Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

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Edwylm
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Edwylm »

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 11:43 pm
Edwylm wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 12:17 am
I can see that however having the elves be exterminated would cause issues and there be 0 chances of elf and saurian friendship.
I don't think that needs to be true. Just because their distant ancestors killed each other doesn't mean they can't get along now.
Edwylm wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 12:17 am
Which from what I see from both CM and ghype+ community that south should have good relations with elves and Saurians. Your idea does revolve around the current lore so it does make sense.
This doesn't necessarily contradict the 3-way war idea. The friendly elf-saurian relations are in the Impassable Jungle, but a Palmiya-based war wouldn't even go near there. It would be the saurians of the northwestern marshes and the elves of the southwestern jungle.
Well when you consider that exterminated would include women and children, typically when extermination happens those on the receiving end will hold that grudge and if the Impassable Jungle elves heard or they know of relatives/loved ones where there at the time things would go bitter. Unless the Saurians are known to be slaves to the drakes,then there wouldn't be much hostile towards the Saurians and the anger would be towards the drakes.

However, if we were to go down the elves were on the Palmiya i would suggest this.
"Elves lived on the island until they were forced to abandoned their homes for a safer place (could have them exterminated). Elves fled to the south forest where they revolve the idea to retake the island but do to few in numbers can't rage war(remove this part if exterminated). years later the evles encounter the dunefolk where the elves exchange trade and hire mercenaries/merchants to retrieve artifacts along with giving them rights to take resources. (this would fix dunefolk logistics problems concerning wood that they need to build ships along with gold to fund supplies and troops). now taking a harbor and holding it is tricky you need a large first invasion for that in order to build defenses without being pushed back and being under attack when building. It be likely that the dunefolk will be on defensive terms and only sending out expeditions to ruins and to gather resources in order to

The battles between orcs and drakes would likely be over half of the battles composed of the 3 way war. could have some orc tribes being enslaved. (However it be interesting since both orcs and drakes are warlike to have some kind of "sacrifice" tournament. This would be areas where drakes have subjugated orcs, where the strongest drakes vs strongest orcs would take place. The orcs that best the drakes would ensure their tribe doesn't get attacked for as long as that orc lives (or until next sacrifice year). And if the orc loses, their tribe gets attacked as a sacrifice. The drakes might do this to keep orc population down, to maintain their terror or for entertainment. Just a thought that might but fun to work with.)

Drakes from Palmiya could have enslaved Saurians and other races. though the Saurians would likely be the preferable for slave fighters as drakes can raid and bring back the eggs. Basically giving them the ability to shape their new slaves to what their needs. Other races could be for sport treatment..."

However i'm still not a fan of having a 3 way war on Palmiya because there are too many factors that would end the war if its supposed to be a long term thing.
1. if some kind of disaster be it plague, volcano erupting, tsunami, cyclone. Dunefolk would be the most affected as they be more exposed and limited. It be mostly a orc vs drakes more than half of the time.
2. a decisive battle/outsmarting your enemies or one side receiving aid can easily tip the balance. If you want this war to last its likely going to be a lot of skirmishing and no major battles. You might have 1 big battle over a distance of time to avoid crippling their military power.
3. This leaves the drakes having less chances to go on raids outside of Palmiya with most raids would be on Saurians on the mainland to get more slaves to fight their war on Palmiya.
4. what about the drakes below the dune worms/jinn territory Is it possible those drakes will help the drakes on Palmiya? If so thats another problem as it would make ships more vulnerable to attacks when traveling in bay.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by ghype »

Xalzar wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 11:31 pm
About Orcs in the west, I'm still not quite convinced by the motive of their presence there. If they really should be there, could we come up with a credible explanation?
These are the last noted events in Wesnoth Timeline
Timeline Form Wesnoth Wiki

843 YW
  • Half of the Great Council is treacherously slain by the allied human forces and orcish unity disintegrates. Faced with the extermination of all the orcs on the Great Continent, Kapou’e forcibly asserts his control over the orcish territories and defeats the enemy forces. The Northern Alliance arrives on the scene in time for the final battle and helps Kapou’e defeat the forces of the northern earldoms, who had broken the treaty. Kapou’e then assumes the position of Sovereign over the northern tribes, and his rule ushers in an unprecedented era of unity and prosperity for the orcs.
  • After 843: Portions of Kapou'e's army act as mercenaries in foreign struggles with other races which keeps them from attacking their nearest neighbors.
852 YW
  • Kapou’e repels a large elvish invasion.
858 YW
  • The humans once again stage an invasion but prove to be no match for the united orcish forces under the leadership of Kapou’e. Son of the Black Eye ends.
here I want to focus on this ...

  • "After 843: Portions of Kapou'e's army act as mercenaries in foreign struggles with other races which keeps them from attacking their nearest neighbors."


If that is not a premise for the orcs in the south and a references to factions that could be considered Dunefolk, then I don't know.
Xalzar wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 11:31 pm
However I can see if the orcs were washed ashore and were not noticed as seeing that drakes live on the Volcano they be able to see far and see any ships coming. And if the drakes notice their prey is becoming more sparse the drakes will take action or see an intruder and kill them.
As for the drakes on Palmiya, maybe the volcano on palmiya is just seen as a breeding place and the drakes are not so territorial about that cause nobody is gonna take away their volcano anyway. Note as well, that Palmiya is not small and full of jungle. A co-existence of drakes, saurians and orcs seems possible. The orcs and saurians AND drakes don't have to be at war all the time, it doesn't exclude conflicts depending on spot we are on the time line (for example after 850yw you might see more orcs as humans and elves failed their invasions against them, so orcs might be rumouring more on the continent meaning that Palmiya might be getting a fluxus of orc waves which might not want to be peacefull and chaos breaks out. I could imagine that then the drakes and saurians might be fighting together against orcs)

