Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

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ghype
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by ghype »

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 24th, 2020, 11:28 pm
Even if you interpret the sprite as having the power to control rocks and earth, that doesn't translate to a "mud golem" or mudrawlers. Mud is earth plus water.

That said, I'd be more inclined to interpret the sprite as having control over air, rather than earth. If you can control air, then of course that includes blowing sand and small rocks around. (It's also not clear to me whether those are actual rocks in the sprite, or just small clouds of dust and sand.)
Fair enough. Guess the Dust Devil and Fire Whips are enough already.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 24th, 2020, 11:28 pm
I thought the darker brown was mountains, but okay.
Right. The ligtht brown were hills. I just didn draw the moutnains as the shapes might change. But yeah, better leave them unknown.
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ghype
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by ghype »

So, since we got a lot of good comments, I am summarising some thoughts here.

Also I updated the map by adding undead where they should have been and adding saurians to Palmiya as that seems to make sense. Also added trolls to in the mountains of the dwarfs to show that they get along. Furthermore, re-introduces the naga "swamp" in the south to further enforce the relationship between the dunefolks and nagas. Adjusted some terrain according to the new undead


New Irdya-Territories -12 .png


Some thoughts to hold on to ...

Dunefolks:
  • dunefolk and dwarves have a good relation ship with dwarves due to their trading and the past they share in the south
  • dunefolk control most parts of the cloud river and the river that connected the oasis in the desert and end in the south side of the continent


Dwarves:
  • the dwarves share their territory with the trolls and learned to respect each others territory above and underground
  • the dwarves are mainly mining ores and rare metals which they either sell them the dunefolks or trade them in exchange for rare goods dwarves do not have in their mountains
  • For that reason, you might not encounter dwarves anywhere else as the dunfolk are providing them with the rarities and oddities from the dunes and beyond.
  • the drakes in the south do not bother the dwarfs, as they know they would have to deal with the dwarfs and trolls all-together
  • the dwarves here do not share a lot of contact with the elves in the east, but are aware of each others presence


Elves:
  • The elves have a close relationship to woses and merfolk as we they have it in the north as well.
  • They have a nominal presence in the western jungle while sustaining trading outposts in the smaller forests east from the bigger jungle
  • The Elves far in the east share a lot of territory with the saurians. They also learned to respect each others territories which was a base the elves in the saurians could build upon.
  • There they are not much bothered by the trolls. Only the drakes are occasionally terrorising the jungles of the Elves.


Woses:
  • Wose have a presence in in all of the jungles to some degree.
  • They however have the most peace int he two jungles where Elves have their trading outpost
  • The Wyverns in the north show no interest in the jungles and not even the drakes bother to march that far considering that they would have to pass territory controlled by merfolk


Merfolk:
  • controlling most of the southern coast, the merfolk in the south sure are in touch with many races
  • they are trading a lot with the elves and the dunfolks but also with the saurians in the east
  • they do not venture into the riverlands as they are open for enemies such as drakes in the east of would be entering areas economically controlled by the nagas
  • the islands on the southern coasts are part of their reign


Drakes:
  • the drakes settled down in mountains regions close to the desert.
  • the desert dunes is where they hunt their prey or attack passing by caravans
  • some mountains they share with troll, but the trolls are not often seen over ground in the territories of the drakes as a drake would never willingly venture into the deep caves of the troll
  • the drakes in the east venture also in the jungles and wet lands of the elves and drakes, but often times the saurians repelling the drakes demands
  • Drakes however prefer the ground of the Palmiya as that whole Island basically is an volcano, which shows from time to time signs of activity


Saurians:
  • in the east they have a large a big territory where they can live together
  • the occasional trading with the merfolk in the south and the elves in the north let the saurian communities thrive
  • the saurians in the west are surrounded by hostile orcs, which makes them generally weary to outsiders.
  • the nagas in the north do not interfere in these conflicts
  • the saurians there are aware of the presence of others on Palmiya due to the drake that fly from Palmiya.
  • both the saurians on the mainland and on Palmiya are on good terms with the drakes coming from Palmiya


Orcs:
  • The orcs on the southern mainland are different than in the north
  • while there orcs that terrorise their neighbours there are also smaller orc tribes that want to live in peace
  • those ventured out in the desert, the dunefolk are aware of these orcs and due to their peaceful behaviour, which led to frequent collaboration between the orc tribes and the dunefolk
  • conflict between the remaining orcs on the mainland is not to be ruled out
  • orcs on Palmiya have some ties to the mainland orcs as the mainland orcs originate from the island
  • when first arrived on Palmiya the orcs have had enough space, but once the orcs population started to raise, saurians feared that they might run over them, so the orcs and saurians are i constant conflict there
  • the 3rd party on Palmiya, who live in the south while the orc/saurian conflict happens in the north of the island, do not venture for that reason north


Naga:
  • the nagas are controlling the entire bay of clouds and support the dunefolk in their naval activities.
  • those on the bay of clouds do not have many enemies, considering that they are in an alliance with the dunefolk
  • they eventually have some encounters with the drakes that try to fly from the one side to the other or.
  • the nagas outside of the bay too encounter drakes coming from Palmiya.
  • the nagas too have a territory on the mainland for them selves. With the swamp on the souther river they too control most of the rivers up into the desert. So encountering nagas in the rivers is very much likely


I do not have much to say about Trolls as it seems self explanatory and the undead territories are from the northern mainline. We have some undead rumouring the northern sandy wastes and some individual necromancers spread in the entire southern continent, but thats it.

If anyone wished to add anythign specifically to the dynamics of trolls or trolls/dwarves and undead then please let me know.



