Why are Dark Sorcerers resistant to holy attacks?

[Free]

Why are Dark Adepts/Dark Sorcerers/Necromancers resistant to holy attacks? Playing with black magic is a holy thing to do. Turning dead people into walking corpses is holy?

I also think that Dark Sorcerers are too powerful compared to a Red Mage.
If you multiply a Dark Sorcerer's stats by 1.25 to reach the cost of a Red Mage. You get:

15 total melee damage vs 12
33 ranged damage vs 32
60 hp vs 42
6 mp vs 5
113 xp vs 100

so you gain...
+3 melee damage (+1 if strong)
+1 ranged damage
+18 hp
+1 mp
-13 xp
...from being a Dark Sorcerer rather than a Red Mage for the cost.

[Jew unit]

notice the if you muliply by 1.25 part at the begining...and dark sorcers arnt undead yet thats why they are restiance to holy. and dont try and say red mages are too weak... it simply isnt true

[JW]

(1)Why are Dark Adepts/Dark Sorcerers/Necromancers resistant to holy attacks? Playing with black magic is a holy thing to do. Turning dead people into walking corpses is holy?

(2)I also think that Dark Sorcerers are too powerful compared to a Red Mage.
If you multiply a Dark Sorcerer's stats by 1.25 to reach the cost of a Red Mage. You get:

15 total melee damage vs 12
33 ranged damage vs 32
60 hp vs 42
6 mp vs 5
113 xp vs 100

so you gain...
+3 melee damage (+1 if strong)
+1 ranged damage
+18 hp
+1 mp
-13 xp
...from being a Dark Sorcerer rather than a Red Mage for the cost.

1) Those 3 units are living human units; as such, since all living units get +20% against Holy or better, they get +20% resistance against Holy.

2) Comparing singular units in different factions is faulty as the balance is faction balance, not unit-to-unit balance; also the comparison between these 2 units is faulty because you don't multiply any unit's stats to account for cost in balancing.



If I had been in a worse mood I would have simply said: "They aren't undead," and left it at that.

[Free]

1) Those 3 units are living human units; as such, since all living units get +20% against Holy or better, they get +20% resistance against Holy.

Okay, I just think that all living units getting +20% against Holy is flat out stupid. Why is that? Who's idea was that? Because they must have also been thinking that practicing black magic is dedicated to God. Is black magic a holy thing to practice? Apparently...

2) Comparing singular units in different factions is faulty as the balance is faction balance, not unit-to-unit balance; also the comparison between these 2 units is faulty because you don't multiply any unit's stats to account for cost in balancing.

Why can't I multiply any unit's stats? Can I multiply the amount of units then? What would you rather have?
5 Dark Sorcerers or 4 Red Mages?
240 total hp or 168 total hp?
60 total melee attack or 48 total melee attack?
130 total ranged attack or total 128 ranged attack?

I don't know...I would take the 5 Dark Sorcerers...How 'bout you?

[scott]

1) Those 3 units are living human units; as such, since all living units get +20% against Holy or better, they get +20% resistance against Holy.

Okay, I just think that all living units getting +20% against Holy is flat out stupid. Why is that? Who's idea was that? Because they must have also been thinking that practicing black magic is dedicated to God. Is black magic a holy thing to practice? Apparently...

Practicing most black magic doesn't change your species or physiological makeup, any more than an evil act like slaughtering babies would. People are more than the sum of their choices.

On the other hand, we are saying that at a certain point practicing advanced black magic does have a corrupting effect on your body, and that it happens at the L3 Lich level. The person had to make a conscious effort to destroy his or her humanity. Anyway, I'm sorry you think it's stupid.

[Sniper]

Why can't I multiply any unit's stats? Can I multiply the amount of units then? What would you rather have?
5 Dark Sorcerers or 4 Red Mages?
240 total hp or 168 total hp?
60 total melee attack or 48 total melee attack?
130 total ranged attack or total 128 ranged attack?

I don't know...I would take the 5 Dark Sorcerers...How 'bout you?

I would like to say my opinion.

First - you cannot compare only some of the stats. And there are not only stats in play. For example size is also a stat to comapare. If you have unit A with all stats 1 (for example) and unit B with stats 2, you can say that first must have half cost. Nonsence - because you need 12 units A to do the work of 6 units B, this is important - 12 units can't attack 1 unit in one turn, but 6 can.

And I could find many other nonstandart stats which you must take into consideration.

But the main reason is to have not ultimate weapon against 1 side - if you have only holy attacks on undead, they can use vampires and "dark mages" you mentioned to protect against you. And this is a think of game balance. The game where is one type of unit ultimate and sure way to victory is wrong game.

[JW]

1) Those 3 units are living human units; as such, since all living units get +20% against Holy or better, they get +20% resistance against Holy.

Okay, I just think that all living units getting +20% against Holy is flat out stupid. Why is that? Who's idea was that? Because they must have also been thinking that practicing black magic is dedicated to God. Is black magic a holy thing to practice? Apparently...

They are humans. Read what Scott wrote. What if a Skeleton decides he wants to run a nursery for children? Should he get positive resistance to Holy?

