New orc campaign general brainstorming.

[SmokemJags]

2 YW
Orcs, following the ships fleeing from the Green Isle, begin to arrive on the Great Continent.
These Orcs are defeated by Haldric's forces.
Some of the Orcish survivors flee back to the Green Isle, others move to attack the Elves.
King Haldric helps the Elves fight the surviving Orcs.

8 YW
A second wave of Orcs arrive from the Green Isle; these Orcs start claiming large portions of the Great Continent for themselves.
Haldric I dishonors the Pact he spoke with the Elves and refuses to give aid.

23 YW
Haldric II sends General Aldar west with a portion of the Wesnoth army, to aid the Elves.
The Orcs in the eastern lands are defeated.

20-130 YW: The Taming of the Wild
Planning to put the orc civil war campaign right around this era. Part of the story I've concocted will actually mesh quite well this that 23 YW entry.

So what I need explained is...
What is the relationship between the orcs and the undead exactly?
In Rise of Wesnoth campaign, the orcs you fight in the final scenario, titled Rise of Wesnoth, are clearly subordinate to the lich lord Jeyvan, or whatever his name is.

So when the entry of YW 8 is mentioned where orcs 'claim large portions of the land for themselves'... what's the deal? Are the orcs striking out on their own, or are they still some sort of army subservient to liches?

By the time that Son of the Black Eye campaign (when exactly is that set anyways?) rolls around, the orcs don't seem to have any relationship with the undead.

Need a little explanation please...
In toms and my campaign, the orcs are 'free' and the core of the campaign story is based on some liches/undead trying to make a slave army out of them again. Will this work here and if not... where in the time line would it fit for such an event, and a minor orcish civil war, to take place?

[scott]

It does seem like, judging from the different campaigns, that orcs are easy to subjugate and use as minions.

Somewhere out there is the race of elder orcs - and they work for nobody!

I would say if you're making the definitive orc campaign, the sky is the limit. Otherwise, keep it managable.

[Mustelid]

The usual explanation is that orcs
a) are unprincipled mercenaries, easily bought,
b) respect and admire brute power, and willingly follow it,
c) will seize any opportunity for battle and looting.

So orcs will ally with undead as and when it's convenient, because they'll ally with anyone if it fits the motives above. (The obvious example is that in HttT many of the orcs fight on the side of the Loyalists, while other factions are allied with undead and others will attack anybody).

As for units - it depends on the campaign length. I do find playing with default Northeners very difficult, and in a longer campaign I'd really like to see a few more unit types. Some decent healer / magic attack units, for instance. They wouldn't have to be recruitable, though; a few individual units joining you would fill the gap just as well.

[SmokemJags]

making the definitive orc campaign

One of the biggest design mistakes is to work on a giant project as the first thing you do. Best to start small, but ambitious.

If toms can pull off the code, it should be the first multiplayer campaign, but I'm not aiming for the definitive orc campaign. Wesnoth definitely needs more orc and undead campaigns and dwarf ones too (humans and elves, especially elves, seem to have plenty) but have to go one step at a time.

Concerning the behavior of orcs...
Thx for the input, I should be able to work out a story that fits the orc profile and Wesnoth timeline pretty well.

So orcs will ally with undead as and when it's convenient

Especially with this idea.

Healers would be a maybe, magic users is probably a definitely.
I wonder...
In World of Warcraft there is race called the Tauren. They're basically bipedal bovines. Can we make a Tauren minor faction in this game, or would we have to rename them? They'd fit pretty well as casters/healers.

[scott]

I wonder...
In World of Warcraft there is race called the Tauren. They're basically bipedal bovines. Can we make a Tauren minor faction in this game, or would we have to rename them? They'd fit pretty well as casters/healers.

I have one of several perfectly awesome stock answers I could throw in here, but here's what you get:

Since the artwork is going to be from scratch anyway, get creative and come up with something original. Don't consult the peanut gallery committee; just make it cool and do it.

[SmokemJags]

'Creating' units from scratch is not something I'm generally good at. I'm much better at modifying (animating existing units rather than making new ones, for example.)

I'll try my hand and see how it turns out. But in the meantime tell all your friends about this thead.
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10205

[Alks]

You're thinking about Taurens.

I say simply - make Minotaurs. They would give you enough space for innovation and enough background to start with.