Reason for concluding this is for me to know what kind of villages we need:
  • 1 dwarf citiy
  • at least 1 orc city on the mainland
  • 1 orc city on Palmiya
  • 1 saurian city in the eastern jungle


So ... what about drakes, merfolk and naga? can some one tell me if any of these 3 races have cities that should be marked on the map?

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MoonyDragon
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by MoonyDragon »

There is one thing that has bothered me since quite some time. It is the absence of any meaningful conflicts, wars and hatreds in the world we are building ... for a wargame! Stories are driven by conflict, and their absence means a blackout for the time that peace prevails. In the worst case, one might write:
"Peace lasted for a thousand years afterwards... Nothing remarkable happened."

It started with my dislike for current form of dunefolk city politics, which is a confederation where all of their paragons (=kings) are subject to one overlord... in perpetuity. I personally imagined the dunefolk cities to be closer to what "Kings and Generals" are depicting in this ~1h long series:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... Qhs8M_ufQn
If an arch-ruler exists, it will be not because of a 1k-year long tradition, but because he is a highly successful warlord/diplomat, whose conquests and exploits are deserving of their own campaign.

ghype wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 1:11 pm
...
Mentions of positive relations:
* dunefolk get along with nagas and dwarves
* dwarves get along with trolls
* drakes do not bother trolls and dwarves
* dwarves and elves have no contact
* elves get along with woses, merfolk, saurians and trolls (!)
* merfolk get along with saurians
* nagas do not interfere in saurian-orcish conflicts
* saurians and drakes are on good terms
* smaller orc tribes want to live in peace (!) and cooperate with dunefolk
* nagas barely have enemies due to their dunefolk alliance

Mentions of negative relations:
* drakes terrorize the elves
* saurians repell drakish demands
* orcs and saurians are hostile to each other
* conflicts with mainland orcs are not to be ruled out

It is easy to set the peace between e.g. saurians and elves into stone, but by doing so, one destroys all the interesting campaigns about their conflicts, since doing so contradicts the existing canon. In a wargame like wesnoth, I'd prefer opportunities for plentiful conflict, which future UMC / campaign creators may take advantage of.
Just my 2c.
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Hejnewar
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Hejnewar »

MoonyDragon wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 3:44 pm
Mentions of positive relations:
* dunefolk get along with nagas and dwarves
* dwarves get along with trolls
* drakes do not bother trolls and dwarves
* dwarves and elves have no contact
* elves get along with woses, merfolk, saurians and trolls (!)
* merfolk get along with saurians
* nagas do not interfere in saurian-orcish conflicts
* saurians and drakes are on good terms
* smaller orc tribes want to live in peace (!) and cooperate with dunefolk
* nagas barely have enemies due to their dunefolk alliance

Mentions of negative relations:
* drakes terrorize the elves
* saurians repell drakish demands
* orcs and saurians are hostile to each other
* conflicts with mainland orcs are not to be ruled out
* dwarves get along with trolls
* drakes do not bother trolls and dwarves
* nagas do not interfere in saurian-orcish conflicts
* smaller orc tribes want to live in peace (!) and cooperate with dunefolk

I would cross these out because they make not too much sense.

Dwarves and trolls are usually enemies.
Drakes bother everyone.
Nagas can be with both dunefolk and orc and don't need to be categorised as one race but as many tribes, some can side with orcs, some with dunefolk.
Smaller orc tribes have no choice.

3 of negative relationships belong to saurians. :lol:

* elves get along with woses, merfolk, saurians and trolls (!)

Yeah elves actually can like trolls, they are close to nature after all.
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Edwylm
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Edwylm »

I see many problems and i can't understand it. A lot of these relationships do not make sense and i will point them out.
ghype wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 1:11 pm
Dunefolks:
  • dunefolk and dwarves have a good relation ship with dwarves due to their trading and the past they share in the south
  • dunefolk control most parts of the cloud river and the river that connected the oasis in the desert and end in the south side of the continent
I would suggest that drakes are one of those that cause issues not just raiding but also having territory conflicts.
The dunefolk do not have much contact with elves the further from the coasts and those deep in the deserts tend to be weary of outsiders.
need to include relations with drakes and saurians. but seeing that drakes raid dunefolk they are not on good terms.
ghype wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 1:11 pm
Dwarves:
  • the dwarves share their territory with the trolls and learned to respect each others territory above and underground
  • the dwarves are mainly mining ores and rare metals which they either sell them the dunefolks or trade them in exchange for rare goods dwarves do not have in their mountains
  • For that reason, you might not encounter dwarves anywhere else as the dunfolk are providing them with the rarities and oddities from the dunes and beyond.
Sounds like the dwarves are isolationists in general. Should have that the only dwaves explorers/line are seen outside the dwarven kingdoms
ghype wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 1:11 pm
  • the drakes in the south do not bother the dwarfs, as they know they would have to deal with the dwarfs and trolls all-together
  • There they are not much bothered by the trolls. Only the drakes are occasionally terrorising the jungles of the Elves.
  • some mountains they share with troll, but the trolls are not often seen over ground in the territories of the drakes as a drake would never willingly venture into the deep caves of the troll
  • the drakes in the east venture also in the jungles and wet lands of the elves and drakes, but often times the saurians repelling the drakes demands
I have no clue whats going on with these relations as they do not make any sense...
we have trolls allied with dwarves, elves allied with saurians. But yet we have the drakes not wanting to get involved with dwarves and trolls but willing to fight elves that are allied with the saurians with the possibility that elves might be allied with trolls too. :hmm:
Just have it that the drakes in the south being very hostile to every race. where they feel inclined to rule much like the dragons of old and they do have ideology conflicts from those from Palmiya where those drakes are more willing to coexist with other races and live more peacefully.
ghype wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 1:11 pm
Drakes:
  • the drakes settled down in mountains regions close to the desert.
  • the desert dunes is where they hunt their prey or attack passing by caravans
  • Drakes however prefer the ground of the Palmiya as that whole Island basically is an volcano, which shows from time to time signs of activity
Should have the drakes outside of Palmiya are trying to establish their own territory or expand them. there needs to be more than just "raid/hunt"
ghype wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 1:11 pm
Orcs:
  • those ventured out in the desert, the dunefolk are aware of these orcs and due to their peaceful behaviour, which led to frequent collaboration between the orc tribes and the dunefolk
  • conflict between the remaining orcs on the mainland is not to be ruled out
  • orcs on Palmiya have some ties to the mainland orcs as the mainland orcs originate from the island
  • when first arrived on Palmiya the orcs have had enough space, but once the orcs population started to raise, saurians feared that they might run over them, so the orcs and saurians are i constant conflict there
  • the 3rd party on Palmiya, who live in the south while the orc/saurian conflict happens in the north of the island, do not venture for that reason north
  • both the saurians on the mainland and on Palmiya are on good terms with the drakes coming from Palmiya
This in itself is also confusing mainly of what was the first things that happened when the orcs arrived :|
orcs first arrived on Palmiya we have 2 other races on the island did these 2 races helped them seeing them wash ashore or did they fight them thinking of a invasion. I'm sure the orcs on Palmiya would be the peaceful ones compared to the orcs on the mainland as the saurains and drakes would have kicked the war hungry orcs or force all orcs off live in the mainland. I can't just see saurians not be allied to the drakes of Palmiya at anytime these 2 races are living on the island. I can't see a constant war on the island as stated above but also if they were saved by the saurains and drakes they would be more inclined to fallow their rules and guidance.