That being said, I see that instead of saurians it is discussed to have elves/woses instead of saurians. I am ok with that too.
Edwylm wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 2:29 pm
What i mean by current lore is lore not involving the rewriting. Which like to remind that a rewriting/reworking is currently underway and everything is subjected to change but working out some of the locations and reasons with help in reworking the lore. We are able to mold the lore currently to work with what we want to go with. I'm just giving suggestions as I love working and reading lore more than the fine details of story dialogues. I wish i could help further the rewrite but all I can only give is feedback and suggestions.
As for the drakes on Palmiya, maybe the volcano on palmiya is just seen as a breeding place and the drakes are not so territorial about that cause nobody is gonna take away their volcano anyway. Note as well, that Palmiya is not small and full of jungle. A co-existence of drakes, saurians and orcs seems possible. The orcs and saurians AND drakes don't have to be at war all the time, it doesn't exclude conflicts depending on spot we are on the time line (for example after 850yw you might see more orcs as humans and elves failed their invasions against them, so orcs might be rumouring more on the continent meaning that Palmiya might be getting a fluxus of orc waves which might not want to be peacefull and chaos breaks out. I could imagine that then the drakes and saurians might be fighting together against orcs)
Edwylm wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 2:29 pm
What i mean by current lore is lore not involving the rewriting. Which like to remind that a rewriting/reworking is currently underway and everything is subjected to change but working out some of the locations and reasons with help in reworking the lore. We are able to mold the lore currently to work with what we want to go with. I'm just giving suggestions as I love working and reading lore more than the fine details of story dialogues. I wish i could help further the rewrite but all I can only give is feedback and suggestions.
the current rework for mainline lore is a public thing and can be read in the developers discussion. beware that it is spoiling the entire rework.
Edwylm wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 4:14 am
However, if we were to go down the elves were on the Palmiya i would suggest this.
"Elves lived on the island until they were forced to abandoned their homes for a safer place (could have them exterminated). Elves fled to the south forest where they revolve the idea to retake the island but do to few in numbers can't rage war(remove this part if exterminated). years later the evles encounter the dunefolk where the elves exchange trade and hire mercenaries/merchants to retrieve artifacts along with giving them rights to take resources. (this would fix dunefolk logistics problems concerning wood that they need to build ships along with gold to fund supplies and troops).
I am ok with that if we go the way that elves used to be on the island but or not any more in a nominal presence. All that might be left are woses (as they cannot cross waters I suppose and maybe few elves in hiding). I am ok with the relation ship between the elves and dunefolk you describe as it gives them a lot of background, without the elves the dunefolk might have not heard of the island.
Edwylm wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 4:14 am
now taking a harbor and holding it is tricky you need a large first invasion for that in order to build defenses without being pushed back and being under attack when building. It be likely that the dunefolk will be on defensive terms and only sending out expeditions to ruins and to gather resources in order to ...
I do no think think that elves would or could hire a the dunefolk to invade an island. I am not sure wether the dunefolk willingly would do. Its not like the dunefolk/dwarfs background which goes back a long time as described in the the lore sections. However, I do think that its possible that the elves hired them to retreat object and etc. It would fit the mercenary lifestyle of the dunefolks and nagas. During these expeditions, bigger cities could have getting involved when they realised there are valuable things on the island that could be traded in (such as spices or minerals). Hence the first dunefolk colonies happened there.
Edwylm wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 4:14 am
However i'm still not a fan of having a 3 way war on Palmiya because there are too many factors that would end the war if its supposed to be a long term thing.
I too mentioned a way where orcs and drakes could live with each other without getting in each others territory. First we exclude the saurians because as Celtic said, there is no reason for the saurians to be on that island (unless they have ships but i don want to get into that). Now say the island was a flourishing jungle and elves inhabited it in ancient times. Then at some point drakes found their way from morogor to Palmiya. But since they settled in the peaks and around the volcano, the elves and drakes found a way to not bother each other. At some point orc ships arrived from north (what ever may be the reason) and the orcs were just too overpowering and un expected which made the elves flee the island. ... After the dunefolk were sent to the island, they managed to build one or two smaller colonies around the island (from east). Once the orcs got notice of that, they are getting in dispute... bla bla bla ... this could be a plot for a campaign or what ever.
Edwylm wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 4:14 am
The battles between orcs and drakes would likely be over half of the battles composed of the 3 way war. could have some orc tribes being enslaved. (However it be interesting since both orcs and drakes are warlike to have some kind of "sacrifice" tournament. This would be areas where drakes have subjugated orcs, where the strongest drakes vs strongest orcs would take place. The orcs that best the drakes would ensure their tribe doesn't get attacked for as long as that orc lives (or until next sacrifice year). And if the orc loses, their tribe gets attacked as a sacrifice. The drakes might do this to keep orc population down, to maintain their terror or for entertainment. Just a thought that might but fun to work with.)

Drakes from Palmiya could have enslaved Saurians and other races. though the Saurians would likely be the preferable for slave fighters as drakes can raid and bring back the eggs. Basically giving them the ability to shape their new slaves to what their needs. Other races could be for sport treatment..."
Battles would likely to not happen in that extend for the same reason why elves and drakes have no bigger conflicts to that extend. Note that I am not saying that there can't be big conflicts depending on the time line between orcs/drakes or before that elves/drakes. Similar for the dunefolks once they set up colonies. Dunefolk definetly will be in conflict with orcs ones they get noticed and drakes can either decide to attack both of them, route for a side or not do anythign ....
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Xalzar
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Xalzar »

Here I want to focus on this ... :whistle:
ghype wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 6:17 am
  • "After 843: Portions of Kapou'e's army act as mercenaries in foreign struggles with other races which keeps them from attacking their nearest neighbors."
So
ghype wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 6:17 am
If that is not a premise for the orcs in the south and a references to factions that could be considered Dunefolk, then I don't know.
Nope, that's not what it is implied. Kapou'e is in the Far North, his neighbours being in the same Far North, and I think Kapou'e wouldn't send mercenaries in the Deep South while surrounded by potential enemies in the Far North.
Have I already said Far North? :hmm: ... :shock: ... :lol:

So unless Kapou'e has a portal in his pocket, I cannot see how he could send a mercenary force sizeable enough to start a new Orc civilisation in the South.

