Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

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Xalzar
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Xalzar »

Good news!
I've been reviewing information about the Rise of Wesnoth campaign (it's been a while since I last played it), and I can say for certainty that - bar reworks (I have yet to receive more information about how much of the story will change) - Orcs are fully able to operate a fleet of ships independently.
How this have never occurred beyond tRoW I cannot say, but they clearly crossed the ocean the first time with Jevyan, then after his defeat they escaped by ship to the Green Isle to reinforce and finally they return to retrieve the Ruby from the Elves (or so they thought).

(Side note, what exactly did Jevyan could have told the Orcs about the Ruby? Sure they seem mighty interested in that, even if they never really saw its power...)

So, the ship route is clear! No need for shipwrecks to let Orcs colonize the south! I also quite like the prospect of Orc pirates...
Basically at least for the first period after the fall of Southbay the Green Isle has become a real nest of Orcs, who could have dispersed anywhere really (it seems that ocean traversals are not so difficult in this setting... :roll: ).
I can see a situation where the defeated Orcs return with news of the destruction of Jevyan and rally the troops to return and find the Ruby, but a divide is formed between "loyalist" Orcs who agree to hunt for the precious stone and "rebels" who are now free of their master and can do basically what they want. Instead of going back north to fight Elves, they could venture south at any point in time we want (within reason).

(Final side note: long distances and time of travel in tRoW apparently don't matter at all! Hurray for warp travel! :mrgreen: )

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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by lhybrideur »

Do we really need orcs south ? Like, could not there be simply no orcs here ?

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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Edwylm »

lhybrideur wrote:
May 4th, 2020, 3:13 pm
Do we really need orcs south ? Like, could not there be simply no orcs here ?
That is what we are currently trying to figure out. currently if we want to have orcs we need to know how/when they got to the south and some basic info.
i'm 50-50 on the idea of orcs in the south.
Xalzar wrote:
May 4th, 2020, 12:26 pm
Good news!
I've been reviewing information about the Rise of Wesnoth campaign (it's been a while since I last played it), and I can say for certainty that - bar reworks (I have yet to receive more information about how much of the story will change) - Orcs are fully able to operate a fleet of ships independently.
How this have never occurred beyond tRoW I cannot say, but they clearly crossed the ocean the first time with Jevyan, then after his defeat they escaped by ship to the Green Isle to reinforce and finally they return to retrieve the Ruby from the Elves (or so they thought).

So, the ship route is clear! No need for shipwrecks to let Orcs colonize the south! I also quite like the prospect of Orc pirates...
Basically at least for the first period after the fall of Southbay the Green Isle has become a real nest of Orcs, who could have dispersed anywhere really (it seems that ocean traversals are not so difficult in this setting... :roll: ).
I can see a situation where the defeated Orcs return with news of the destruction of Jevyan and rally the troops to return and find the Ruby, but a divide is formed between "loyalist" Orcs who agree to hunt for the precious stone and "rebels" who are now free of their master and can do basically what they want. Instead of going back north to fight Elves, they could venture south at any point in time we want (within reason).
well that in itself brings up questions. where did orcs land first to colonize, rally troops do not mean colonization. I wouldn't be surprised if the far north were the first place that the orcs were to colonize as they can't really get a good foothold in wesnoth. the heart mountains are a ok place to start too.
Another question would be how/why they stop traveling to the green isles and the great continent.

But the main problem is that who controlled the ships? undead sailors/ slaves or other lichs remember one must learn how to work the seas/ships and navigate. I can't see orcs at this point in time being sailors until they start to become free. Also i'm sure there might be other lichs or necromancers that would act as the leaders of Jevyan's armies and not orcs. I would think that the ships were maned by undead which would explain why their shipping stopped at one point until the orcs learned how to sail themselves or they were shipped by other races. from reading the IrdyaCanonSecretLore it sounds like they want orcs to slowly become free but if they were to look for the ruby they would need to send out explorers to try to find it however last known location points to wesnoth so no point in heading to other lands if they know where it might be already.

But I would like to see Jevyan become a specter lich after his main body were to be destroyed and return at some point.

If orcs were to sail to the south than we will also see wesnoth troops and culture. So whats the limiting factor that prevents wesnoth from going to the south all this time? I'm sure haldric would send out explorers to explore this new land by land and sea.