if the orcs were kicked out and forced into a hostile desert like environment they might be more willingly to ally with the dunefolk that has already dealt with drakes that are hostile to them. This would be a twist as orcs would be fighting saurians and drakes and not humans or elves, though the elves would probably aid the Palmiya residence.

my advice is to make a web for relations or a list of nations and then work on their relationships so you can avoid contradictions.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by MoonyDragon »

Edwylm wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 7:50 pm
This in itself is also confusing mainly of what was the first things that happened when the orcs arrived :|
orcs first arrived on Palmiya we have 2 other races on the island did these 2 races helped them seeing them wash ashore or did they fight them thinking of a invasion. I'm sure the orcs on Palmiya would be the peaceful ones compared to the orcs on the mainland as the saurains and drakes would have kicked the war hungry orcs or force all orcs off live in the mainland. I can't just see saurians not be allied to the drakes of Palmiya at anytime these 2 races are living on the island. I can't see a constant war on the island as stated above but also if they were saved by the saurains and drakes they would be more inclined to fallow their rules and guidance.

if the orcs were kicked out and forced into a hostile desert like environment they might be more willingly to ally with the dunefolk that has already dealt with drakes that are hostile to them. This would be a twist as orcs would be fighting saurians and drakes and not humans or elves, though the elves would probably aid the Palmiya residence.
Okay, I'll chime in on this discussion since I was the guy who named "Pamiya" and wrote some nonsensical lore about it in the first place.

Here is a quick history of that island as portrayed in "Palms amid Blue Dunes":
* Millenia ago, elves and woses inhabit the island, building great cities and entertaining an elaborate culture.
* Dragons, drakes and saurians invaded and fought a brutal war against the elves.
* The elves were exterminated and the lizard races took over their habitat. Their cities were reduced to ruins. Woses survived in hiding.
* Orcs arrive by the sea (expedition by Asheviere? Pursuers of Haldric I?) and come into conflict with the lizard races.
* Dunefolk arrive by the sea (seeking profitable spices) and come into conflict with the other two factions.

Status quo:
* Orcs are in a total war against lizards and dunefolk. They are out for conquest, as were the lizard races in their time.
* Lizards are in a total war against orcs and dunefolk. They (rightly) see the humanoid races as invaders.
* Dunefolk are in a total war against orcs and lizards. They see the others as a hindrance to their own colonial/mercantile plans (ancient elvish artefacts + rare spices).

Honorable mentions:
* Saurians are double agents to both drakes and dunefolk (via the naga, who too have some questionable loyalities).

No side completely dominates, and so intrigue and politics reign supreme on that island instead. If any side gets some advantage, the others will conspire to preserve the balance of power... until some other event tips the balance otherwise. Each side needs one enemy to hold off the other :D
As you can see, it's all about blood for the blood gods, as it should be in a game about war. It is something like this (and the videos I have posted above), how I imagine the relations between different races and dunefolk cities to be on the mainland.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Edwylm »

Well your ideas seems to predate the suggestions posted in the thread and I will try my best to no let what i currently know or read make any biased statements.
MoonyDragon wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 9:12 pm
Here is a quick history of that island as portrayed in "Palms amid Blue Dunes":
* Millenia ago, elves and woses inhabit the island, building great cities and entertaining an elaborate culture.
* Dragons, drakes and saurians invaded and fought a brutal war against the elves.
* The elves were exterminated and the lizard races took over their habitat. Their cities were reduced to ruins. Woses survived in hiding.
* Orcs arrive by the sea (expedition by Asheviere? Pursuers of Haldric I?) and come into conflict with the lizard races.
* Dunefolk arrive by the sea (seeking profitable spices) and come into conflict with the other two factions.
I can see that however having the elves be exterminated would cause issues and there be 0 chances of elf and saurian friendship. Which from what I see from both CM and ghype+ community that south should have good relations with elves and Saurians. Your idea does revolve around the current lore so it does make sense.

A "expedition by Asheviere?" is iffy at best reason. because you would see Wesnoth folk in this region too before or during the orcs arrival. I'm not saying its not possible but its a unknown territory.