Also, about the timeline: I thought the Duneworms and the hostilities of the northern deserts were the specific reason of scarce/no contacts between the Dunefolk and Wesnoth early in the timeline, and that we were developing the Southlands story more like "in parallel" to the northern one.
You are saying that the Southlands story really only takes off when the northern one is basically finished? Don't quite like that prospect. It restricts heavily the possibilities for UMCs.
ghype wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 6:17 am
Xalzar wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 11:31 pm
However I can see if the orcs were washed ashore and were not noticed as seeing that drakes live on the Volcano they be able to see far and see any ships coming. And if the drakes notice their prey is becoming more sparse the drakes will take action or see an intruder and kill them.
Misquote.
ghype wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 6:17 am
Edwylm wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 2:29 pm
What i mean by current lore is lore not involving the rewriting. Which like to remind that a rewriting/reworking is currently underway and everything is subjected to change but working out some of the locations and reasons with help in reworking the lore. We are able to mold the lore currently to work with what we want to go with. I'm just giving suggestions as I love working and reading lore more than the fine details of story dialogues. I wish i could help further the rewrite but all I can only give is feedback and suggestions.
the current rework for mainline lore is a public thing and can be read in the developers discussion. beware that it is spoiling the entire rework.
Unless it is developing behind closed doors, the rewriting was a proposal, which was just starting being discussed (and not everyone was in agreement with that), and which stopped nearly 6 months ago without anything real done. The link which keeps floating about is useless, I've read it at the time and reread it now, there are only proposals. Am I missing something?
Edwylm wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 4:14 am
(However it be interesting since both orcs and drakes are warlike to have some kind of "sacrifice" tournament. This would be areas where drakes have subjugated orcs, where the strongest drakes vs strongest orcs would take place. The orcs that best the drakes would ensure their tribe doesn't get attacked for as long as that orc lives (or until next sacrifice year). And if the orc loses, their tribe gets attacked as a sacrifice. The drakes might do this to keep orc population down, to maintain their terror or for entertainment. Just a thought that might but fun to work with.)
I like this unprecedented relationship between two war-like races. I can see cases where before a Drake raid, the Drake "champion" challenges an Orc "champion" and if the Drakes lose the duel they leave the Orc tribe alone.

Far North
:mrgreen:
No but seriously, since at this point it is ingrained in everyone that Orcs should be there, I'll start thinking more heavily on reasonable reasons for Orcs to arrive in sufficient number in the Southlands. None of the stories proposed until now have convinced me. :hmm: :doh:
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by ghype »

Xalzar wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 9:08 am
ghype wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 6:17 am

Timeline Form Wesnoth Wiki:

843 YW
  • Half of the Great Council is treacherously slain by the allied human forces and orcish unity disintegrates. Faced with the extermination of all the orcs on the Great Continent, Kapou’e forcibly asserts his control over the orcish territories and defeats the enemy forces. The Northern Alliance arrives on the scene in time for the final battle and helps Kapou’e defeat the forces of the northern earldoms, who had broken the treaty. Kapou’e then assumes the position of Sovereign over the northern tribes, and his rule ushers in an unprecedented era of unity and prosperity for the orcs.
  • After 843: Portions of Kapou'e's army act as mercenaries in foreign struggles with other races which keeps them from attacking their nearest neighbors.
852 YW
  • Kapou’e repels a large elvish invasion.
858 YW
  • The humans once again stage an invasion but prove to be no match for the united orcish forces under the leadership of Kapou’e. Son of the Black Eye ends.
Lets look at this a bit closely:
  • 843 YW: Kapou’e then assumes the position of Sovereign over the northern tribes, and his rule ushers in an unprecedented era of unity and prosperity for the orcs.
  • 858 YW: The humans once again stage an invasion but prove to be no match for the united orcish forces
Just alone these two lines clarify that orcs are the predominant race in wesnoth at that time and if the humans once again couldn't stop them, it would take some time until some one could. It would only make sense that the orcs either expand or just simply start to explore more terrain. They raided the entire north, then they would start moving south.
Some of them might even raid the coast lines via ships to move faster. Those eventually would arrive at Palmiya ... And form Palmiya onto the southern Mainland. I am not talking about everything happen at the same time, but this progress could take place years maybe decades.
  • After 843: Portions of Kapou'e's army act as mercenaries in foreign struggles with other races which keeps them from attacking their nearest neighbors.
Considering too that the canon time line for the north ends with 858 YW, it would absolutely no hustle to add a line saying that the orcs started to move south of something a like to support this.
Xalzar wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 9:08 am
Also, about the timeline: I thought the Duneworms and the hostilities of the northern deserts were the specific reason of scarce/no contacts between the Dunefolk and Wesnoth early in the timeline, and that we were developing the Southlands story more like "in parallel" to the northern one.
Yes, exactly. If orcs were (or any other northern factions) were to interfere with the south then it would have to be via ships and for that they would have to pass Palmiya. Exceptions probably would be saurians, drakes or undead, they could cross the desert. The orcs comming south with ships also do not have to be aggressive, maybe its a bunch of tribes that wanted to emigrate or just discover new lands to settle. The new lore for orcs makes them to be more sentient as before. And we already said some orcs are so peace-full that they ally with dunefolks.

Similar on how dunefolks only way up to trade with wesnoth would be via ships.
Xalzar wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 9:08 am
You are saying that the Southlands story really only takes off when the northern one is basically finished? Don't quite like that prospect. It restricts heavily the possibilities for UMCs.
Not really. I suppose I am saying the orcs might not be featured earlier than 850yw. Maybe even earlier if we wanted to.
Southern Part will have mostly its own time line. After 850YW could be the first time we are having intertwining timelines. I see no reason why not to.


Xalzar wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 9:08 am
ghype wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 6:17 am
the current rework for mainline lore is a public thing and can be read in the developers discussion. beware that it is spoiling the entire rework.
Unless it is developing behind closed doors, the rewriting was a proposal, which was just starting being discussed (and not everyone was in agreement with that), and which stopped nearly 6 months ago without anything real done. The link which keeps floating about is useless, I've read it at the time and reread it now, there are only proposals. Am I missing something?
The campaigns are being reworked (or at least worked on). And the lore behind every race is also being greatly improved by Yumi. We (we as in we here in the threads) are trying to consolidate Dunefolks lore. There are some links on the wiki talking about these things ... though it's for development purposes, but publicly available. Yumi suggested the a restructure of the mainline campaigns and the one things some devs were not sure was wether removing the old continent was a good idea or not... I am not certain what will happen regarding that, however it wont matter for the dunefolk.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

