Heir to the Throne campaign replay, on hard with no losses

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Doc Paterson
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Post by Doc Paterson »

Elvish Pillager wrote:No, baruk is THE MAN. He did it first, so Soliton is ANOTHER MAN. :P

Well done, baruk. :P

I'm not trying to slight Baruk (well done, of course), but it's not as though this is some sort of contest in which quality is determined by order of appearance.

It's also not as though we have thousands or even hundreds of players trying to beat HTTT on hard with no losses; I'd guess most players haven't even thought to try.

I'm basing my praise/opinions on the replays themselves, and I'm particularly impressed by the Soliton replays.
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

It seems rather impolitic to praise one feat spontaneously in the presence of another of outwardly equal significance. :|

What I want to see is UTBS - no losses! :twisted:

Maybe hard mode isn't hard enough if people are playing it now with no losses... It's a bit depressing actually.

Personally I haven't played anything without losses for a while - it gets boring. On the other hand, maybe I should get back to it when I'm not feeling cynical and impatient.
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Post by Doc Paterson »

Elvish Pillager wrote: Maybe hard mode isn't hard enough if people are playing it now with no losses... It's a bit depressing actually..
Another (in my opinion) much more likely explanation is that the overall level of play has risen.
Elvish Pillager wrote: Personally I haven't played anything without losses for a while - it gets boring. On the other hand, maybe I should get back to it when I'm not feeling cynical and impatient.
Were you ever able to do it on any mode other than easy? (That's just me being forgetful, not rude.)

You should try HTTT Hard No Losses, and see how you fare.
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Elvish_Pillager
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Doc Paterson wrote:
Elvish Pillager wrote: Maybe hard mode isn't hard enough if people are playing it now with no losses... It's a bit depressing actually..
Another (in my opinion) much more likely explanation is that the overall level of play has risen.
Things have definitely got easier since two years ago, but overall, I'm sure you're right on that count too.
Doc Paterson wrote:
Elvish Pillager wrote: Personally I haven't played anything without losses for a while - it gets boring. On the other hand, maybe I should get back to it when I'm not feeling cynical and impatient.
Were you ever able to do it on any mode other than easy? (That's just me being forgetful, not rude.)
I reached Siege of Elensefar on Hard, and then gave up (more from lazyness/lack of time than from difficulty, although I wasn't doing as well as I'd have liked either.) Of course, this was back in - I dunno, 0.9.2? Things have changed since then. That was back when Archers and Shamans costed 18 each, and when Resilient was less overpowered than it is now. Nowadays, Resilient units would positively own on the later levels.

I've also gotten quite far in Delfador's Memoirs, normal difficulty, but that campaign has quite few enemies in the later levels and I eventually just got bored of going through the motions.
Doc Paterson wrote:You should try HTTT Hard No Losses, and see how you fare.
Indeed.

Ask me again when I'm not installing Linux, teaching people to program, coding an AI programming game, debating on IRC, *puff puff* and of course posting on the forums.

(Yeah, sorry about being a bit slow on Wesnoth-playing - I have lots of other things I'm into. Wesnoth gets a disproportionate amount of my time even so.)
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Post by JW »

I haven't played HTTT since it got easier, but in reading the changelog it does sem to have gotten easier by a good amount since I beat it on 1.0.

Notable changes include:

* Isle of Anduin: reduced difficulty
* Bay of Pearls: traits for mermen, you get a hunter and initiate, added
ford to help units cross, hunter and initiate available after winning
* Lost General: side 2 ally allows you to recruit guardsmen (for dwarf
balancing)
* slow does not remove an attack anymore
* slowed units see the damage they deal halved immediately
* Lost General map now slightly more friendly to smallfoot units
* Sceptre of Fire - more villages and dirt road near starting castle
* Northern Winter - added turns for balancing
* Scepter of Fire - enemies have less gold for balancing
* Swamp of Dread - smaller map for faster but more intense gameplay
* removed Mountain Pass and Valley of Statues from the campaign
* Blackwater Port: secret bonus for beating the leader on hard
* Scepter of Fire: major rebalance to relax the pace of the level
* Home of the North Elves: army camps are invincible, elves defend you better
* Increased minimum gold for most of campaign Act 2
Not to mention all the changes to the units since then.

There were a couple of changes to make some places more difficult (I believe snow terrains slowing you is probably significant), but on the whole it appears to have gotten easier. The biggest changes to me are:

Slow changed for Shamans,
Archers -> 17gp
smallfoot use in Lost General
"relaxed pace" in Scepter of Fire
increased minimum gold
(also the removal of 2 levels).

This is just an observation and I haven't actually played HTTT through since 1.1.1ish, so I actually don't know how drastic the effects are, and I'm not trying to take anything away from anybody, but the legendary difficulty of HTTT seems to be slowly decreasing.
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Post by George Mason »

If you guys want something difficult to do, try working with Jack Bauer without getting thrown in prison; it's not as easy as it looks.
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Post by Soliton »

JW wrote: The biggest changes to me are:

Slow changed for Shamans,
Archers -> 17gp
smallfoot use in Lost General
"relaxed pace" in Scepter of Fire
increased minimum gold
(also the removal of 2 levels).
I find those rather neglectible changes. I never used minimum gold IIRC except maybe in one of the first scenarios.
I hardly used any smallfoot units in the Lost General.
If anything the removing of scenarios made it more difficult overall since you get less XP. Those weren't particularly difficult scenarios AFAIR.
Also many of the changes you listed are for the easy difficulty *only* as that has been the main complaint and center of attention for HttT balancing.

