by **Sorrow** » July 27th, 2007, 10:20 pm

energyman76c wrote:
Sorrow wrote:Well considering zone of control, and the fact that if you chase something down with a quick unit that wasn't zoc protected, the quick unit is pretty much dead.
Then there are quick drakes which basically be come giant slabs of easily killed meat.
Quick mages could be useful if they didn't lose the HP, the HP loss makes it so that even the tiniest amount of unlock means the mage is pretty much dead. Since enemy units can shuffle past and cough in their the mage's direction and it dies.

Quick goblin spearmen shouldn't even be allowed, unless you can use them as firewood and get some sort of bonus out of that.

Every time i get a fast scout i gloat about how far it can go, of course it doesn't help that if he uses that range he is in enemy territory and can get zone of controlled half the time.

I can count the number of times i've been glad about getting quick on one finger.
that only shows, that you can't use the quick trait.. you are not very well versed in 'mobile' warfare, are you?

This thread is already a joke I figured I would add another wonderful high-quality post.

ElectricEel · Post by **ElectricEel** » July 28th, 2007, 8:45 pm

Elvish Pillager wrote:
TL wrote:Because of course balanced maps hardly ever have any roads or grassland for units to move on at all
For your information, on most official Wesnoth maps, grassland is the most prevalent terrain.

TL wrote:so quick units are always moving 1.5 to 2 times faster than non-quick units.
On normal maps, you don't tend to see large patches of the same terrain close together. The variance can just as easily make quick units move no faster than non-quick ones.

He isn't arguing against you. You may want to reconfigure your sarcasm detector.

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » July 28th, 2007, 8:58 pm

It's hard to detect sarcasm when it's no more extremely wrong than the other stuff I'm arguing against.

Martinus · Post by **Martinus** » August 2nd, 2007, 8:27 pm

Well, on many maps there are hexes with grass terrain between "hard" terrain. so I don't think that a quick unit would be 1, 5 times faster than non quick counterpart. On small mp maps quick makes little or no difference, but, come on, you don't play only small maps, do you?

Arcador · Post by **Arcador** » August 2nd, 2007, 9:03 pm

In 1.3.6 there is good improvement of some traits, including quick, which is made to have only 5% hp penalty than previous 10%. In my opinion this is very good idea. Also combined with the other changes of the traits - the combos now are not that deadly or devastating as before. For example a quick and intelligent troll is like double weaker than resilient and strong troll.

Edit: Doing the simple math. For example let's take a troll that have 40 hp.
In Version 1.2 - a Strong troll will have 41 hp. If the troll is resilient it will have 4 (10%)+3(based) from that, making a total of 48 hp.
Lets take the same unit but intelligent ant quick. It will have 36 hp. This is 12 hp difference - a difference between 1 and 4 hits.

In 1.3.5+ The same troll, strong and resilient will have 40+ 1 from strong and 5 from resilent making it total of 46.
A quick and intelligent troll will have 38 hp, which makes the difference 8 - 1 to 3 hits, which is a way batter than the previous.

Martinus · Post by **Martinus** » August 3rd, 2007, 11:29 am

Whilst the fast troll will have the advantage of running away from non fast troll and being just as fast as other units.

Weeksy · Post by **Weeksy** » August 3rd, 2007, 8:09 pm

One problem. IIRC, trolls can't get 'intelligent'. They can get 'fearless' though.

Tonepoet · Post by **Tonepoet** » August 14th, 2007, 3:36 am

Heh, as a player of the almost exclusively multiplayer verity, I can honestly say that I only ever really hope for Quick as part of my village collect. A lot of villages are 7 hexes away from a recruit spot in the official maps, a number that's only exactly filled by your average footpad and all ghosts. That means you have two options if you're playing any faction without those two units. The first would be to recruit a scout to ensure that you have more then enough move to grab the village regardless of if the unit is or isn't quick and the second being to recruit a more combat worthy 6 move unit and hope luck shines in your direction. I personally dislike recruiting more scouts then I have to in my initial recruit so I often opt for the latter option, with the former one as a fallback. I sometimes do similarly for slower units as well on a whim, however it's usually not so important in those cases.

Otherwise I don't particularly favor Quick's effect over any from the other traits and in fact, find the subtraction in HP quite annoying. I've often heard moans of disappointment when people got the Quick/Intelligent trait combination, since such units have the lowest HP possible for their unit types, making it much easier to kill them. Beyond turn 1 I'd probably much rather have any other trait, save intelligent, over it. The reason why I'd favor quick over intelligent is because intelligence typically has no notable effect in standard multiplayer matches, where seeing level 2s is a rarity regardless.

Still, quick can have a useful effect in battle without planning for it. For example, let's say there's an enemy unit with just 1 HP remaining simply 6 moves away from your elvish fighter, with no other units in reach. If the fighter is quick, you can probably finish the enemy unit off with no problems. Otherwise, the enemy unit is undoubtably safe.

So I'm going to say it's neither a bonus or a "malus". It's merely different then one with a blank instead. Still, this is slightly worse then a unit with almost any other trait instead because all other traits are absolutely better then a blank, without question. Again however, I feel that one should be happy recruiting a traitless unit in multiplayer, as it is simply too risky in most cases to put one's hopes into gaining particular combinations.