Edwylm wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 4:14 am
Well when you consider that exterminated would include women and children, typically when extermination happens those on the receiving end will hold that grudge
Yes, of course. But how long will they hold that grudge? It's not impossible for it to be passed down from generation to generation, but it could also easily fade after just a few generations. It's not these saurians (or whatever race) who did something horrible, it's their ancestors.
Edwylm wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 4:14 am
if the Impassable Jungle elves heard or they know of relatives/loved ones where there at the time things would go bitter.
I think it's likely that there's fairly limited communication between the two jungles. They'd certainly know of each other's presence, maybe there'd be travellers between them every so often, and perhaps some news would travel, but I doubt many in the Impassable Jungle would know everything that happened over in the western jungle.
Edwylm wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 4:14 am
However i'm still not a fan of having a 3 way war on Palmiya because there are too many factors that would end the war if its supposed to be a long term thing.
We're not (or at least shouldn't be) describing the way relations are over the whole course of history. I assume we're describing an average. If we go with three-way conflict, what that means is that the three factions disagree on a lot of things, and conflicts frequently break out between them. It doesn't necessarily mean there's an ongoing war – the reasons any of the three sides are fighting could fluctuate wildly.
Edwylm wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 4:14 am
1. if some kind of disaster be it plague, volcano erupting, tsunami, cyclone. Dunefolk would be the most affected as they be more exposed and limited. It be mostly a orc vs drakes more than half of the time.
If there was a volcano, I think the drakes would take the worst of it, given that they literally live in a volcano. There may not be a lot of lives lost 9after all, they can fly), but they'd likely lose most of their homes. If it was a tsunami or cyclone, the orcs, drakes, and nagas would probably be hit the worst. The dunefolk might be affected too since many of their cities are coastal. Plague is more complicated, as the species involved are quite different so a disease affecting one species might not affect others.
Edwylm wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 4:14 am
2. a decisive battle/outsmarting your enemies or one side receiving aid can easily tip the balance. If you want this war to last its likely going to be a lot of skirmishing and no major battles. You might have 1 big battle over a distance of time to avoid crippling their military power.
So don't have a lasting war. Don't think of it as one ongoing war. Think of it as periods of war interspersed with periods of mostly peace. Though the factions remain largely the same, the reasons for each war will vary. There will probably be some common threads among them, though
Edwylm wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 4:14 am
3. This leaves the drakes having less chances to go on raids outside of Palmiya with most raids would be on Saurians on the mainland to get more slaves to fight their war on Palmiya.
Exactly when did we decide the drakes were slave-keepers, anyway?
Edwylm wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 4:14 am
4. what about the drakes below the dune worms/jinn territory Is it possible those drakes will help the drakes on Palmiya? If so thats another problem as it would make ships more vulnerable to attacks when traveling in bay.
I think it's likely that different tribes of drakes get along sometimes but not always.
ghype wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 6:17 am
here I want to focus on this ...

  • "After 843: Portions of Kapou'e's army act as mercenaries in foreign struggles with other races which keeps them from attacking their nearest neighbors."


If that is not a premise for the orcs in the south and a references to factions that could be considered Dunefolk, then I don't know.
Yeah, I dunno for sure… but the northern lands of the orcs are almost as far from Weldyn as the dunefolk domains are, so it would make more sense to take this as a reference to the Kingdom of Wesnoth in my opinion.

ghype wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 6:17 am
I too mentioned a way where orcs and drakes could live with each other without getting in each others territory. First we exclude the saurians because as Celtic said, there is no reason for the saurians to be on that island (unless they have ships but i don want to get into that). Now say the island was a flourishing jungle and elves inhabited it in ancient times. Then at some point drakes found their way from morogor to Palmiya. But since they settled in the peaks and around the volcano, the elves and drakes found a way to not bother each other. At some point orc ships arrived from north (what ever may be the reason) and the orcs were just too overpowering and un expected which made the elves flee the island. ... After the dunefolk were sent to the island, they managed to build one or two smaller colonies around the island (from east). Once the orcs got notice of that, they are getting in dispute... bla bla bla ... this could be a plot for a campaign or what ever.
First, I want to point out that the map shows Palmiya is a mountain. I think mountains and jungle wouldn't really mix? (Mountains and forest is fine, just that the forest probably wouldn't really qualify as a jungle.) If you want the island to be lower and more forested, perhaps the map should be changed to reflect that.

It's the mountainous nature of the map that makes it seem like the saurians wouldn't find it a desirable place to live. For elves though, that's not such a limiting factor, as forests can grow on mountainsides.

I think the exact details of how conflict plays out on Palmiya is out of scope. That's something for a campaign. We just need to know why each race is there and, if they left, why they did so. This includes elves (if they were there), saurians (if they were there), drakes, orcs, and dunefolk. We don't need to establish how exactly they got there. We don't need to establish that those drakes came specifically from Morogor, or that the orcs came specifically from the north and why they did so. What matters is why they chose to settle on Palmiya.

So, assuming we're going with a scenario where elves lived there originally but left at some point, we need to answer the following questions:
  • Why did the drakes settle on Palmiya? (For me, this is the only one with an obvious answer – drakes like volcanoes for whatever reason.)
  • Why did the elves leave Palmiya?
  • Why did the orcs choose to settle on Palmiya instead of on the mainland?
  • If the dunefolk have outposts, colonies, settlements, or any presence there, what do they see in it? There must be a reason for them to establish a presence.
Xalzar wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 9:08 am
Edwylm wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 4:14 am
(However it be interesting since both orcs and drakes are warlike to have some kind of "sacrifice" tournament. This would be areas where drakes have subjugated orcs, where the strongest drakes vs strongest orcs would take place. The orcs that best the drakes would ensure their tribe doesn't get attacked for as long as that orc lives (or until next sacrifice year). And if the orc loses, their tribe gets attacked as a sacrifice. The drakes might do this to keep orc population down, to maintain their terror or for entertainment. Just a thought that might but fun to work with.)
I like this unprecedented relationship between two war-like races. I can see cases where before a Drake raid, the Drake "champion" challenges an Orc "champion" and if the Drakes lose the duel they leave the Orc tribe alone.
If you're thinking of the drakes and the orcs as "two war-like races", then I don't think Edwylm's idea makes any sense – it paints a picture of orcs subjugated by drakes, after all.
Xalzar wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 9:08 am
No but seriously, since at this point it is ingrained in everyone that Orcs should be there, I'll start thinking more heavily on reasonable reasons for Orcs to arrive in sufficient number in the Southlands. None of the stories proposed until now have convinced me. :hmm: :doh:
I think "sufficient numbers" is fairly small though, so it could easily just be one ship that got lost or something.
ghype wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 10:14 am
  • 843 YW: Kapou’e then assumes the position of Sovereign over the northern tribes, and his rule ushers in an unprecedented era of unity and prosperity for the orcs.
  • 858 YW: The humans once again stage an invasion but prove to be no match for the united orcish forces
Just alone these two lines clarify that orcs are the predominant race in wesnoth at that time and if the humans once again couldn't stop them, it would take some time until some one could. It would only make sense that the orcs either expand or just simply start to explore more terrain. They raided the entire north, then they would start moving south.
Some of them might even raid the coast lines via ships to move faster. Those eventually would arrive at Palmiya ... And form Palmiya onto the southern Mainland. I am not talking about everything happen at the same time, but this progress could take place years maybe decades.
There are two problems with this idea.

