Skilled players don't think the game is too random

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Agent Jack Bauer
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Skilled players don't think the game is too random

Post by Agent Jack Bauer » August 1st, 2006, 4:32 pm

split from Sauron's deterministic mod thread -mod
Sauron wrote: The mod was created in order to cope with excessive influence of the random number generator on the result of the game.
Modded game allows users to pick the amount of damage they intend to inflict for sure, thus making game more strategy-like rather than lottery-like.

Sauron, Sauron, Sauron.

It's like I told you-

You'd be better off learning how to actually play the game.

I guess there'll never be any shortage of low to mid-level players who think it all comes down to luck.
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Post by Noy » August 1st, 2006, 5:30 pm

Agent Jack Bauer wrote:
Sauron wrote: The mod was created in order to cope with excessive influence of the random number generator on the result of the game.
Modded game allows users to pick the amount of damage they intend to inflict for sure, thus making game more strategy-like rather than lottery-like.

Sauron, Sauron, Sauron.

It's like I told you-

You'd be better off learning how to actually play the game.

I guess there'll never be any shortage of low to mid-level players who think it all comes down to luck.
I'm going to have to agree with Jack bauer on this one and point something else... weapon specials will become widely skewed with more determinism in attacks. Slow, Magical, and poision will become alot more (or less) useful.

And just as a parting shot, to the people who think that wesnoth is lottery like really need to give their head a shake. If that was the case people like DK, Soliton, becephalaus ereksos and co. might be the luckiest people on earth. Wesnoth is strategy game, that takes an insane amount of skill to master.... yet people can't admit to their own faliability and prefer to blame it on luck. I'll admit, I've done it from time to time myself.

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Post by Sauron » August 1st, 2006, 5:57 pm

I am getting used to ignorance of some posters, so
after reading
Agent Jack Bauer wrote:
Sauron wrote: The mod was created in order to (.....) make game more strategy-like rather than lottery-like.[/b]
It's like I told you-
You'd be better off learning how to actually play the game.
I guess there'll never be any shortage of low to mid-level players who think it all comes down to luck.
PPL, do not believe him:
1. never talked to the guy
2. I spent MUCH too much time MASTERING Wesnoth in all factions in default era.
3. After I achieved my level - high above mid-level for your information, I see that IF 2 VERY GOOD players fight - luck decides. If you make no mistakes it is just the RNG. I know VERY well when I lost because I made mistake and when - I were killed by RNG. In every game there are situations in which you can gamble - or lose anyway if not gamble.
Agent Jack Bauer wrote:You'd be better off learning how to actually play the game.
I am much better off PRACTICING C++, don't you think?
Noy wrote: I'm going to have to agree with Jack bauer on this one and point something else... weapon specials will become widely skewed with more determinism in attacks. Slow, Magical, and poision will become alot more (or less) useful.
not reading is next to ignorance: I already fixed this problem:
Recent bug-fixes
16:17 01.08.2006
Corrected problem:
special-attacking unit always managed to poison/slow/stone the opponent. Problem solved, sources and executable are updated. Download below.

I see no good solution, bacause in 100% deterministic mode all poison should hit, but what am i supposed to do in 50% deterministic mode - at the moment to set poisoned flag is used original random result. So poisoner will hit, but poison - only if it WOULD in original Wesnoth. No matter what settings are picked.
Noy wrote:And just as a parting shot, to the people who think that wesnoth is lottery like really need to give their head a shake...
see above.

To all other ppl who want to say I made this mod because I were losing because I am a bad player - for your information - it was already written here, waste no time and place in this thread. Go throwing dices and call it strategy game.
Last edited by Sauron on August 1st, 2006, 7:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Sauron
Customize yourself random factor in game:
GET my mod [available as C++ sourcecode and compiled Windows executable] for wesnoth 1.6.4
at http://saurons-mod.zor.org/
Mod thread
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26803

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Post by turin » August 1st, 2006, 6:01 pm