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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by ghype »

lhybrideur wrote:
May 4th, 2020, 3:13 pm
Do we really need orcs south ? Like, could not there be simply no orcs here ?
Not having orcs in the south is a wasted opportunity to display the orcs as a more sophisticated faction as the raider hungry orcs depicted in most campaigns in the north so far. Having friendly orc tribes collaborating with the dunefolk reason to disregard this idea so quickly.
Xalzar wrote:
May 4th, 2020, 12:26 pm
Basically at least for the first period after the fall of Southbay the Green Isle has become a real nest of Orcs, who could have dispersed anywhere really (it seems that ocean traversals are not so difficult in this setting... :roll: ).
This alone is a good set up on how and why orcs might be featured in the south so early.
Xalzar wrote:
May 4th, 2020, 12:26 pm
I can see a situation where the defeated Orcs return with news of the destruction of Jevyan and rally the troops to return and find the Ruby, but a divide is formed between "loyalist" Orcs who agree to hunt for the precious stone and "rebels" who are now free of their master and can do basically what they want. Instead of going back north to fight Elves, they could venture south at any point in time we want (within reason).
Exploring this (or alterations of this) would be a nice UMC campaign.
Edwylm wrote:
May 4th, 2020, 4:57 pm
well that in itself brings up questions. where did orcs land first to colonize, rally troops do not mean colonization. I wouldn't be surprised if the far north were the first place that the orcs were to colonize as they can't really get a good foothold in wesnoth. the heart mountains are a ok place to start too.
Another question would be how/why they stop traveling to the green isles and the great continent.

But the main problem is that who controlled the ships? undead sailors/ slaves or other lichs remember one must learn how to work the seas/ships and navigate. I can't see orcs at this point in time being sailors until they start to become free. Also i'm sure there might be other lichs or necromancers that would act as the leaders of Jevyan's armies and not orcs. I would think that the ships were maned by undead which would explain why their shipping stopped at one point until the orcs learned how to sail themselves or they were shipped by other races.
I know you are very careful and pay attention to deep lore, but I think most of these questions are irrelevant to portray orcs in the south.
As for your main problem, I think Xalzar stated that Orcs are fully capable to sail on their own (which to me seemed to a weird question in the first place).
I mean they have social systems and even a council in the end. Why should they not be capable of sail? (rhetorical questions)
Edwylm wrote:
May 4th, 2020, 4:57 pm
If orcs were to sail to the south than we will also see wesnoth troops and culture. So whats the limiting factor that prevents wesnoth from going to the south all this time? I'm sure haldric would send out explorers to explore this new land by land and sea.
well if you look at wesnoths time line you will find many big reasons. I took 200 years for wesnoth to reach the Golden Age which lasted 150 years. Then comes "The First Dark Age of Wesnoth" , "The Turmoil of Asheviere" , "The Age of Fear" for almost another 300 years. Only 630 YW wesnoth starts to rebuild but 780YW the orcs start to dominate over most other races in the north.

Just as dunefolk were traveling north for trading with wesnoth (independent merchants) during Dunefolks Golden Age which was Wesnoth's Silver Age, I wouldn't find it unpossible that there were sea explorers traveling south the coast or might even dare to explore the deserts. But most likely not as an royal expedition. I also do not find it unlikely to have former wesnothians human refugees in the southern dunefolk states ...

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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Edwylm »

