Forum restructuring - discussion

[Noy]

Funny story. I've managed to both become a 'forum regular' and be stripped of it in... twelve days?

Beat you. I just got mine revoked within less than a week.

What's the deal guys? I mean, I, like SmokemJags, don't really care about ranks but this is silly. I feel like I've been slapped on the wrist without being told what I did wrong.

Here's I'll be completely forthright. First off a lot of people were added without going through a rigorous process of selection. I think you and smokemjags have potential to make a significant contribution (you in scenarios and Smokem in art and other areas) but maybe are not ready as of yet.

In your case I think it was this thread that made us re-evaluate the basis of addition.

http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... sc&start=0

Notice how devs stopped posting entirely after page 2 (mostly after page 1). Moreover you completely ignored the point that every single dev made that your proposals already existed, and you should probably play the game more. Instead you went ahead and proposed a complete remaking of the factional balance, based on some really vague concepts like "sustained offence." How you would give a chaotic faction like the northerners sustained offence during the day is beyond me.

That is not to mention that your formula for a thematic balance (where you made acceptable points) would be theoretically the same as the one that exists, except that you rearranged the themes for different factions.

Given your short time on the board, and limited work, I'm sorry to say that I and others questioned whether it was appropriate that you were a forum regular.

[Noy]

Oh and I should say my post is not intended to debate that thread. I'm only commenting about what developers thought about it. And I'd like to re-iterate the point that I think you have potential, and if you keep at it, I'm sure you'll make a big contribution to the game.

[Eleazar]

Obviously nobody that matters has that problem.

It is a time honoured tradition for people in superior positions to take underling's ideas and cut the originator out of the process. Sometimes it works. Many times it doesn't. And it invariably annoys the person who contributed the idea in the first place.

Perhaps the powers that be could organise a day pass for you to 'address the board' when one of your ideas is deemed significant enough to be considered by 'the board'. Just remember to address them all as sir and make sure to touch your cap before you address them if you ever get the chance.

Skippy, your suggestions might be more effective if you didn't present them with a extra-large helping of scorn.

Deonjo's thread was (more or less) dead when i moved it. I might have started a new dev thread and linked to the open one, if i had thought of it, but i was under no obligation to do so.

I believe Deonjo's main purpose was to get a change made to Wesnoth, not to continue to preside over a discussion of a relatively simple idea. In moving the thread, i moved his idea further toward becoming real. That's what this forum is about-- improving Wesnoth, not fighting over "ownership" of a GPLed idea.

[Skippy]

I apologise for my tone.

I have appreciated your consistently polite and constructive presence in this forum and, as such, you encourage me to do likewise.

Let me redraft my thoughts on this topic:
The original idea proposer, while not 'owning' the idea, would, nonetheless, be expected to have certain insights into it that would probably be beneficial in its further development. As such, a way for them to participate in its evolution would probably be beneficial for both the project and their own validation (which is one of the compensations in open source projects).

[Darth Fool]

Let me redraft my thoughts on this topic:
The original idea proposer, while not 'owning' the idea, would, nonetheless, be expected to have certain insights into it that would probably be beneficial in its further development. As such, a way for them to participate in its evolution would probably be beneficial for both the project and their own validation (which is one of the compensations in open source projects).

I agree that it would be good to keep the original idea proposer in the loop, although sometimes people think that they have originated an idea that actually has been around for quite some time but has been buried recently. While the forum restructuring has slowed down, it is still quite likely that we will make some more adaptations once we have had a chance to see what works and what doesn't work with the current structure. Developers can promote ideas in many ways, by starting a new link to the original post, by moving the original thread, by promoting it on IRC, or by just doing it. None of these keep the original proposer in the loop. A 'daypass' or 'temp' user group where people whose ideas were promoted could participate on the restricted forum as long as their topic was being discussed would be good, but the mechanics of having such a group in PHPBB is not so easy, so I suspect that we will need to live without it. Of course, it should also be pointed out that anyone who consistently proposes ideas that get promoted is likely to be nominated for forum regular status.

[Thrawn]

Let me redraft my thoughts on this topic:
The original idea proposer, while not 'owning' the idea, would, nonetheless, be expected to have certain insights into it that would probably be beneficial in its further development. As such, a way for them to participate in its evolution would probably be beneficial for both the project and their own validation (which is one of the compensations in open source projects).