Sauron wrote:PPL, do not believe him:
1. never talked to the guy
2. I spent MUCH too much time MASTERING Wesnoth in all factions in default era.
3. After I achieved my level - high above mid-level for your information, I see that IF 2 VERY GOOD players fight - luck decides. If you make no mistakes it is just the RNG. I know VERY well when I lost because I made mistake and when - I were killed by RNG. In every game there are situations in which you can gamble or lose anyway if not gamble.
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Post by Doc Paterson » August 1st, 2006, 7:20 pm

Sauron wrote:I am getting used to ignorance of some posters, so
after reading
Agent Jack Bauer wrote: It's like I told you-
You'd be better off learning how to actually play the game.
I guess there'll never be any shortage of low to mid-level players who think it all comes down to luck.
PPL, do not believe him:
1. never talked to the guy
2. I spent MUCH too much time MASTERING Wesnoth in all factions in default era.
3. After I achieved my level - high above mid-level for your information, I see that IF 2 VERY GOOD players fight - luck decides. If you make no mistakes it is just the RNG. I know VERY well when I lost because I made mistake and when - I were killed by RNG. In every game there are situations in which you can gamble - or lose anyway if not gamble.
Noy wrote: I'm going to have to agree with Jack bauer on this one and point something else... weapon specials will become widely skewed with more determinism in attacks. Slow, Magical, and poision will become alot more (or less) useful.
not reading is next to ignorance: I already fixed this problem:
Recent bug-fixes
16:17 01.08.2006
Corrected problem:
special-attacking unit always managed to poison/slow/stone the opponent. Problem solved, sources and executable are updated. Download below.

I see no good solution, bacause in 100% deterministic mode all poison should hit, but what am i supposed to do in 50% deterministic mode - at the moment to set poisoned flag is used original random result. So poisoner will hit, but poison - only if it WOULD in original Wesnoth. No matter what settings are picked.
Noy wrote:And just as a parting shot, to the people who think that wesnoth is lottery like really need to give their head a shake...
see above.

To all other ppl who want to say I made this mod because I were losing because I am a bad player - for your information - it was already written here, waste no time and place in this thread. Go throwing dices and call it strategy game.
Anyone who's ever played you is going to find it absurdly funny that you consider yourself a master. We've spoken at great length, and played at great length (4-5 1v1s), and what is most prominent in my memory of those games is the way in which you blamed luck for all of your losses (which would be EVERY game we've played :P ).

I never see you on the server for the current releases, so I can only guess that you've been hanging out with the weaker folks on the stable server, bolstering your opinion of your skills by slaying countless noobs.

This may make me sound like a Big Meanie, but I do not like the tone or the nature of such sweeping statements about the game, especially coming from someone who's barely bothered to learn the game or look to their own play-choices for the answers to their complaints. The problem can't be with you, because you're a master, right? Ah, it must be the game that is at fault. When good players play, the outcome must be a toss of the coin. Brilliant.

If you should, at any point, feel you'd like to re-evaluate your skills, take a trip to the current-release server and ask for a game with a good player. Seeing as you're such an expert, the outcomes ought to be 50/50, right?
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Post by Noy » August 1st, 2006, 7:41 pm

Sauron wrote:
Noy wrote:And just as a parting shot, to the people who think that wesnoth is lottery like really need to give their head a shake...
see above.

To all other ppl who want to say I made this mod because I were losing because I am a bad player - for your information - it was already written here, waste no time and place in this thread. Go throwing dices and call it strategy game.
Okay here is where I disagree. There are players who are very skilled at this game. As sapient pointed out the game is deterministic already, just with a random element, which you scale. Now there are players who win on a constant basis... not because they are lucky, but because they are skilled at strategy.


Where I disagree with you is your assertion that Random elements are not realistic. Actually they are, and really "strategy" is about minimizing how uncertainty can affect military operations. Combat is never straight forward. Units are often delayed due to unusally strong resistance, or may crush an enemy faster than anticipated. If we look today at the revolution in military affairs, its not about increadibly powerful new weapons or advances in destructive technologies, rather its the application of information technologies into warfighting in order to reduce the fog of war, IE "the random elements" in conflict.