First, in order to get to Palmiya, they need to work their way through or around the entire Wesnoth Kingdom. If they travel by sea (which would be essential to explain the Palmiya idea - orcs travelling around Wesnoth by land would've ended up settling east of the Kesh mountains), then either they need to content with Elensefar and possibly the merfolk, or they need to sail far from land and risk getting lost. And they don't even know that there's anything to find there! That doesn't preclude them going obviously (explorers are a thing), but it certainly precludes a major expedition.

The second problem is that it actually doesn't appear to serve the intended goal. People have said they want orcs integrated into the racial dynamics of the south, but if the orcs only head south after Kapou’e, then they don't figure into the racial dynamics at all! If you want to suggest a migration at that point in history, I think it would be better (at least for now) to work out the southern racial dynamics without orcs.
ghype wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 10:14 am
Yes, exactly. If orcs were (or any other northern factions) were to interfere with the south then it would have to be via ships and for that they would have to pass Palmiya. Exceptions probably would be saurians, drakes or undead, they could cross the desert.
No, you're wrong. I already mentioned this in the preceding response, but there are at least three ways to travel from Wesnoth or lands further north down to the dunefolk regions:
  1. By sea – this is probably the shortest and easiest route. Does require boats though, and if you're orcs, passes through hostile territory (merfolk, Elensefar)
  2. Across the desert – dangerous, might run out of water or become worm food. Not recommended. Also, orcs would need to pass through Wesnouth (ie, hostile territory) to even reach the desert.
  3. Around the mountains to the east. This might be a longer route and could have unknown dangers, but it completely bypasses both Wesnoth and the desert.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by ghype »

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 1:51 am
First, I want to point out that the map shows Palmiya is a mountain. I think mountains and jungle wouldn't really mix? (Mountains and forest is fine, just that the forest probably wouldn't really qualify as a jungle.) If you want the island to be lower and more forested, perhaps the map should be changed to reflect that.
That map has to be changed anyway, so yeah, adapting Palmiya to the current lore we are discussing was my plan. At the massive size of the island it wouldn't make sense for to be one massive volcano. There are gonna be jungles.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 1:51 am
There are two problems with this idea....

First, in order to get to Palmiya, they need to work their way through or around the entire Wesnoth Kingdom. If they travel by sea (which would be essential to explain the Palmiya idea - orcs travelling around Wesnoth by land would've ended up settling east of the Kesh mountains), then either they need to content with Elensefar and possibly the merfolk, or they need to sail far from land and risk getting lost. And they don't even know that there's anything to find there! That doesn't preclude them going obviously (explorers are a thing), but it certainly precludes a major expedition.

The second problem is that it actually doesn't appear to serve the intended goal. People have said they want orcs integrated into the racial dynamics of the south, but if the orcs only head south after Kapou’e, then they don't figure into the racial dynamics at all! If you want to suggest a migration at that point in history, I think it would be better (at least for now) to work out the southern racial dynamics without orcs.

I already mentioned this in the preceding response, but there are at least three ways to travel from Wesnoth or lands further north down to the dunefolk regions:
  1. By sea – this is probably the shortest and easiest route. Does require boats though, and if you're orcs, passes through hostile territory (merfolk, Elensefar)
  2. Across the desert – dangerous, might run out of water or become worm food. Not recommended. Also, orcs would need to pass through Wesnouth (ie, hostile territory) to even reach the desert.
  3. Around the mountains to the east. This might be a longer route and could have unknown dangers, but it completely bypasses both Wesnoth and the desert.
I might want to clarify my statement from earlier. As you said it probably result in dynamics for the orcs which we do not intend. Having Orcs so late is something I just realised is not ok. People are having a hard time justifying the orcs in the south. The easiest way would be that the orcs really landed by ships. These are just stranded ships form the lich invasion. Since mainline lore is being reworked, it will be no problem to state there that the orcs were transported by ships and not a portal. A portal raises more questions than it answers.

This would mean the orcs would be in the south around the time wesnoth was founded. This would allow the orcs to develop independently from the northern orcs. Before the stranded orcs arrived on Palmiya, there were only the elves and drakes. The first conflicts arose when the population of the orcs got increased the orcs wanted to expand on the island, retutling into some migrating to the mainland instead.

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 1:51 am
  • Why did the drakes settle on Palmiya? (For me, this is the only one with an obvious answer – drakes like volcanoes for whatever reason.)
yes. If drakes originate from Morogor, they either could have arrived on the north coast and instead of going deeper into the east, they went south where it was "warmer", meaning they were getting closer to the equatorial clima. Or some of the drakes went directly that way, while the others stayed north.

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 1:51 am
  • Why did the elves leave Palmiya?
For this I'd blame the orcs. The initial territorial conflicts between the elves and the orcs on the island grow bigger and bigger as it got so far that the orcs demanded territories that the elves were not willing to give up. This conflict grew into hatred between the elves and orcs. The elves became more and more the loosing party in this conflict until most elves had to abandon the island and emigrate to the other established elvish civilisation in the mainland jungles. All that remained were wose that manages to survive by hiding and smaller groups of elves that too live in hiding.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 1:51 am
  • Why did the orcs choose to settle on Palmiya instead of on the mainland?
After dominating the Palmiyas low lands and not being interested in the Volcano housed by the drakes, they moved on the mainland and expanded there. Some of them, freshly out of the conflict of the elves seeked more terror and raidings on the mainland, while other orcs wanted to just live peacefull in their tribes.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 1:51 am
  • If the dunefolk have outposts, colonies, settlements, or any presence there, what do they see in it? There must be a reason for them to establish a presence.
Dunefolk are aware of the island just by having traveling around the southern coast line to the bay of clouds. It was not until their golden age where one of the cities (maybe Serrul) focused on naval expeditions and naval transport of goods, was sending explorers to that island which brought diverse minerals and valuable spices, herbs and alchemy supplies. Two relatively small colonies were established there which have been co-existing with the remaining inhabitants of the island rather well as the colonies were indeed very small, comparable to the already established drakes/orcs there.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by MoonyDragon »

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 11:43 pm
MoonyDragon wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 3:03 am
TL;DR:
No conflict in the world -> No campaigns to play -> No lore and story to tell
=> The world of BfW needs a sufficient amount of conflict in order to be able to narrate the lore in the campaigns.
I feel like this argument is a bit disingenuous, as conflict does not necessarily require the nations to be at war, and even a seemingly peaceful setting can engender conflict.
The reply by Xalzar convinced me (that the current relations are idealized, and do not necessarily reflect the reality in a given time and location). Still, the majority of mainline campaigns do feature plenty of "hot wars" against openly declared enemies.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 11:50 pm
MoonyDragon wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 9:19 pm
I was referring to this version of politics, though the current (afaik) form of government goes even more in that direction. I felt such high levels of arbitration and control to be somewhat artificial, and citicized the lack of open conflict (warfare) which it would imply.
Huh? Neither version has a "one overlord" or dictator-Paragon.
I use the cambridge definition of overlord, which does not have to be equivalent to a dictator. Kings can be constitutionally limited powers, or even be elected.