Lastly depending on the dunefolk arrival in the area the "lizards" would have feuded with the dinefolk long before the "seeking trade wealth" part. But the long history of dunefolk is unknown/to be decided.
MoonyDragon wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 9:12 pm
Status quo:
* Orcs are in a total war against lizards and dunefolk. They are out for conquest, as were the lizard races in their time.
* Lizards are in a total war against orcs and dunefolk. They (rightly) see the humanoid races as invaders.
* Dunefolk are in a total war against orcs and lizards. They see the others as a hindrance to their own colonial/mercantile plans (ancient elvish artefacts + rare spices).

Honorable mentions:
* Saurians are double agents to both drakes and dunefolk (via the naga, who too have some questionable loyalities).

No side completely dominates, and so intrigue and politics reign supreme on that island instead. If any side gets some advantage, the others will conspire to preserve the balance of power... until some other event tips the balance otherwise. Each side needs one enemy to hold off the other :D
As you can see, it's all about blood for the blood gods, as it should be in a game about war. It is something like this (and the videos I have posted above), how I imagine the relations between different races and dunefolk cities to be on the mainland.
the 3 way war i can see happening as it would prevent the dunefolk and information to reach wesnoth region and it is lore friendly to the current lore. The only thing would be that the Dunefolk will not have a constant war nor would they be able to have a foothold on the island logistics is their problem, mainly wood to build ships if they lose a ship it be a huge lose but the naga are suppose to help in that regard. Another thing would be is taking the island worth it if they can't even hold it for a while. They might send raids to the island to gain their prizes. Orcs fast reproduction with the aid of possibly having wesnoth ports would prevent the logistics problems they may have. Drakes and saurians have the home field advantage but they be fighting elves. But since we have the rewriting happening things are to change.

i assume you mean Nagas are double agents to both "lizards" and dunefolk. But even than is is not double agent like its more of who will benefit their own needs or who will win. I wouldn't be surprised if 2 naga clans would be fighting each other do to their alliance stances.

lastly "If any side gets some advantage, the others will conspire to preserve the balance of power..." simply this wouldn't work unless they call in aid from somewhere else as you have stated "total war" the other side will not listen to their mortal enemies. They might shift their goals in defeating the stronger foe but what would prevent 2 sides gaining up on 1 to wipe them out and it just be a 1 vs 1. I never like this logic but if the devs want it, its up to them.

PS this might be a war game and its all for the "blood god" but without the mead(lore and stroy) it gets boring. multiplayer is the "blood" part and the campaigns is the meat. its not just a war game but a story so your idea of "as it should be in a game about war" does not explain wesnoth. I'm not trying to put you down or anything as you have your own thoughts but world building is more complicated than just thinking of war.
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MoonyDragon
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by MoonyDragon »

Edwylm wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 12:17 am
Well your ideas seems to predate the suggestions posted in the thread and I will try my best to no let what i currently know or read make any biased statements.
MoonyDragon wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 9:12 pm
...
I can see that however having the elves be exterminated would cause issues and there be 0 chances of elf and saurian friendship. Which from what I see from both CM and ghype+ community that south should have good relations with elves and Saurians. Your idea does revolve around the current lore so it does make sense.

A "expedition by Asheviere?" is iffy at best reason. because you would see Wesnoth folk in this region too before or during the orcs arrival. I'm not saying its not possible but its a unknown territory.

Lastly depending on the dunefolk arrival in the area the "lizards" would have feuded with the dinefolk long before the "seeking trade wealth" part. But the long history of dunefolk is unknown/to be decided.
MoonyDragon wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 9:12 pm
...
the 3 way war i can see happening as it would prevent the dunefolk and information to reach wesnoth region and it is lore friendly to the current lore. The only thing would be that the Dunefolk will not have a constant war nor would they be able to have a foothold on the island logistics is their problem. Another thing would be is taking the island worth it if they can't even hold it for a while. They might send raids to the island to gain their prizes. Orcs fast reproduction with the aid of possibly having wesnoth ports would prevent the logistics problems they may have. Drakes and saurians have the home field advantage but they be fighting elves. But since we have the rewriting happening things are to change.

i assume you mean Nagas are double agents to both "lizards" and dunefolk. But even than is is not double agent like its more of who will benefit their own needs or who will win. I wouldn't be surprised if 2 naga clans would be fighting each other do to their alliance stances.

lastly "If any side gets some advantage, the others will conspire to preserve the balance of power..." simply this wouldn't work unless they call in aid from somewhere else as you have stated "total war" the other side will not listen to their mortal enemies. They might shift their goals in defeating the stronger foe but what would prevent 2 sides gaining up on 1 to wipe them out and it just be a 1 vs 1. I never like this logic but if the devs want it, its up to them.

PS this might be a war game and its all for the "blood god" but without the mead(lore and stroy) it gets boring. multiplayer is the "blood" part and the campaigns is the meat. its not just a war game but a story so your idea of "as it should be in a game about war" does not explain wesnoth. I'm not trying to put you down or anything as you have your own thoughts but world building is more complicated than just thinking of war.

I have to admit that mentions of "total war" and "blood gods" are comic exaggerations. The total war part meant to express a continued struggle with no agreement in sight. As for the latter (blood for the blood gods), it is a reference to the universe of Warhammer 40k, which is (in popular culture) chiefly known for a grimdark depiction of neverending war in space. This is all I meant to express, and I do not take responsibility for further interpretations or conflations of 20th century warfare with medieval warfare.

- Even if ghype, CM and "community" unanimously advocate elven and saurian friendship, this does not prevent me from sharing a contradicting opinion. Until a definite conclusion concerning the faction relations in the southlands has been reached, any idea is worthy of consideration.