All the top tacticians in the world have to deal with "random elements" and often do so by putting themselves into a place where they can minimize luck's effects on their position. During the first Gulf War, Colin Powell when asked why did he deploy five carriers quipped "because I couldn't deploy six" That is because conventional military's strategy towards dealing with uncertainty is by brining to bear overwhelming force. Military victories today are deterministic only because so much weaponry is expended that there is no way one could lose. This is what is behind the US military's Maneuver and firepower based doctrine.

In this game, I would argue that the best players actually take luck into account. They try to set up situations where they can minimize the influence of luck in a game. That often means ensuring that one posessess overwhelming power at a decisive point of contact. Interestingly enough I've found that 3-1 ratios of force (which is a standard in Military thought) roughly correspond a winning fomula when one side attacks another. Decisive power changes from unit to unit (because of different resistances on the part of the defender) and I find it has interesting results.

The random element in the game brings with it realism. As combat in Wesnoth is a simulation, there is no real way that we can simulate exactly what happens in combat. We can't have real elves and humans slugging it out, so we use randomness to give us a simulation of combat, within an overly deterministic model. Removing randomness is actually in itself unrealistic, and in some ways reduces the strategic realism of a game. The US army can't bank on killing 1 insurgent for every 40 rifle shots, so why should the game be 1 orc for 2 attacking archers? the world ain't that perfect, and neither should the game.

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Post by Sauron » August 1st, 2006, 7:50 pm

Doc Paterson wrote:(large pile of rubish here)
1. you played vs me a LONG time ago
2. I am much better than average player at 1.0.2, not my fault countless noobs decrease the value of the average
3. I do not play 1.1.* , I know only some things changed - so probably playing on your terms I would lose - however - when you played vs me I REALLY WERE NOT A GOOD PLAYER (to spare you effort I write here your answer "and you did not get any better from the time" - just copy-paste - or better - consider it written and search for something more interesting to do.

I do not care what you answer and what anybody else writes in this thread . Have a good time though.
Sauron
Customize yourself random factor in game:
GET my mod [available as C++ sourcecode and compiled Windows executable] for wesnoth 1.6.4
at http://saurons-mod.zor.org/
Mod thread
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26803

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Post by zookeeper » August 1st, 2006, 8:04 pm

Noy wrote:And just as a parting shot, to the people who think that wesnoth is lottery like really need to give their head a shake. If that was the case people like DK, Soliton, becephalaus ereksos and co. might be the luckiest people on earth.
Everyone knows (or they should, by common sense) that he doesn't imply that. As you well know, he means that no matter how good you are (and provided your opponent doesn't suck), you can lose just because of bad luck. No one can deny the fact that you can play a perfect game and still lose to an opponent slightly worse than you simply because of bad luck. If both players play a "perfect game", luck decides the outcome. If your opponent gets lucky in the initial clash and kills a few of your units through sheer luck, you can't win anymore (except by luck) provided that your opponent simply plays as well as you do.

Sure, a skilled player who's against a less skilled opponent can minimize the impact of luck a lot - so there's just a 0.1% chance of the newbie winning through sheer luck. But what can you do, when your opponent knows what he's doing? You can still play well and adjust the odds, but how much? 40-60 to your advantage? 30-70 if you play really well?

I do regard the random factor as one of the most annoying things about Wesnoth - I've played countless games where it was obviously the luck that decided the outcome. I got unreasonably lucky, or my enemy did. While I might not still trust less-luck mods a lot (or think that they are balanced) or play them, I see the criticism of the big luck factor of Wesnoth very valid. You can't just dismiss it by telling people to "play better", because playing better simply doesn't help if you get really bad luck.

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Post by Dragon Master » August 1st, 2006, 8:16 pm

Sauron wrote:
Doc Paterson wrote:(large pile of rubish here)
1. you played vs me a LONG time ago
2. I am much better than average player at 1.0.2, not my fault countless noobs decrease the value of the average
3. I do not play 1.1.* , I know only some things changed - so probably playing on your terms I would lose - however - when you played vs me I REALLY WERE NOT A GOOD PLAYER (to spare you effort I write here your answer "and you did not get any better from the time" - just copy-paste - or better - consider it written and search for something more interesting to do.