ghype wrote:
May 4th, 2020, 7:13 pm
lhybrideur wrote:
May 4th, 2020, 3:13 pm
Do we really need orcs south ? Like, could not there be simply no orcs here ?
Not having orcs in the south is a wasted opportunity to display the orcs as a more sophisticated faction as the raider hungry orcs depicted in most campaigns in the north so far. Having friendly orc tribes collaborating with the dunefolk reason to disregard this idea so quickly.
Thats a give/take relationship you add in orcs you take away other opportunities for other ideas/races. saurians, drakes and other minor races that are lacking. from in this work it sounds like the dunefolk, saurians, drakes, naga are going to be the main focus where Elves, dwarves, trolls, merfolk, and depending on how we fit orcs in are going to be not as great of impact. The rest of the races are minor. Currently from the suggestions in the south if we want orcs they would have more minor impact compared to that of the north. if orcs were to be added with your idea of "more sophisticated faction as the raider hungry orcs depicted", you need to know what were the changes to make it so.
ghype wrote:
May 4th, 2020, 7:13 pm
Xalzar wrote:
May 4th, 2020, 12:26 pm
Basically at least for the first period after the fall of Southbay the Green Isle has become a real nest of Orcs, who could have dispersed anywhere really (it seems that ocean traversals are not so difficult in this setting... :roll: ).
This alone is a good set up on how and why orcs might be featured in the south so early.
Xalzar wrote:
May 4th, 2020, 12:26 pm
I can see a situation where the defeated Orcs return with news of the destruction of Jevyan and rally the troops to return and find the Ruby, but a divide is formed between "loyalist" Orcs who agree to hunt for the precious stone and "rebels" who are now free of their master and can do basically what they want. Instead of going back north to fight Elves, they could venture south at any point in time we want (within reason).
Exploring this (or alterations of this) would be a nice UMC campaign.
Edwylm wrote:
May 4th, 2020, 4:57 pm
well that in itself brings up questions. where did orcs land first to colonize, rally troops do not mean colonization. I wouldn't be surprised if the far north were the first place that the orcs were to colonize as they can't really get a good foothold in wesnoth. the heart mountains are a ok place to start too.
Another question would be how/why they stop traveling to the green isles and the great continent.

But the main problem is that who controlled the ships? undead sailors/ slaves or other lichs remember one must learn how to work the seas/ships and navigate. I can't see orcs at this point in time being sailors until they start to become free. Also i'm sure there might be other lichs or necromancers that would act as the leaders of Jevyan's armies and not orcs. I would think that the ships were maned by undead which would explain why their shipping stopped at one point until the orcs learned how to sail themselves or they were shipped by other races.
I know you are very careful and pay attention to deep lore, but I think most of these questions are irrelevant to portray orcs in the south.
As for your main problem, I think Xalzar stated that Orcs are fully capable to sail on their own (which to me seemed to a weird question in the first place).
I mean they have social systems and even a council in the end. Why should they not be capable of sail? (rhetorical questions)
If you have orcs arriving in the south based on Xalzar suggestions than the idea of "Not having orcs in the south is a wasted opportunity to display the orcs as a more sophisticated faction as the raider hungry orcs depicted in most campaigns in the north so far." will not work. Their arrival would be the exact same and the outcome would be parallel to the north. only difference would be how to adapt to the climate and events(events that might shift culture or orc ideals). Is it good or bad to have it parallel the north depends on how you want them. There are a lot of factors concerning current mainline lore, having rewriting lore, and suggested lore that might be added. If IrdyaCanonSecretLore is used than Orcs do not have a much advanced culture around before or after Jevyan until around heir to the throne (it can change i'm just using what there is so far).
I can not see orcs rebelling when they hear Jevyan is dead, there would be a power struggle for a new overlord probably unless Jevyan's commanders are still in charge which would explain why the orcs are still going after the ruby. if there was a rebellion than we would see more friendly orcs in mainline than what we really have and orcs wouldn't be landing in wesnoth looking for the stone if they are fighting a civil war. it creates a lot of issues if we do not have the rewrite. However if they did rebel they wouldn't openly do so until they land and secured an area that they be able to defeat the larger pro-Jevyan forces and other races. Another option is they dislike Jevyan but still had to fallow the other orcs so they all don't die.

but remember orcs still have to land on the drake island to get supplies which by after haldric's landing will likely be a heavily orc guarded resupply spot. probably causing the rest of the drakes to flee. Even than the island is sinking so there it is likely a number of years the orcs would be cut off from the green isles.
ghype wrote:
May 4th, 2020, 7:13 pm
I mean they have social systems and even a council in the end. Why should they not be capable of sail?
I'm not saying that its impossible. hell in the son of the black eye the orcs have a harbor city, even the orcish shamans and the council BUT those came hundreds of years after the rise of wesnoth. I'm talking about the rise of wesnoth era, orcs didn't have the complex social system of Black eye and probably the knowledge. If orcs were able to sail than why were there no orcs or even ships blocking Southbay and other ports (in southbay it can be hinted that the orc leader on the island was/is to represent a minor navel force as one can only do so much in a game. But its debatable to what extent they could have just used row boats)

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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Pentarctagon »

Is this defining the Dunefolk, or (re)defining an entire set of the existing races in a different location?
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by lhybrideur »

Both ?