Clonkinator · Post by **Clonkinator** » August 14th, 2007, 7:04 pm

Really, quick is the best trait available, even though it subtracts some HP. Hey, your unit may be a little easier to kill, yeah, but if you react soon enough before your unit dies off completely, you can just run away and laugh at your attacker if he has at least one MP less than you, what is most likely the case if your unit is quick and the enemy unit is not (except for scouts). Heck, I find 'intelligent' much more useless because it has, as already mentioned, no notable effect on units in multiplayer, and also quite sucks in campaigns. It would be nice if the 'intelligent'-trait at least had some positive side-effect, like +2 HP or something. IMO, quick/strong and quick/resilient are the best combinations of traits possible (except for scouts and some certain units like the elvish archer, for which I prefer strong/resilient or dextrous/resilient or strong/dextrous (yeah, I do know that only elves can get the dextrous-trait. However, I mostly play with elves))

Firense · Post by **Firense** » August 14th, 2007, 9:04 pm

Clonkinator wrote:Really, quick is the best trait available, even though it subtracts some HP. Hey, your unit may be a little easier to kill, yeah, but if you react soon enough before your unit dies off completely, you can just run away and laugh at your attacker if he has at least one MP less than you, what is most likely the case if your unit is quick and the enemy unit is not (except for scouts). Heck, I find 'intelligent' much more useless because it has, as already mentioned, no notable effect on units in multiplayer, and also quite sucks in campaigns. It would be nice if the 'intelligent'-trait at least had some positive side-effect, like +2 HP or something. IMO, quick/strong and quick/resilient are the best combinations of traits possible (except for scouts and some certain units like the elvish archer, for which I prefer strong/resilient or dextrous/resilient or strong/dextrous (yeah, I do know that only elves can get the dextrous-trait. However, I mostly play with elves))

If you put it this way I agree, but what about this?
You are playing Northerners (I play them a lot), and you get quick troll whelps and grunts. I use these basically only on Mountains/Hills(/Forest for grunts) and use them as a frontline. If you opponent takes 50% health away from 2 units every turn you need to pull them back every time, and youll lose so much terrain that eventually hell control most of the villages.
No, give me Strong, Resilient Trolls and Grunts, and Quick, sometimes nice for Trolls but doesnt matter a lot, even with 5 MP almost all enemy units can catch up with it.

KingofNoobia · Post by **KingofNoobia** » August 16th, 2007, 6:47 pm

Rhuvaen wrote: Mobility is highly underrated by people who play mostly against the AI (campaigns) or who are new to competitive MP.

Indeed. Many people say "Knalgans are overpowered", but when playing them, I really find their low mobility a pain.

Weeksy · Post by **Weeksy** » August 16th, 2007, 6:53 pm

you find the 8 mp of a flying gryphon, or the 7 mp elusivefoot of a footpad slow? keep in mind that forest, mountain, hills, and cave do not slow the dwarves. Their slowness is a weakness, as it means that they can get caught on grass or forest, but their resists and hp more than make up for it... No faction is blatantly overpowered or underpowered, although the power of HODOR makes me wonder about knalgans.

Clonkinator · Post by **Clonkinator** » August 18th, 2007, 9:21 am

Firense wrote:
Clonkinator wrote:Really, quick is the best trait available, even though it subtracts some HP. Hey, your unit may be a little easier to kill, yeah, but if you react soon enough before your unit dies off completely, you can just run away and laugh at your attacker if he has at least one MP less than you, what is most likely the case if your unit is quick and the enemy unit is not (except for scouts). Heck, I find 'intelligent' much more useless because it has, as already mentioned, no notable effect on units in multiplayer, and also quite sucks in campaigns. It would be nice if the 'intelligent'-trait at least had some positive side-effect, like +2 HP or something. IMO, quick/strong and quick/resilient are the best combinations of traits possible (except for scouts and some certain units like the elvish archer, for which I prefer strong/resilient or dextrous/resilient or strong/dextrous (yeah, I do know that only elves can get the dextrous-trait. However, I mostly play with elves))
If you put it this way I agree, but what about this?
You are playing Northerners (I play them a lot), and you get quick troll whelps and grunts. I use these basically only on Mountains/Hills(/Forest for grunts) and use them as a frontline. If you opponent takes 50% health away from 2 units every turn you need to pull them back every time, and youll lose so much terrain that eventually hell control most of the villages.
No, give me Strong, Resilient Trolls and Grunts, and Quick, sometimes nice for Trolls but doesnt matter a lot, even with 5 MP almost all enemy units can catch up with it.

The thing is, do not use quick units as tanks. Of course it's a pain if every single of your units is quick, but that's rather unlikely to happen. Use quick units for annoying hit-and-run-strategies, and your resilient/non-quick ones as tanks which hold the line. Really, you should start to think about what the traits enable your units to do.

Heck, intelligent on the other hand does pretty much nothing. Sure, it helps you to level your unit up earlier, but your unit will often level into a dead corpse if it misses the extra strength, HP and such it could get from the other traits. Really.