[turin]

I don't understand the poll's relation to the thread, but...



In TROW, the orcs are basically mercenaries working for the lichs. After the lichs have lost their power, the orcs flee north and settle the northlands.



I would advise against making Minotaurs as a side-race to ally with the Orcs or anything. If you want more orcs, you can always borrow the Steppe Orcs of Zhukov.

[Alks]

I wasn't thinking of Minotaurs as an orcish allies in general - more like as a "campaign ally". I also don't feel, that they go well together. Just the idea of Taurens was brought up, and Minotaurs came to my head.

And if we really are going into expanding orcish faction for campaign purposes, and not only looking for allies, then we still have goblins, who really deserve something more than two units branches. Wolfriders and cheap cannon fodder is a standard, but they could be developed into something more.

[SmokemJags]

I don't understand the poll's relation to the thread, but...

I didn't want to make two threads, one for the information here and one just to have the poll. Two birds one stone.

In TROW, the orcs are basically mercenaries working for the lichs. After the lichs have lost their power, the orcs flee north and settle the northlands.

Sounds great to me. I can use that easily.

If you want more orcs, you can always borrow the Steppe Orcs of Zhukov.

I asked him about that but he said he didn't want them used in a campaign until they are complete. I respect his wishes and don't feel comfortable borrowing just his art.

I like that goblin suggestion and that sort is the direction I wanted to take. The northerns, to me, just seem to have the fewest units and the least branching within that unit list. Doesn't make for an interesting campaign.




Now that the question of the timeline/history has been answered I'd like to move this thread towards the focus of the poll. Additional/new orc units and the like for a campaign.

Taurens/Minotaurs... Back burner for now.

Goblins...
The goblin rouser really annoys me. A level 1 unit with leadership... practically useless.
Idea for the goblin spearman line:
Level 0: Goblin Spearman
Level 1: Goblin Impaler
Level 2: Goblin Rouser and Goblin Sapper
Level 3: Goblin Commander and Goblin Invader


Spearman turns to impaler.
Impaler splits into leadership(rouser -> commander) and combat(sapper -> invader) trees.

Might need a new name for the sapper.
Sappers and invaders will be pretty much the same as the impaler, except stronger as they level. And they will be skirmishers. Orcs don't have skirmishers, do they?

Rationale:
This goblin has managed to survive long enough to learn that his small size can be an advantage, allowing him to dart between larger and clumsier foes.


Add third level for Goblin Pillager.
Goblin... ravager. Same as pillager, just better stats.

Any other ideas for what goblins can be used for?
Goblin engineers?

Orcs need magic users.
Orcish warlocks for damage.
Use the existing shamans for a healing type caster. I don't really like the current unit images though...

Variation on the orc archer line.
Have a tree that keeps them as archers.
Orcish Archer -> Orcish Battlebowman -> Orcish Greatbowman
More shots less damage per shot.

Keep the grunt -> warrior -> warlord.
Add...
Orc grunt -> Orc soldier -> Orc enforcer
A line more focused on... I dunno something.

Add third level to assassin tree.
Orcish assassin -> orcish slayer -> orcish phantom/orcish ninja.
Phantom has lower hp than slayer, slightly better attack, 10% more defense on all terrains over slayer(is that even possible?)
Ninja... more natural progression of more hp/more damage

[Maeglin Dubh]

Slayer is an elusive. Pretty much as high as terrain defense can reasonably get.

Not sure ninja is the best name for an orcish character... I realize it's probably just a though, but all the same.

The reason for crossbowmen is that Orcs are terrible archers. Adding an archer line decreases the plausibility somewhat, AFAIC.

[scott]

I issue a warning. You risk utter disaster if you put yourself in the situation where goblins lead orcs in combat. The rouser is intended to only lead L0 goblins.

If you ask me (I know you didn't ), there are a lot of grunt variations you could use. Orcs like to fight, and they like to use lots of weapons. Big grunts, armored grunts, grunts with hammers, grunts that become leaders, grunts with throwing axes, grunts with one sword, grunts with pole weapons, etc.

[SmokemJags]

I issue a warning. You risk utter disaster if you put yourself in the situation where goblins lead orcs in combat. The rouser is intended to only lead L0 goblins.