- Whether the orcs arrived due to being shipwrecked pursuers of Haldric I, or an exploratory expedition by Asheviere, or something else entirely, is still not settled, as indicated by the question marks.

- Since we are writing a fictional story, anything can be explained by a little bit of imagination, provided it is consistent with the rules of the universe. So let me postulate:
* The dunefolk are able to afford a constant war with the drakes and orcs. They have the resources and besides, the war in palmiya is highly profitable (elvish gold and rare spices). The expeditions of the conquistadors only made spain richer, not the opposite.
* The dunefolk are much more efficient in warfare than the drakes and orcs, but they cannot penetrate deeper into the island. Also, their logistics are unstable and they are able to entertain one (heavily defended) trading outpost on the coast. Think of the crusader states.
* Drakes have excellent mobility in their homeland, but lack the dunefolk expertise and orcish numbers. They dominate other races in the inner regions of palmiya.
* Orc take with their numbers, but cannot compete with drakes in the inner regions or with dunefolk on the coast.

- When I wrote "Lizards" in reference to the different factions, I meant both drakes and saurians. But other than that, I use the world to denounce any combination of dragons, drakes, saurians and nagas.
I imagine nagas to be opportunistic and without any greater loyalty to the dunefolk than to the weight of their purses. It just happens that cooperation with the dunefolk is profitable, but if any other faction wants to strike a deal, nagas are in it. Same with the saurians, who are getting tired of being the underlings of the drakes and begin to see cooperation with dunefolk as more profitable. Since both saurians and naga are not only opportunistic in their alliances but also of similar lizard-y temperament, it seems natural to me that they cooperate easily.

- If sides (1) and (2) gang up to attack side (3), all (3) has to do is to attack side (2) exclusively, which then has to ally itself with (3) until equilibrium is restored, because otherwise (2) would lose in the resulting 1v1 against side (1). I assume here that it is a merciless 1v1v1 struggle and that all sides are reasonable, that is, they are able to predict the consequences of their actions and have a understanding of theory of mind in relation to the other sides.

PS: You have missed the point entirely. What I am advocating is not the removal of plot/lore/story from wesnoth, but the adaption of it towards a world which facilitates conflict, that is further plot/lore/story material for future campaigns. The most common way of exploring the world/universe/plot/lore/story in "The Battle for Wesnoth" is to narrate it over the course of a military campaign.
It is equal misrepresentation to say that I advocate a world where everyone fights everyone else to the death. My comparison of the positive relations and negative relations of the different races of the southlands meant to show the overrepresentation of peaceful relations and their deleterious effect on future campaigns material.
Worldbuilding happens for a reason. In the case of BfW, the world is built to give otherwise "boring" (as you yourself stated) campaigns a story to play through. But since (vanilla) BfW is indeed a wargame, all of these stories will have include some form of military conflict or another, in order to be playable / narratable.

TL;DR:
No conflict in the world -> No campaigns to play -> No lore and story to tell
=> The world of BfW needs a sufficient amount of conflict in order to be able to narrate the lore in the campaigns.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by ghype »

Edwylm wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 7:50 pm
I would suggest that drakes are one of those that cause issues not just raiding but also having territory conflicts.
Sure
Edwylm wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 7:50 pm
The dunefolk do not have much contact with elves the further from the coasts and those deep in the deserts tend to be weary of outsiders.
need to include relations with drakes and saurians. but seeing that drakes raid dunefolk they are not on good terms.
Dunefolk have contact with elves in the south ...Along that river that connects the oasis in the desert, there will be dunefolk cities. Which are surrounded by Elves Jungles/Forests.

Dunefolk and Drakes are not on good terms and saurians do not wander in large packs in the desert, which doesnt mean they are not to be seen. They might be sole neutral individuals.
Edwylm wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 7:50 pm
Sounds like the dwarves are isolationists in general. Should have that the only dwaves explorers/line are seen outside the dwarven kingdoms
Sure
Edwylm wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 7:50 pm
I have no clue whats going on with these relations as they do not make any sense...
we have trolls allied with dwarves, elves allied with saurians. But yet we have the drakes not wanting to get involved with dwarves and trolls but willing to fight elves that are allied with the saurians with the possibility that elves might be allied with trolls too. :hmm:
Just have it that the drakes in the south being very hostile to every race. where they feel inclined to rule much like the dragons of old and they do have ideology conflicts from those from Palmiya where those drakes are more willing to coexist with other races and live more peacefully.
Dwarf/Troll and Elves/Saurian "Alliances" were suggested by Celtic, Kwanduling and supported by others. Obviosly those will be needing a lot of Lore background which is not the goal of what I am doing here. If that was subject to one of the coming dunefolk campaigns ... then yeah sure.

I'll make Drakes generally hostile to everyone. My biggest problem is that I have close to no knowledge about Drake lore or at least what their relation is towards saurians. I was thinking that the drakes on mainland are hostile to everyone, even saurians. while the one saurians from Palmiya were subjugated as they couldn't flee/leave anywhere once the drakes arrived
Edwylm wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 7:50 pm
Should have the drakes outside of Palmiya are trying to establish their own territory or expand them. there needs to be more than just "raid/hunt"
sure
Edwylm wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 7:50 pm
This in itself is also confusing mainly of what was the first things that happened when the orcs arrived :|
orcs first arrived on Palmiya we have 2 other races on the island did these 2 races helped them seeing them wash ashore or did they fight them thinking of a invasion. I'm sure the orcs on Palmiya would be the peaceful ones compared to the orcs on the mainland as the saurains and drakes would have kicked the war hungry orcs or force all orcs off live in the mainland. I can't just see saurians not be allied to the drakes of Palmiya at anytime these 2 races are living on the island. I can't see a constant war on the island as stated above but also if they were saved by the saurains and drakes they would be more inclined to fallow their rules and guidance.
I was imagining the Palmiya is big enough (and it is big and if not I can make it bigger to justify this) that the initial wave of orcs on Palmiya just didn seem to be either noticeable or causing troubles. Thick jungles would prevent them to be seen for a long time. Only once they started to make noise and for example chopping down forests for wood and rapidly increasing populations (and eventually a couple more waves of orcs), only then the lizards noticed and engaed.