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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

Edwylm wrote:
May 9th, 2020, 5:02 am
Thats a give/take relationship you add in orcs you take away other opportunities for other ideas/races. saurians, drakes and other minor races that are lacking. from in this work it sounds like the dunefolk, saurians, drakes, naga are going to be the main focus where Elves, dwarves, trolls, merfolk, and depending on how we fit orcs in are going to be not as great of impact. The rest of the races are minor. Currently from the suggestions in the south if we want orcs they would have more minor impact compared to that of the north. if orcs were to be added with your idea of "more sophisticated faction as the raider hungry orcs depicted", you need to know what were the changes to make it so.
Perhaps if there were orcs only on Palmiya, that might satisfy this; they're present but not a major influence…
Pentarctagon wrote:
May 9th, 2020, 5:06 pm
Is this defining the Dunefolk, or (re)defining an entire set of the existing races in a different location?
I think you could argue that they're almost the same thing. The dunefolk are defined at least in part by their interactions with other races around them.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Pentarctagon »

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
May 11th, 2020, 11:30 pm
Pentarctagon wrote:
May 9th, 2020, 5:06 pm
Is this defining the Dunefolk, or (re)defining an entire set of the existing races in a different location?
I think you could argue that they're almost the same thing. The dunefolk are defined at least in part by their interactions with other races around them.
While true, I guess what I'm really asking is whether having interactions with so many different races is actually necessary. Giving time and detail to lesser used races is good, but do there really need to be Southern Orcs? There don't have to be elves because there's a forest, or dwarves because there's mountains, either.

Speaking practically as well for example, if you're going to have southern jungle elves in an eventual Dunefolk campaign, then you'll need to create additional unit art for them, since it wouldn't make sense to use the same sprites for northern forest elves and southern jungle elves.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Xalzar »

It's amusing really that we have come full circle and we're now discussing the very basic questions... :lol:
No really, IMO we ran away too fast in the first pages, so it's good we stop a moment to answer these before restarting the brainstorming.

About what races could be in the south, Saurians and Nagas are a given, since their relevance in the north is quite minimale and it make sense for their biology.
Drakes share a similar fate in the north, they really need it.
Elves, Dwarves and Trolls are the oldest races in the Great Continent, I can see them easily popping out anywhere (in habitats where it makes sense ofc) since they had time to spread around (maybe with regional differences). That said, not every peak or tree belongs to them, so they could be a bit reigned in if we want.
Ogres speak more "northern" to me, but we really don't know anything about them so they really could fit anywhere.
Undead follow the practioners of necromancy, so it's more difficult to define; unless they are "naturally born" undead.

Orcs are more problematic. Clearly they migrate a lot, after all they managed to colonize most of the Northlands and they are present all around the borders of the kingdom of Wesnoth throughout most of its history.
There's then the question of their seamanship, and I collected more evidences in addition to my earlier speculations:
- in tRoW Haldric expects Orcs to return after their defeat, that's the whole reason for the misdirection plan;
- still in tRoW Haldric decides to found its kingdom inland, away from the coast (to avoid the Orcs coming from the sea);
- in AoI it is said that after their previous defeat Orcs were too few and believed to be a myth, so either they reproduced a lot in 6 years (possible) or another wave came from the Green Isle (this is the version supported in the Timeline page);
- still in AoI, the objective of the Elves in that campaign is to push them back north whence they came, so we can guess that they have already migrated northwards in those 6 years and built fortresses or that they landed there by ship (most probable, I can see them reusing the wood from the ships to build the first encampments, before starting to cut down the trees from the Elves' forests).
Given those evidences, I can see all the western parts of the Great Continent (which are coincidental to all the regions we actually use in mainline campaigns) to be possible sites of Orcish landings. Southlands included, Palmyia and surrounding regions being a prime spot.
Other possible issues remain:
- an explanation for the lack of Orc "pirates" in campaigns (maybe they mainly use boats to migrate and not in war and raids?);
- a reason for the absolute absence of other known landings from the Green Isle beyond the two mentioned (why no more invasions from the sea?);
- given the position of the Green Isle (north-west), could the Southlands be out of reach of the Orcish ships?
- and the one which some of you are having right now: why do we need Southern Orcs?
Is it to paint them as capable of being civilized? Done in SotBE.
Is it to change their dynamics with humans (allies and not enemies)? Asheviere's hired Orcs. Also, hinted at the end of SotBE when Orcs enter in the Northern Alliance with humans amongst other races, even after they warred against some northern human kingdoms.
It is needed for the Dunefolk dynamics? Why and why Orcs and not another race? The answers to these questions I believe should come from the new Dunefolk lore team.