Some random changes that made HttT more difficult than before:
You get Gryphons quite a bit later.
A surrounded AI unit doesn't just stand still. This makes approaching a powerful leader for example quite a bit more complicated than before.
Ghosts have drain on melee. (Isle of the Damned)

But yes overall it probably got easier.
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Post by (S)elfish weirdo »

Elvish Pillager wrote:What I want to see is UTBS - no losses! :twisted:
Been there, done that. Thought I never posted the replays since a bug forced me to cheat (a shyde went under 1 due to damage which is supposed to always been non-lethal and somehow my entire army - except the shyde, now at -1 hp - dissapeared), which most likely destroyed that particular replay. Also, they're way outdated now. And to be fair, I did lose one village in the map with the battling undead lords.
From Baruk's comments I'm able to discern that he most likely looked at extreme maps such as the test of the clans (I think I replayed that some 20-30 times before lossless victory...) and most of the EI campaign, where I was pretty much forced to replay until I got lucky because they're impossible to pass with 10% or so total chance of death.
I'm curious to see how you completed the test of the clans without losses. I suppose I'll take a look at it.
Last edited by (S)elfish weirdo on June 21st, 2006, 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by JW »

Soliton wrote:Also many of the changes you listed are for the easy difficulty *only* as that has been the main complaint and center of attention for HttT balancing.
Hmm...didn't know that. Although I have to argue that the new Slow is a significant upgrade. Lowering damage and not attacks on Trolls, etc, makes survivability greater, and on units with 3+ attacks it's simply better.

Also, I didn't want to go through all of the unit changes, but I think that Loyalists have been downgraded a little and Rebels/Knalgans have upgraded a little since 1.0. It's true that Undead have gotten better, but the last couple scenarios should be a little easier I think. (Cavalry, Duelist damage downgrade, Dwarf Fighter damage upgrade(?))

That's just a feeling though, I could be wrong. I haven't looked through the specifics in a while.
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Post by baruk »

I've attached the stats (in notepad) for the 4 scenarios from Lost general to A choce must be made from my campaign attempt.

I tried watching a few of Soliton's replays, but most were corrupt with 1.1.5, I will have to give them another try in the next version.

The bay of pearls replay worked: he used a different approach, leaving the NW merman cage as the last one to open, and holding a line further up the map.
Part of the Battle for wesnoth replay was intact. Whereas I had held a line which included the starting castle, Soliton successfully rushed the south western loyalist's castle. This would seem to be the best way to utilise the merman units, as they can be deployed much more easily from this castle, having access to the river.

Overall, Soliton was a more aggressive in his attempt, killing ~100 more of the enemy (about 15% more). I focused more on a defensive approach, I just wanted to see how feasible no losses were on hard, and didn't always try to complete the additional challenges along the way (such as defeating all the liches in valley of death).

Of the changes made between the versions, the one I would have most welcomed in my attempt was the ability to recruit dwarven guardsmen (though it seems the level 3 version may not be as good a damage soak as the dwarven lord).
An observation: whilst two scenarios have been dropped along the way, it's worth noting that some turn limits have been increased (I noticed that Sceptre of Fire in particular has gone from a 37 to a 50 turn limit). This would give you more time to gain exp, going some way to making up for the reduced number of scenarios.
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Post by JW »

baruk wrote:(I noticed that Sceptre of Fire in particular has gone from a 37 to a 50 turn limit).
:shock: :shock: :shock:
WOW???

I really need to play this campaign again...
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Post by Soliton »

baruk wrote: An observation: whilst two scenarios have been dropped along the way, it's worth noting that some turn limits have been increased (I noticed that Sceptre of Fire in particular has gone from a 37 to a 50 turn limit). This would give you more time to gain exp, going some way to making up for the reduced number of scenarios.
Indeed, however there was no real opposition in that scenario. I went through it with no problems finishing around some mid-20 turn I believe. There were no gold problems after that. Well, not that there were before, I think I beat most scenarios quite completly except the Ford of Abez (would have needed a much bigger amount of gold and some lucky movement from Li'sar) and of course the Home of the North Elves (just not possible).

We'll see if these replays provide for some rebalancing of the hard difficulty, if only they would all work correctly.. :?
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Post by kiet »

Wow,50 turns.
That´s enough for me to go around and squish all the annoying saurians in that scenario as they are so hard to hit.
Need to play the campaign again. :P
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

In the twenty-seventh year of the reign of Garard II, king of Wesnoth, the kingdom was plunged into a bitter war with the Peoples of the North.

From memory. It just goes to show how many times I've started that campaign... :P


EDIT: advice on Elves Besieged. "Don't fight at night. Fighting at night can get you killed. Instead, let the stupid allies die at night. You know you want to."

EDIT: lol, some kind of no losses. The first time, Konrad dies; the second time, Delfador dies. None of my Elves have died yet.
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

I have played three games now. In the first, Konrad died with an 18.75% chance to die; in the second, Delfador died with an 18.75% chance to die; in the third, an Elvish Archer died with a 1.1% chance to die.

So I looked at Soliton's replay to see how he did it (baruk's is from an old version and gives a Bus Error), and he did it by having Galdrad's and Chantal's troops attack in concert from forest (something I can't figure out how to do), and then putting his shaman out in the hills where it had >50% chance to die. I didn't even bother watching the rest of the replay.

As you can imagine, I am rather frustrated by this. What am I supposed to do, saveload it to death?
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
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