Excerpt from the first version:
ghype wrote:
April 15th, 2020, 12:41 pm
For example, every City has its own Paragon (which is part of the governing group) while there is one "supreme" Paragon. The "supreme Paragon" (would need a better title), his votes would value more then the other Paragons - lets say 1/3 maybe?. Maybe even 1/2 if there are not many paragons (that would depend on how many cities we establish). This way it is ensured that the governing paragons can prevail of the "supreme" Paragon make bad decisions. In the Paragons descriptions it is said that "there is one Paragon that leads the next generation". That could be the "supreme" Paragon...
My problem was that, I find it artificial that the cities subject themselves to a "supreme Paragon" or a weighed democratic "governing group" at all.

Excerpt from the second version:
ghype wrote:
April 18th, 2020, 11:43 am
Once the remaining Khalai return and demonstrate their knowledge to "The Luminary Council" and they choose who are worthy candidates to become the next Paragon. It's possible that years pass till one if found to be worthy. Every 10 years, a new Paragon has to be elected. The candidates pool during that time has grown to a certain number of Khalai chosen by the "The Luminary Council" which then are presented to "The Ruling Council". Only then, the "Ruling Council" votes the next Paragon for the 10 years. The old Paragon then returns into nobility and enjoys a wealthy life.
This version goes even more in the direction of an arbitration, with both a Luminary Council and a Ruling Council governing the federation. And then, of course, there is a 10-year-elected Paragon, who (so it is implied) occupies a position of power.

This reply is supposed to clear misunderstandings, not reignite the discussion about dunefolk politics. If this political system is what the community/developers want, then I have no problems living with it.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by ghype »

MoonyDragon wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 8:11 pm
My problem was that, I find it artificial that the cities subject themselves to a "supreme Paragon" or a weighed democratic "governing group" at all.
MoonyDragon wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 8:11 pm
This version goes even more in the direction of an arbitration, with both a Luminary Council and a Ruling Council governing the federation. And then, of course, there is a 10-year-elected Paragon, who (so it is implied) occupies a position of power.
MoonyDragon wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 8:11 pm
Still, the majority of mainline campaigns do feature plenty of "hot wars" against openly declared enemies.

I answered to these things in the lore thread as it better discussed there as it better fits to that topic. If you still have questions, don't shy away!
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Edwylm »

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 1:51 am
Edwylm wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 4:14 am
Well when you consider that exterminated would include women and children, typically when extermination happens those on the receiving end will hold that grudge
Yes, of course. But how long will they hold that grudge? It's not impossible for it to be passed down from generation to generation, but it could also easily fade after just a few generations. It's not these saurians (or whatever race) who did something horrible, it's their ancestors.
well elves live longer than humans to my understanding how long is unknown. But yes there are many factors that play in holding a grudge,
1. is cause/reason, if it were the elves that did something bad they might not hold a grudge. Or they could just blame themselves for unable to protect them.
2. is education and standard of living.
3. is if they are still under a attack/treated bad by their attackers. if they are not being bothered its likely they won't hold a grudge.
there are likely more but It can be saved for when writing the lore in the writer's forum.

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 1:51 am
Edwylm wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 4:14 am
1. if some kind of disaster be it plague, volcano erupting, tsunami, cyclone. Dunefolk would be the most affected as they be more exposed and limited. It be mostly a orc vs drakes more than half of the time.
If there was a volcano, I think the drakes would take the worst of it, given that they literally live in a volcano. There may not be a lot of lives lost 9after all, they can fly), but they'd likely lose most of their homes. If it was a tsunami or cyclone, the orcs, drakes, and nagas would probably be hit the worst. The dunefolk might be affected too since many of their cities are coastal. Plague is more complicated, as the species involved are quite different so a disease affecting one species might not affect others.
depending on the type of volcano and lava composition. seeing that drakes live near active volcanoes they have to deal with the dangerous fumes and eruptions. Unless its a large eruption it wouldn't just affect the drakes but most islanders and if there is a ash cloud and wind is blowing towards the mainland they too will get affected. And flying away from a explosive eruption is null.
but the disasters are just a example that might give 1 race a advantage over the others at curtain times.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 1:51 am
Edwylm wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 4:14 am
2. a decisive battle/outsmarting your enemies or one side receiving aid can easily tip the balance. If you want this war to last its likely going to be a lot of skirmishing and no major battles. You might have 1 big battle over a distance of time to avoid crippling their military power.
So don't have a lasting war. Don't think of it as one ongoing war. Think of it as periods of war interspersed with periods of mostly peace. Though the factions remain largely the same, the reasons for each war will vary. There will probably be some common threads among them, though
This doesn't have to be a constant war as a disaster or waiting for a time for a opportunity could see 1 race totally pushed off the island. doesn't mean they might be able to come back but its more of the island is in a constant state of who controls it. You might have periods where 1 group rules most of the island. there are many ways to go about it.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 1:51 am
Edwylm wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 4:14 am
3. This leaves the drakes having less chances to go on raids outside of Palmiya with most raids would be on Saurians on the mainland to get more slaves to fight their war on Palmiya.
Exactly when did we decide the drakes were slave-keepers, anyway?
well we didn't say but a idea that was tossed about was drakes ruling Saurians. i was just giving a idea if we were to go down that route.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 1:51 am
Xalzar wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 9:08 am
Edwylm wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 4:14 am
(However it be interesting since both orcs and drakes are warlike to have some kind of "sacrifice" tournament. This would be areas where drakes have subjugated orcs, where the strongest drakes vs strongest orcs would take place. The orcs that best the drakes would ensure their tribe doesn't get attacked for as long as that orc lives (or until next sacrifice year). And if the orc loses, their tribe gets attacked as a sacrifice. The drakes might do this to keep orc population down, to maintain their terror or for entertainment. Just a thought that might but fun to work with.)
I like this unprecedented relationship between two war-like races. I can see cases where before a Drake raid, the Drake "champion" challenges an Orc "champion" and if the Drakes lose the duel they leave the Orc tribe alone.
If you're thinking of the drakes and the orcs as "two war-like races", then I don't think Edwylm's idea makes any sense – it paints a picture of orcs subjugated by drakes, after all.
Well both races value strength normally drakes fight for leadership and climbing the social positions, where we have most orc warrior tribes also have this leader structure may it be less "honorable" it curtain ways as they have strngth and cunning . I can see Drakes on a battlefield looking for duels within their own society but why can't they also duel against other races? the north could have more of it being honorable where the south could use it to subjugate. kill the strongest warrior in a duel before a battle would make the loser side lose morale or could completely prevent a war/battle. but its just an idea.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

ghype wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 8:55 am
At the massive size of the island it wouldn't make sense for to be one massive volcano.
Just noting that volcanoes don't necessarily occur in isolation. With the size of Palmiya, it could easily be two or three or four volcanoes… or it could've formed from a hotspot like Hawaii, in which case there would be several peaks.