I agree that it would be good to keep the original idea proposer in the loop, although sometimes people think that they have originated an idea that actually has been around for quite some time but has been buried recently. While the forum restructuring has slowed down, it is still quite likely that we will make some more adaptations once we have had a chance to see what works and what doesn't work with the current structure. Developers can promote ideas in many ways, by starting a new link to the original post, by moving the original thread, by promoting it on IRC, or by just doing it. None of these keep the original proposer in the loop. A 'daypass' or 'temp' user group where people whose ideas were promoted could participate on the restricted forum as long as their topic was being discussed would be good, but the mechanics of having such a group in PHPBB is not so easy, so I suspect that we will need to live without it. Of course, it should also be pointed out that anyone who consistently proposes ideas that get promoted is likely to be nominated for forum regular status.

You could use the honor code in occasions where a sensical idea was moved--let them post on their feedback on developement of their idea if in a restricted forum, but not in other restricted threads--that would IMO better show the "trustablilty" of such a person--as long as you stipulate in the message along with tiltle the grounds of their acceptance.

[Darth Fool]

A 'daypass' or 'temp' user group where people whose ideas were promoted could participate on the restricted forum as long as their topic was being discussed would be good, but the mechanics of having such a group in PHPBB is not so easy, so I suspect that we will need to live without it.

[Thrawn]

A 'daypass' or 'temp' user group where people whose ideas were promoted could participate on the restricted forum as long as their topic was being discussed would be good, but the mechanics of having such a group in PHPBB is not so easy, so I suspect that we will need to live without it.

Make them a forum regular, but PM them to tell them their restrictions, not create some funky sub-group. Sorry if I wasn't clear...

[Eleazar]

I apologise for my tone.

I have appreciated your consistently polite and constructive presence in this forum and, as such, you encourage me to do likewise.

Let me redraft my thoughts on this topic:
The original idea proposer, while not 'owning' the idea, would, nonetheless, be expected to have certain insights into it that would probably be beneficial in its further development. As such, a way for them to participate in its evolution would probably be beneficial for both the project and their own validation (which is one of the compensations in open source projects).

Skippy, no problem.

And Thrawn: What Darth said.
It would be quite messy to moderate if a number of users were given "trusted' status, but told to use in only on one thread. While all the Devs are Moderators, only a few can change a members status.

[Ranger M]

for some reason I can't post in Art Development any more... Even though I am in the trusted users group.

I remember seeing some trusted users being critocised for spam in the new wose thread, is that the reason for this?

[ivanovic]

The reason is quite simple. We came to the decission that we really have to limit the people discussing in art dev to the people working on the game. From this point of time only contributors are able to post in art dev. We want to reduce the noise in art dev as much as possible to help the artist concentrate on working on the arts and improving them. Some artists did already complain about the noise even in the restriced forum. This is our way to reduce this noise.

[Ranger M]

Ok, although some warning would have been nice

but I don't blame you, some of the comments in art dev, made by trusted users were the same as anybody else would say, defeating the point of segrigating the forums.

[ivanovic]

Hehe, it was never said the the process of restructuing is already finished... ;)
We changed it to a moderate way to see if it works and is enough of restrictions. It looks like it was not since there still was quite a lot of noise. Of course we are still testing to see what the best way to go is. And we don't know when we will say that restructuring is really finnished.

[Eleazar]

It was abrupt, but what would a warning have accomplished?
Nearly everyone _believes_ they have a valuble opinion on art stuff, and few people can be convinced that they don't.

If we find that any user has especially valuable things to say he can be added to the "art contributors."

We're still trying to find the best way to structure the forums, but before this change there was nearly as much "noise" in Neo's recent art threads as there every was in the unregulated days.

[db0]

I don't understand. Isn't the point of being a regular member/trusted user that you are trusted to make insightful comments on threads?
Is the art developing forum only for showing art or actually discussing it, because if only devs are allowed access, the fact that there are only a handful of them would make any attempts at discussion rather weak.

If it is only for showing art to be included in order to see how it will look, then you did the right thing.