My only problem is that I see not yet how drakes would function in this conflict. I could imagine that they would be enjoying just watching them and intervene just when it becomes serious. Then yet again, I am lacking drake lore to be able to judge this. Considering that Palmiya has a large Volcano, maybe the drakes they do not bother to leave that Volcano (only for hunting).

But I guess having orcs getting along with drakes/saurians on Palmiya seems fine too.
Edwylm wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 7:50 pm
if the orcs were kicked out and forced into a hostile desert like environment they might be more willingly to ally with the dunefolk that has already dealt with drakes that are hostile to them. This would be a twist as orcs would be fighting saurians and drakes and not humans or elves, though the elves would probably aid the Palmiya residence.
I would pretty much in favour to have at least one large city of orcs where they are just as terrorising as in the north. That woudl mean that we have orcs on palmiya that are allied with saurians and drakes (because they are peaceful), orc tribes that live in the desert and allied with the dunefolks (because they are peaceful) and between them the remaining Orcs that are hostile to every one (even the other orcs) just as drakes are hostile to everyone (except themselves) on the mainland.
Edwylm wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 7:50 pm
my advice is to make a web for relations or a list of nations and then work on their relationships so you can avoid contradictions.
Well, ... I could. but my goal is just to be able to finish that map. All of these conflicts and relationships would depend on time lines and bigger events which should be open to be decided by other campaigns that are UMC or may or may not end up being canon/mainlined at some time in the future. Either way, we are just setting up some framework which I then can use to re-evaluate the stories of the coming dunefolk campaigns.
Edwylm wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 12:17 am
I can see that however having the elves be exterminated would cause issues and there be 0 chances of elf and saurian friendship. Which from what I see from both CM and ghype+ community that south should have good relations with elves and Saurians. Your idea does revolve around the current lore so it does make sense.
It goes along with current lore for the north. What we are trying to do is to make new lore for the south which does not have to be align with the north, otherwise it would be the same conflicts over and over again.
Edwylm wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 12:17 am
Lastly depending on the dunefolk arrival in the area the "lizards" would have feuded with the dinefolk long before the "seeking trade wealth" part. But the long history of dunefolk is unknown/to be decided.
Well that exactly is under work - with the recent post in the lore thread. I copied it and pasted it here in a section.
Long History Of Dunefolk
OK so here is my attempt to consolidate the more recent comments regarding Dunefolks Pre-History, Origin and their use of magic.

Pre-History

note: this is mere context for Lore and Wiki. Not any of this is planned to be explored in mainline campaigns. Any of this may also be altered according to the Mainline Campaign/Lore rework currently happening if need and will not affect Dunefolk Origin or the background in their mistrust of magic.



The green isles is the origin of the human race. Many hundrets of years - maybe millennia - before the wesfolk war, a group of nomadic people emigrated westwards and arrived on the eastern shores of the great continent. (They might have crossed other island/continents on their way. We are talking about a wandering nomadic tribe over the course of denturies). Wandering deep into the the Great Continent when they eventually arrived after hundred of years on the west shores and settle there.
The other way would be that they emigrated eastwards before haldrics people left the green isle (for other reasons) and arrived at the south western shore of the Great Continent, while Haldrics people arrived centuries or millennia after that at the north western shore of the Great continent.

Origin

2000 y ago - or more - (when the dunefolk were mostly only tribes) they had periodic conflict with renegade tribes, which may be called dunefolk too as the other they have the same heritage. The dunefolk called them the Athvari (- this is a Placeholder until we find a more suitable name as this one is borrowed form Kwandulins OoA).
The Athvari were used to occupy depths of mountains and caverns scattered in the drylands, where not only encountered dwarfs with time to time - but also discovered magical crystals similarly as the dwarfs. The Athvari remarked the power behing these crystal and embedded them initially only into their weapons and later learned to how to make the crystals emit their magical power and hence cast spells from the runes. The pure joy out of them was not enough for them, so they seeked to dominate other tribes with that newly won power. Greediness over come that Athvari tribes and they tried everything to gain the control over the territories of the remaining tribes. The dwarfs at that point have sealed all their tunnels reaching the Athvari to stay out of this conflict as good as they can. However, the terror the Athvari started spread was getting too big, when the Tribes started to defend themselves, together. One powerful tribe rallied all the remaining tribes against the Athvari tribes and only that way they could merely defend themselves. But it wasn't enough to defeat them. Eventually, the dwarfs too started to get involved in this conflict as they would fear that the Athvari might return and seek more of these crystal and would breach into the dwarven Clans to get them. An alliance between the dwarves and the duenfolk tribes against the Athvari ensured that something like this would not occur again. From that point on. The dwarves felt responsible for the runes and the power that hides in them and protected these artefact as good as they could until this are of rune magic eventually got lost over centuries. With the Athvari defeated, the dunefolk could start developing into what they are today. They realised that they can support each other and benefit far more a lot if they work together. That way the first dunefolk communities were formed, which developed into the cities we know of 2day.

The aftermath of the wars between the dunefolk and the renegade tribes were devastating. These wars took place on the southern side of the cloud bay which once were open fields or dry grasslands. But once the wars were over the landscaped changed. Plants and wildlife were destroyed and certainly enough, the small dunes around the bays sure expanded southways into the mainland and over after centuries it became the ashland desert the dunefolk are inhabiting today.