TL;DR: all other races make sense in the south; Orcs have possible lore explanations to be there (unless the lore rework modifies something) if we want them there. So let's see if their role is important or could be scrapped.

My opinion: the Lore Rework is like a Damocle's Sword on this sort of topics; I think matters should be more defined there to see what really should we be doing. But I have not seen any movement from that direction since last month, and no input from people working there. :hmm:
My fear is that anything that comes up from this topic could be swiftly nullified by under-the-hood, no-feedback-given modifications that we know nothing of. :augh:

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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

Pentarctagon wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 12:38 am
While true, I guess what I'm really asking is whether having interactions with so many different races is actually necessary. Giving time and detail to lesser used races is good, but do there really need to be Southern Orcs? There don't have to be elves because there's a forest, or dwarves because there's mountains, either.

Speaking practically as well for example, if you're going to have southern jungle elves in an eventual Dunefolk campaign, then you'll need to create additional unit art for them, since it wouldn't make sense to use the same sprites for northern forest elves and southern jungle elves.
Correct. There doesn't have to be elves just because there's a forest (but woses are a different matter in my opinion). We don't have to have orcs, and I still prefer not to. We don't have to have dwarves and trolls, sure, but by adding them in the Kesh mountains we can bring out an alliance rarely seen in the north – dwarves and trolls working together. We don't have to have saurians and drakes, but they are also somewhat neglected races, so it's nice to add some stuff to their lore.

I think it would be fine to use the same sprites for northern forest elves and southern jungle elves, though. They might not be a perfect fit for a jungle elf, but I think they are close enough.

The one new unit art that I do think we need is jungle variants for all three wose units (four if you include the shaman).
Xalzar wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 10:38 am
Ogres speak more "northern" to me, but we really don't know anything about them so they really could fit anywhere.
Ogres are probably the most neglected sapient race in the game, so whether or not they're plopped down in the south, they need something.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by ghype »

Regarding the Orcs I can see that it is clearly unclear what role should play in south if at all. I do think however, that their presence on Palmiya is not far from being realistic. I would not oppose restricting Orcs only to Palmiya with a lesser of presence on the southern mainland. If there were Orcs on the southland than only tribes, no established cities, armies etc. They could be wandering tribes, friendly or hostile, but not enough to call them a nominal presence on the mainland.

Reason for that could just really simply be that the drylands are not as fertile in the north, not enough places to raid in the north in most considerable other races on the mainland, western coasts and waters that just make a migration to the mainland really dangerous even for orcs.
Pentarctagon wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 12:38 am
Speaking practically as well for example, if you're going to have southern jungle elves in an eventual Dunefolk campaign, then you'll need to create additional unit art for them, since it wouldn't make sense to use the same sprites for northern forest elves and southern jungle elves.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
May 13th, 2020, 11:24 pm
I think it would be fine to use the same sprites for northern forest elves and southern jungle elves, though. They might not be a perfect fit for a jungle elf, but I think they are close enough.
That is something of work in progress. I already made concept art for jungle wose/elves variations. Just not yet published them.

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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Tom_Of_Wesnoth »

I think there's probably a case for not having orcs in the south, purely because they're already so prominently featured across so many campaigns - by leaving them out of the south, we can give other factions a chance to shine, drakes in particular.

With that said, though, pirate orcs based on Palmiya could be quite interesting if handled well. Berber pirates could be a good source of inspiration.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by AOW »

Drakes... It's hard for me to imagine that creatures that evolved wings would not consider expanding their territory.

The southern orcs can be the exiles in the original tribal fights, the survivors of the defeated tribes, or the mercenary teams fighting for anyone but didn't stick to the land and sea.(they hire humans to sail, or capture humans to sail, don't forget the fire and crossbow in their hands!)

The discussion of elves, dwarves and trolls sounds mature. if these racial differences can bring benefits to the game.
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