-edit-
Also, White Mages and Mages of Light have more than 20% Holy resistance.

2) Comparing singular units in different factions is faulty as the balance is faction balance, not unit-to-unit balance; also the comparison between these 2 units is faulty because you don't multiply any unit's stats to account for cost in balancing.

Why can't I multiply any unit's stats? Can I multiply the amount of units then? What would you rather have?
5 Dark Sorcerers or 4 Red Mages?
240 total hp or 168 total hp?
60 total melee attack or 48 total melee attack?
130 total ranged attack or total 128 ranged attack?

I don't know...I would take the 5 Dark Sorcerers...How 'bout you?

Try reading my quoted bold again and actually thinking about what is says. Units are not balanced on a one-to-one basis. Also, if you think the Undead are overpowered compared to Rebels and Loyalists (the 2 factions with Mages), why don't we play a game where you're Undead and I'm Rebels or Loyalists - your pick even. How's that sound? I think you'll find that Undead are not overpowered.

[Sapient]

I also think that Dark Sorcerers are too powerful compared to a Red Mage.
If you multiply a Dark Sorcerer's stats by 1.25 to reach the cost of a Red Mage. You get:

It sounds like the problem is not their power, but their cost.
So maybe the cost of the L2 units needs to be updated?
This won't have any effect on the Default Era.

However, keep in mind that cheap access to powerful magic attacks is one of the undead's primary strengths. A player who recruits only dark adepts should be able to beat a player who recruits only mages.

[Doc Paterson]

For FOG'S SAKE, how many times do people need to hear this to understand it? As JW has said, twice now,


It is pointless doing unit-to-unit comparisons.


We balance factions. Factions. We don't balance thunderers against elvish archers, mages against adepts, gryphons against ghosts or dark sorcerers against red mages.

The bottum line is only that the factions attain overall balance against one another.

Free, if you think that undead are overpowered, you should take a trip to the server and see what the good folks here can teach you.

[Doc Paterson]

What if a Skeleton decides he wants to run a nursery for children? Should he get positive resistance to Holy?

Quote of the decade.

[Elvish_Pillager]

Somebody mentioned God in this thread. Well, by the way there are no gods (or Gods, or any other capitalization, spelling, or pluralization of any word referring to deities) in official Wesnoth.

If you want to know what about the holy damage type then, well, Holy damage is an abomination.

[FleshPeeler]

You're attributing Good vs. Evil, and I think that's the flaw here. Even in reality there is no good or evil; there are actions which you support, which you call "good," and there are actions which you are against, which are "evil." If you were to ask any two sides of a war which side was the evil one, both will say the other. Hitler felt perfectly well justified with the Holocaust, I'll remind you. In his mind he was a good man, and everybody who stood against him were evil doers trying to put a stop to his perfect race.

But I'm digressing.

Holy damage is not based upon actions. Rather, Holy damage targets the magical bonds that hold a walking corpse together. Think of Holy more as anti-Undeath-Magic. Holy is Life energy in this game. The dead are opposed to life. A Dark Adept, Necromancer, and Dark Sorcerer are all still alive - there are no magical bonds holding their bonds together because they are still living flesh. Therefore, they are resistant to Holy.

Besides, Undead needs at least one unit that can resist Holy energy if for no other reason than for balance.

[JW]

Hitler felt perfectly well justified with the Holocaust...

Is that Godwin's law?

[specops]

Indeed. I would like to register a complaint that Goblin Spearmen are overpowered against Horsemen. Compare (multiplying the Spearman's stats by 23/8 (cost ratio of Horseman/Spearman in 1.1.7)

Goblin Spearman
11-3 (or 14-3 with strong!) Melee
9-1 Ranged
52 HP
18 XP to level

Horseman:
9-2 Charge Melee
38 HP
44 XP

And the Spearman is only a level 0 unit! I demand right now that this be remedied!


A perfect comparison analogy to what Free was saying earlier? No. Illustrative of the ridiculousness of the comparison? Yes.

[FleshPeeler]

I've thought of one reason why Dark Sorcerers may not be as strong as Red Mage. Dark Sorcerers deal cold damage, a type that is significantly more rare than fire. Also, many units generally have a lower resistance to cold than to fire, and for some (Drakes especially) it is their only weakness. If you take this into account, Dark Sorcerer damage balances out with Red Mage.

Fire damage:
Orcish Archer/Crossbow/Slurbow
Goblin Pillager
Mage/Red Mage/Arch Mage/Silver Mage
All Drakes + their advancements (some 8 units, maybe? Not entirely familiar with Drakes)

Cold Damage:
Ghost/Wraith/Shadow
Dark Adept/Necromancer/Sorcerer/Lich
Saurian Tribalist

You're looking at a 16/8 (2::1) ratio of Fire/Cold damage. Out of those, I believe Dark Sorcerer is one of the two strongest disher-outers of cold damage, so by that right it is more valuable.

By the way, do you realize you were comparing a level 2 unit against a level 3? Of course the Dark Sorcerer is more powerful . . . it's a lot harder to get one.

Edit:

Hitler felt perfectly well justified with the Holocaust...

Is that Godwin's law?

It sure is.