This isn't a complaint, just noting something you might not have thought of.
MoonyDragon wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 8:11 pm
I use the cambridge definition of overlord, which does not have to be equivalent to a dictator. Kings can be constitutionally limited powers, or even be elected.
Okay, fair enough. Clearly I was misinterpreting your use of the word "overlord" at least to a degree.
MoonyDragon wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 8:11 pm
This reply is supposed to clear misunderstandings, not reignite the discussion about dunefolk politics. If this political system is what the community/developers want, then I have no problems living with it.
Well, it's not like I'm heavily attached to the precise form that has been worked out. I like many of the ideas that went into building it, but it could've come out in many different ways that I'd still be okay with.
Edwylm wrote:
May 1st, 2020, 5:36 pm
Well both races value strength normally drakes fight for leadership and climbing the social positions, where we have most orc warrior tribes also have this leader structure may it be less "honorable" it curtain ways as they have strngth and cunning . I can see Drakes on a battlefield looking for duels within their own society but why can't they also duel against other races? the north could have more of it being honorable where the south could use it to subjugate. kill the strongest warrior in a duel before a battle would make the loser side lose morale or could completely prevent a war/battle. but its just an idea.
It's precisely the similarities between orcs and drakes that you outline here that makes me think the orcs wouldn't just accept an arrangement where their tribe gets attacked if they lose a duel. Now, if winning the duel meant they could attack the drakes without repercussion, then all of a sudden they're on more equal footing rather than being subjugated, so it would be less of a stretch.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Xalzar »

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
May 2nd, 2020, 2:22 am
Edwylm wrote:
May 1st, 2020, 5:36 pm
Well both races value strength normally drakes fight for leadership and climbing the social positions, where we have most orc warrior tribes also have this leader structure may it be less "honorable" it curtain ways as they have strngth and cunning . I can see Drakes on a battlefield looking for duels within their own society but why can't they also duel against other races? the north could have more of it being honorable where the south could use it to subjugate. kill the strongest warrior in a duel before a battle would make the loser side lose morale or could completely prevent a war/battle. but its just an idea.
It's precisely the similarities between orcs and drakes that you outline here that makes me think the orcs wouldn't just accept an arrangement where their tribe gets attacked if they lose a duel. Now, if winning the duel meant they could attack the drakes without repercussion, then all of a sudden they're on more equal footing rather than being subjugated, so it would be less of a stretch.
I think it's more like that as things are developing now it seems that Drakes are quite in a dominant position nearly throughout the Southlands - and are being set as the main antagonists in some areas. Now, why is that? Probably when they escaped from Morogor (is this still valid after the canon rework?), the main part migrated in the south, so they were in a better position of establish themselves there than in the north.

This doesn't mean however that the Orcs are strictly subjugated IMO (unless it's what we really want, and possibly only in some cases), just that Orcs - unlike in the north - are quite on the backfoot, and cannot so easily deny the Drakes' demands.
So it's more like: the Drakes give the Orc tribe a chance to prove themselves with a champions' duel, and if the Orc loses, his tribe should better prepare to fight! Else, Drakes retreat and leave that tribe alone for the time being, and go raid somewhere else.

It seems a fitting behaviour for Drakes, as they are already depicted as honour-bound, law-abiding, and brutal but fair in the canon mainline.
It's not like a "you are our Orc slaves, let your champion fight us or surrender and let us raid you without resistance!"-type of deal like it seems you're suggesting.

Finally, this situation could well be not happening everywhere but perhaps be confined to the areas around Palmiya, since it seems the area with the most poweful Drake presence.
---
About Orc presence in the Southlands, it seems the preferred explanation for now it's that some boats from Jevyan's fleet dispersed during the storm and many Orcs found themselves stranded in the south.
First: it seems too similar to what happened to half of Haldric's fleet, yet they managed to reconnect with the landed forces just fine;
Second: if we connect too many things to the same, few events already depicted in mainline campaigns, we make it seem like those events have been crucial for manifold future developments all around the continent! Let's see what the Rise of Wesnoth brings already: Lich Lords, Orcs, the discover of the Ruby of Fire (which returns many other times in future campaigns), human arrival on the Great Continent, a hint of the Drake migration (debatable), a fragile pact between Elves and Humans, introduction of necromancy in the Great Continent (I recall it was present already but much more rare), the origine of enmity between Orcs and Elves, the fusion between the Islefolk (Valefolk now?) and Wesfolk people to give birth to the main kingdom of the game.
Do we want to add that Orcs split off from the main fleet and this was instrumental in the founding of an Orcish civilization in the south? Too many eggs in one basket IMO.
I'm still considering the possibility of Orcs migrating southward in the period where they were strong and constantly invading Wesnoth and surrounding areas (in particular the Eastmark hills), possibly because of population pressure, or to search for new, unspoiled raid targets, or because of hasty retreats after having been finally defeated.
This also neatly puts a reason for the "Ashland corridor" to exist for something at least (I'm referring to the narrow stretch of plains between the kingdom of Wesnoth, the Eastmark hills, the Bitter Swamp and the desert in the south - which as of right now, it's empty and useless).
Then we should see how would they reach the locations we want them to have.