I see what you're getting at...
Definite no to the Goblin Commander as a level 3 then.
I'm still iffy on the subject of a level 2 rouser though. He's able to lead brand new recruits(level ones) but these orcs eventually surpass a level 2 so that's why I don't want to completely abandon this idea.
I wanted a unit that could give a damage bonus to level 1 units that:
Wasn't the player's leader.
Wasn't an orc.
Beefed up the amount of Goblins there are.

I'm glad to see the goblin with skirmish didn't get shot down. I particularly like that idea.

As for orcish archers... maybe its good that they are terrible archers. Would make good units for the AI to use against the player. Make some history about it...
*In the early years when the orcs first came to Wesnoth, they would loot weapons from their fallens enemies. Including bows from bowmen. Over time it became apparent that they weren't very good at using the bows, though several orcs still wield them because they've not been trained in use of a crossbow*

Orcish slayer level 3... I dunno, I kinda want to have it... maybe only make 1 version without the super evasion and give him poison on his melee attack as well.

Grunt variations is a good idea, however:
I don't want leader grunts because leadership among orc ranks should bevery selective. They are not naturally a race that 'leads' and I want to save orc leadership specifically for the leader/ruler/sovereign.
That a mere goblin has survived long enough to get from level 0 to level 2... maybe these naturally leadership-deficient orcs will realize the lessons such a goblin can teach them... until they level up get stronger and stop listening to the little weenie goblin veteran.
Big grunts? I think trolls fit that bill a little too well.
Armored grunts... that's a maybe.
Hammer grunts... *tries to think of a orc unit with impact damage*
...
...
...
Sounds good, though again it conflicts with the trolls.
throwing axes might be suitable instead of the archer line.
One big sword for a grunt... seems to lean towards the area of the troll again. Low number of attacks high damage.
Pole weapons... I dunno.
Although I would like to see SOME orc unit attack more than 3 times... other races are getting up to 5 swings in their attacks, and with the uncoming warlord change, he's losing his 4 swings...

[Shaimus McDougal]

If you want more goblins you could just give them a completely new unit. Maybe: goblin slinger(0) -->goblin archer(1) or something like that. I would make the rouser be the final stage (lvl1) but as alternate use goblin patroler or some such (lvl1) then as final goblin chief (lvl2). No goblin should go past level 2.

I want the minotaurs!

[SmokemJags]

So much hate for the poor little goblins. I do admit I'm thinking a lot about how WoW goblins are.
I think of the saurians as a sub-race to the drakes much like the goblins are to the orcs. They still manage to crank out a level 3 three skirmish. The goblin invader would probably end up being quite similar to the saurian ambusher, come to think of it. Probably no ranged attack though.
Could knock out the goblin sapper though, that would place the invader as a rank 2.

So it'd be like...

Level 0: Gob Spear
Level 1: Gob Imp (maybe rouser here)
Level 2: Gob Invader (maybe rouser here)

I'm still leaning towards the Impaler upgrading to either the leader or the skirmisher though and then AMLA taking over from there.

So Minotaurs. I'm not very partial towards them, but if someone wants to come up with the units and some art down the road, I should be able to squeeze them in the campaign. As it is, I'm waiting for toms to wrap up the code so we actually have a play test version. Can't be asking for people to make new art before we even have something that works.

So on to other unit ideas...
The shamans as healers...
Level 1 won't have healing
Level 2 will have 'heals'
Level 3 will have 'cures'

Names: Apprentice, Mystic, Shaman
Individual stats... not too worried about that yet.

Orc warlocks:
I wish someone had that shadow damage stuff done, that'd be neat to give the orcs.
Level 1 something similar to the dark adept.
Level 2 a branch that focuses on balance, a branch that focuses on the ranged attack
Level 3 upgrades for each of these branches.
Level 4 (maybe but doubtful) for the ranged attack focus

Names: Warlock, witch, magus, magi...

Orc grunt branches:
Level 1: Grunt
Level 2: Warrior, Soldier, Destroyer(think death blade or drake gladiator)
Level 3: Warlord, Enforcer

Destroyer would be focused on damage and having two different types of melee attack.
Soldier, one melee attack type and a moderate ranged attack... maybe those throwing axes.
Enforcer: Stronger version of soldier, weaker melee than warlord better ranged.

All of those units, if they ever see the light of day, plus things like a third level for the pillager...
What's everyone think of that amount of units for an orc campaign?
Could use a little more I think, but it's looking good.