The cataclysmic dispute that soured the dunefolk on magic has probably faded into myth. There are no doubt a plethora of tall tales and conflicting stories of what exactly happened, and there may be some fragmentary historical records, but no-one knows the exact details.

Dunefolk's mistrust towards Magic

Looking back, the Dunefolk may have understood the risk of unwanted consequences in the use of magic, and decided to go for the empirical and rational way of thinking.The dunefolk themselves, at all levels of government (national, municipal, tribal) emphasised the danger of magic from that time on, effectively spreading fear of its power. It's probably also necessary to identify the chief things that people used to use magic for and develop alternative non-magic ways of doing those things. The uniformity of them all is enough to convince even open-minded scholars that lifting the taboo on magic may be an invitation for disaster.

After these wars, the Luminary had time to reflect on the happenings and developed philosophies are still thought and discussed until to this day . It sounds like this:


Four elemental forces that each bleed through into the 'material plane'.

_____________The Sun_____________
________The Seas -- The Winds______
____________The Deeps____________

The Sun bleeds through and creates the scorched deserts.
The Seas bleed through and create the fertile coasts and river valleys.
The Winds bleed through and create the windswept highlands.
The Deeps bleed through and create the mineral-rich underground.

The Aether has been suggested by some Dunefolk scholars as a fifth 'elemental force' that bleeds through into the 'material plane'. Rather than bleeding through into one environment, the Aether bleeds through throughout the world, granting the sentient species of Irdya the power to harness magic; however, it also leads to the creation of unnatural abominations - most particularly, ghosts.

This is not a widely-accepted theory. Rather, magic is seen as an unnatural force outside of the 'great circle', and is therefore generally feared and even hated.

Cultists would subscribe to the theory that Aether is an 'elemental force', and so would want to bring it into their conception of the 'great circle' and harness its power, much as the Dunefolk are willing to harness fertile lands and valuable metals.

The Luminaries would subscribe to the theory that Aether is a corruption, and so would want to keep it outlawed.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Edwylm »

ghype wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 7:41 am

Obviosly those will be needing a lot of Lore background which is not the goal of what I am doing here. If that was subject to one of the coming dunefolk campaigns ... then yeah sure.

I'll make Drakes generally hostile to everyone. My biggest problem is that I have close to no knowledge about Drake lore or at least what their relation is towards saurians.

Well, ... I could. but my goal is just to be able to finish that map. All of these conflicts and relationships would depend on time lines and bigger events which should be open to be decided by other campaigns that are UMC or may or may not end up being canon/mainlined at some time in the future. Either way, we are just setting up some framework which I then can use to re-evaluate the stories of the coming dunefolk campaigns.
Well since there is a rework much of the lore is skeptical to change and we are in a different geological location which means things will be different than what we already know. Concerning the map I know its the main goal and we should work on the framework of the map however placing races on a map without justification or without thinking why is the main issue currently. If you do not work on atleast some of the basic relations than you have more problems down the line of having to go back and rework.
ghype wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 7:41 am
I was imagining the Palmiya is big enough (and it is big and if not I can make it bigger to justify this) that the initial wave of orcs on Palmiya just didn seem to be either noticeable or causing troubles. Thick jungles would prevent them to be seen for a long time. Only once they started to make noise and for example chopping down forests for wood and rapidly increasing populations (and eventually a couple more waves of orcs), only then the lizards noticed and engaed.

My only problem is that I see not yet how drakes would function in this conflict. I could imagine that they would be enjoying just watching them and intervene just when it becomes serious. Then yet again, Considering that Palmiya has a large Volcano, maybe the drakes they do not bother to leave that Volcano (only for hunting).
Well drakes in lore are in need of a updated at some point as campaigns and unit descriptions is contradicting. coming from 14.5 lore which revolves our concerns is
"While their warlike nature and sense of territory drives them to defend their territories savagely, drakes rarely invade or trespass on areas already occupied by the other major races. Instead, they settle in unpopulated areas to establish their own territory there. They primarily feed on large game they hunt in the lowlands around their homes, but hatchlings and lower caste drakes are known to feed also on certain kinds of moss and fungi they cultivate deep in their caverns."

However I can see if the orcs were washed ashore and were not noticed as seeing that drakes live on the Volcano they be able to see far and see any ships coming. And if the drakes notice their prey is becoming more sparse the drakes will take action or see an intruder and kill them.
ghype wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 7:41 am
Edwylm wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 12:17 am
I can see that however having the elves be exterminated would cause issues and there be 0 chances of elf and saurian friendship. Which from what I see from both CM and ghype+ community that south should have good relations with elves and Saurians. Your idea does revolve around the current lore so it does make sense.
It goes along with current lore for the north. What we are trying to do is to make new lore for the south which does not have to be align with the north, otherwise it would be the same conflicts over and over again.
What i mean by current lore is lore not involving the rewriting. Which like to remind that a rewriting/reworking is currently underway and everything is subjected to change but working out some of the locations and reasons with help in reworking the lore. We are able to mold the lore currently to work with what we want to go with. I'm just giving suggestions as I love working and reading lore more than the fine details of story dialogues. I wish i could help further the rewrite but all I can only give is feedback and suggestions.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

ghype wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 1:11 pm
Also I updated the map by adding undead where they should have been
What do you mean by "where they should have been"?
ghype wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 1:11 pm
adding saurians to Palmiya as that seems to make sense.
Strongly disagree. Why exactly does that make sense? I don't think it makes sense to put saurians in mountains, especially volcanic ones.
ghype wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 1:11 pm
  • 1 dwarf citiy
  • at least 1 orc city on the mainland
  • 1 orc city on Palmiya
  • 1 saurian city in the eastern jungle
Sure, that sounds okay. I do want to note though that cities aren't precisely necessary… that said, I like the idea of a saurian city, since as far as I know there are none in mainline.
ghype wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 1:11 pm
So ... what about drakes, merfolk and naga? can some one tell me if any of these 3 races have cities that should be marked on the map?
I would suggest the nagas have a city on that island near the Bay of Clouds, in the northern reaches of their territory. Perhaps one mainland city somewhere on the peninsula east of that.