I do not care what you answer and what anybody else writes in this thread . Have a good time though.
It doesn't matter what anyone else in this thread says, when you act like a total a@#h$&%, no one will listen to you. I've never played you but so far you sound arrogant and pompous. Don't think you can convince people by yelling at them and tearing down/ignoring their arguements.

language please --mod
Last edited by Dragon Master on August 1st, 2006, 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by FleshPeeler » August 1st, 2006, 8:19 pm

Doesn't a guy deserve some respect for spending some of his own time modding the game to test a balance theory? Coming from the point of view of someone who has not yet contributed anything workable but looking to do so in the near future (i.e., me), watching this whole debacle go down is extremely unattractive.

Through all the ribs and jabs I've seen pitched at this guy who has made a decent attempt at making a contribution, I have not seen even one fair critique of his work (Other than a compliment from Sapient in the other thread). It doesn't look like anybody has even tried the mod before taking sides against him. That doesn't reflect well upon would-be future contributors to the game.

Let's leave our bruised egos out of the way and get back to work. [/flamewar aversion]
What if nobody ever asked "What if?"

FleshPeeler . . . Editting 5 times per every 1 post.

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Post by Noy » August 1st, 2006, 8:25 pm

zookeeper wrote:
Noy wrote:And just as a parting shot, to the people who think that wesnoth is lottery like really need to give their head a shake. If that was the case people like DK, Soliton, becephalaus ereksos and co. might be the luckiest people on earth.
Everyone knows (or they should, by common sense) that he doesn't imply that. As you well know, he means that no matter how good you are (and provided your opponent doesn't suck), you can lose just because of bad luck. No one can deny the fact that you can play a perfect game and still lose to an opponent slightly worse than you simply because of bad luck. If both players play a "perfect game", luck decides the outcome. If your opponent gets lucky in the initial clash and kills a few of your units through sheer luck, you can't win anymore (except by luck) provided that your opponent simply plays as well as you do.

Sure, a skilled player who's against a less skilled opponent can minimize the impact of luck a lot - so there's just a 0.1% chance of the newbie winning through sheer luck. But what can you do, when your opponent knows what he's doing? You can still play well and adjust the odds, but how much? 40-60 to your advantage? 30-70 if you play really well?

I do regard the random factor as one of the most annoying things about Wesnoth - I've played countless games where it was obviously the luck that decided the outcome. I got unreasonably lucky, or my enemy did. While I might not still trust less-luck mods a lot (or think that they are balanced) or play them, I see the criticism of the big luck factor of Wesnoth very valid. You can't just dismiss it by telling people to "play better", because playing better simply doesn't help if you get really bad luck.
Actually I disagree with that, you've missed the point of my earlier post. I've lost because of bad attacks, many a time. But to be honest, I and would argue most other "elite" players have won more because of uncertainty. Prior to an offensive I can look at my units and his and guess what my chances of success are. I then determine what I'm willing and likely to lose, and base my plans off of that. Thats a skill, one that takes alot of practice to develop.

If it was less random then I KNOW what my offensive is going to do, and makes the game less interesting to some degree, kinda like no fog.

Luck makes the game more variable. I can lose horribly because of luck and I can also win because of it... it can make my best laid plans go horribly awry at times (especially when I'm not paying attention) or go massively well (when I take advantage of it). For the most part though I think that luck can have an effect, but usually it isn't as decisive as one would think.

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Post by Elvish_Pillager » August 1st, 2006, 9:44 pm

In terms of chance and balance, I'll...

...have to agree with FleshPeeler. :P
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Post by Temuchin Khan » August 1st, 2006, 9:46 pm

Sauron wrote:Go throwing dices and call it strategy game.
Ah, but many classic games of strategy use dice, such as Risk. Besides, in the real world strategists have to take bad luck into account all the time. Why should a strategy game be any different?

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Post by Boucman » August 1st, 2006, 9:52 pm

I've observed that very often

Bad players bet on probabilities
Good players take statistics into account where building their stragtegy...
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Post by zookeeper » August 1st, 2006, 10:03 pm

Temuchin Khan wrote:Besides, in the real world strategists have to take bad luck into account all the time. Why should a strategy game be any different?
Because games are meant to be fun, not realistic. Real life can suck just because of bad luck, but it doesn't mean a game has to suck just because of bad luck as well.

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