I think it's time we collect our "Southern Orc origins" options on our plate and value pros/cons of everyone and finally decide.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

Xalzar wrote:
May 2nd, 2020, 10:14 am
So it's more like: the Drakes give the Orc tribe a chance to prove themselves with a champions' duel, and if the Orc loses, his tribe should better prepare to fight! Else, Drakes retreat and leave that tribe alone for the time being, and go raid somewhere else.
Xalzar wrote:
May 2nd, 2020, 10:14 am
It's not like a "you are our Orc slaves, let your champion fight us or surrender and let us raid you without resistance!"-type of deal like it seems you're suggesting.
I honestly don't see the difference between these two scenarios. Okay, they may differ in some surface details, but on a fundamental level they seem basically identical to me.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Xalzar »

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
May 2nd, 2020, 6:52 pm
I honestly don't see the difference between these two scenarios. Okay, they may differ in some surface details, but on a fundamental level they seem basically identical to me.
The critical difference it's that the Orcs are not enslaved by Drakes and hunted for fun, they are independent but subjected to Drakes' raids.
If we consider the Southlands situation, I can see no easy way for Orcs to retaliate to Drakes fortified up into the mountains.
This situation could be changed if they become strong enough to assault the Drakes' positions or if they manage to fortify themselves aswell to mount a proper defense and not yield to the Drake's challenge and risk their champion (if they feel like, they can always risk it if they feel they their chosen one has a chance to beat his opponent and spare many lives avoiding the conflict).
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
May 2nd, 2020, 2:22 am
It's precisely the similarities between orcs and drakes that you outline here that makes me think the orcs wouldn't just accept an arrangement where their tribe gets attacked if they lose a duel. Now, if winning the duel meant they could attack the drakes without repercussion, then all of a sudden they're on more equal footing rather than being subjugated, so it would be less of a stretch.
Reading your comment I understood that your perplexity was about the "subjugated" state of Orcs. First, Orcs wouldn't be subjugated, and if there were some (and I think there could be, maybe not as slaves since I don't know if Drakes would have those but as tributaries I guess) this situation would not happen often unless they refuse orders or rebel (no reason to attack your own subjects if they cause no problems). Maybe you're saying no Orcs would live under the heel of another race, and they would rather die fighting their masters? But then the Jevyan case...

Or is it that in this Drakes are aggressors and the Orcs the defenders? I'm basing all of that on what is developing in this very topic, with Orcs that are more civilized and peaceful (and that could accept a duel in order to avoid a greater conflict), and more predominant and aggressive Drakes.
Maybe you're imagining the opposite situation, with Orcs attacking Drakes and challenging their champion? It's possible to change their dynamics to that, but then I don't see much difference between the southern and northern Orcs behaviours (and I don't see Orcs valuing "honorable combat" in general).
Also, your "Orc could attack the Drakes without repercussion" line doesn't make any sense to me, nobody goes down without fighting (except serious pacifists).

If your doubts were about something else, please clarify because I can't understand your point otherwise.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Edwylm »

Concerning the drake orc relations another aspect is how the orcs view drakes? have orcs dealt with dragons before or not? If the orcs first met drakes is it possible these orcs might view them as godlike or just an animal? this might help determine relations. However having orcs warriors using this challenge might give the orc a right of passage to become a great warrior. like trail by fire in a way. it be a minor culture but an interesting concept. You could view drakes as fighting duels as a honorable way and to subjugate "lesser races" to their rule. And the orcs may view this as a test of strength and possible leadership status. But so much has to be done before hand like how the orcs arrived. But also each tribe would be different I would see weak tribes trying to appease the drakes if they are to survive.

Well overall i'm not sure how i feel about having orcs in this region. some of me say it might not sound bad but another is opposed. if orcs manage to arrive in the southlands after the wesnoth was formed then why don't we have any wesnoth colonies in the south. I can see some ports over time and in the wesnoth's golden age. the orcs I would think i would prefer that they went though a storm and the some of the ships didn't make it and the orcs wash ashore. It would create an interesting campaign if you wanted to make one, having to survive and building up a civilization from nothing as orcs wouldn't have one to look at. it would paint a different picture of the orcs and it would create many paths in this struggle to survive in this hostile environment.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by ghype »

Xalzar wrote:
May 2nd, 2020, 10:14 am
About Orc presence in the Southlands, it seems the preferred explanation for now it's that some boats from Jevyan's fleet dispersed during the storm and many Orcs found themselves stranded in the south.
First: it seems too similar to what happened to half of Haldric's fleet, yet they managed to reconnect with the landed forces just fine;
Second: if we connect too many things to the same, few events already depicted in mainline campaigns, we make it seem like those events have been crucial for manifold future developments all around the continent! Let's see what the Rise of Wesnoth brings already: Lich Lords, Orcs, the discover of the Ruby of Fire (which returns many other times in future campaigns), human arrival on the Great Continent, a hint of the Drake migration (debatable), a fragile pact between Elves and Humans, introduction of necromancy in the Great Continent (I recall it was present already but much more rare), the origine of enmity between Orcs and Elves, the fusion between the Islefolk (Valefolk now?) and Wesfolk people to give birth to the main kingdom of the game.
Do we want to add that Orcs split off from the main fleet and this was instrumental in the founding of an Orcish civilization in the south? Too many eggs in one basket IMO.
I'm still considering the possibility of Orcs migrating southward in the period where they were strong and constantly invading Wesnoth and surrounding areas (in particular the Eastmark hills), possibly because of population pressure, or to search for new, unspoiled raid targets, or because of hasty retreats after having been finally defeated.
This also neatly puts a reason for the "Ashland corridor" to exist for something at least (I'm referring to the narrow stretch of plains between the kingdom of Wesnoth, the Eastmark hills, the Bitter Swamp and the desert in the south - which as of right now, it's empty and useless).
Then we should see how would they reach the locations we want them to have.

I think it's time we collect our "Southern Orc origins" options on our plate and value pros/cons of everyone and finally decide.
The fact the the orcs lost a ship or two on the invasion seems rather trivial. Say just a single ship arrived on Palmiya and assuming the mainline dunefolk timeline we want to portray is between 500 an 800 YW or even later, then it should be not unpossible that the orcs over the decedaes spread out on their own. Maybe in the periods where orcs where strong in the north, even more came to the south.

HttT is a quiet large campaign which is reason why it is currently rework (as far my knowledge goes, I could be wrong). I don't even think this trivial fact has to be mentioned if not just a brief reference on that some ships might got lost. At this point I am open to any versions, but the later the orcs are introduced in the southern time line, the less they could (but don't have to) be considered established, the less sophisticated conflicts we could have?
Xalzar wrote:
May 2nd, 2020, 10:14 am
Do we want to add that Orcs split off from the main fleet and this was instrumental in the founding of an Orcish civilization in the south? Too many eggs in one basket IMO.
If the Ocean between the Green Isles is considered stormy, then I see no reason why that not is possible. Correct me If I am wrong but didn't Haldric derailed from is route to the mainland?

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you guys seem invested in the orc/drake relation. I'll let you guys figure it out as I have no opinion and I am ok with what ever comes out.
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