Drakes don't seem like the type to build cities, somehow. Maybe they'd have one on Palmiya, or share the orc city there, but I think they'd tend to live in smaller settlements.

I dunno about merfolk. The could have a city, but we don't necessarily need to pinpoint its location. After all, it's probably underwater.
MoonyDragon wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 3:44 pm
It started with my dislike for current form of dunefolk city politics, which is a confederation where all of their paragons (=kings) are subject to one overlord... in perpetuity.
What the heck are you talking about? There is no "one overlord" in the current dunefolk political proposal, and the paragons are certainly not kings (or dictators by any name).
MoonyDragon wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 3:44 pm
Mentions of positive relations:
* dunefolk get along with nagas and dwarves
* dwarves get along with trolls
* drakes do not bother trolls and dwarves
* dwarves and elves have no contact
* elves get along with woses, merfolk, saurians and trolls (!)
* merfolk get along with saurians
* nagas do not interfere in saurian-orcish conflicts
* saurians and drakes are on good terms
* smaller orc tribes want to live in peace (!) and cooperate with dunefolk
* nagas barely have enemies due to their dunefolk alliance
Some of these notes exist to emphasize a different set of interracial dynamics from the north. These include dwarf/troll, elf/saurian, and dunefolk/naga relations. However, I do kinda understand what you're getting at. We could leave more of the relations unspecified - they might be good sometimes, then turn sour all of a sudden for any number of reasons.

Some of the good relations you list could be easily dispensed with:
  • Perhaps some of the drakes covet the dwarven mountains, and every so often decide to try and seize a particular mountain peak.
  • Dwarves and elves may have no contact most of the time, but that doesn't mean their relations are good, exactly. What happens if a band of dwarves is somehow stranded in the jungle, or a band of elves is stranded in the mountains? These two would never go to war on the basis of territory, mind you… but they might go to war for other reasons.
  • Elves getting along with trolls is a bit unusual.
  • Maybe the nagas do sometimes interfere in saurian-orc conflicts. They might pick sides (but not consistently favouring one side over the other), or they might try to play a mediator role.
  • I actually think saurians and drakes should be on poor terms, in order to vary the interracial dynamics of the north.
  • Nagas being allied with dunefolk doesn't mean they have no enemies. Perhaps the drakes of the northwest mountains don't really like them for some reason, or maybe the drakes just want that peninsula.
On the other hand, some of them I think should be kept to vary the interracial dynamics compared to the north:
  • Dunefolk are allied with nagas; that's already established.
  • Dunefolk and dwarf trading relations… well, this could go either way, but I'm leaning in favour of it because the dwarves definitely have things the dunefolk could want, and the dunefolk probably have things the dwarves might want, so it makes sense.
  • Dwarves being on good terms with trolls is a cool twist on the northern relations. Perhaps the dwarves employ trolls for some tasks in their mines.
  • Elves getting along with woses is pretty much a given. Merfolk is a bit less clear, though…
  • Trade between merfolk and saurians is quite different from the north, where merfolk mainly have contact with humans, so it makes the setting more interesting.
  • Smaller orc tribes wishing to live in peace are a good way to emphasize that the culture of the southern orcs is very different.
I'll also note that saying "races X and Y are engaged in trade" does not mean that the relations can't sometimes blow up and turn to violent conflict.
Hejnewar wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 4:16 pm
* dwarves get along with trolls
* drakes do not bother trolls and dwarves
* nagas do not interfere in saurian-orcish conflicts
* smaller orc tribes want to live in peace (!) and cooperate with dunefolk

I would cross these out because they make not too much sense.
  1. Hejnewar wrote:
    April 26th, 2020, 4:16 pm
    Dwarves and trolls are usually enemies.
    This is true… in the north. That's precisely the reason I'd like to change it for the southern dwarves and trolls, to vary things up.
  2. Hejnewar wrote:
    April 26th, 2020, 4:16 pm
    Drakes bother everyone.
    Sure, that seems fair.
  3. Hejnewar wrote:
    April 26th, 2020, 4:16 pm
    Nagas can be with both dunefolk and orc and don't need to be categorised as one race but as many tribes, some can side with orcs, some with dunefolk.
    It's true that nagas don't need to be united - the swamp nagas for example probably have nothing to do with the Bay of Clouds nagas. The dunefolk alliance is with the Bay of Clouds nagas.
  4. Hejnewar wrote:
    April 26th, 2020, 4:16 pm
    Smaller orc tribes have no choice.
    I think this is kinda beside the point. If they had no choice, and they didn't simply want to live in peace, they would probably be super aggressive.
Edwylm wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 7:50 pm
Just have it that the drakes in the south being very hostile to every race. where they feel inclined to rule much like the dragons of old and they do have ideology conflicts from those from Palmiya where those drakes are more willing to coexist with other races and live more peacefully.
This is actually a pretty good idea.






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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by MoonyDragon »

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 6:22 pm
MoonyDragon wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 3:44 pm
It started with my dislike for current form of dunefolk city politics, which is a confederation where all of their paragons (=kings) are subject to one overlord... in perpetuity.
What the heck are you talking about? There is no "one overlord" in the current dunefolk political proposal, and the paragons are certainly not kings (or dictators by any name).
I was referring to this version of politics, though the current (afaik) form of government goes even more in that direction. I felt such high levels of arbitration and control to be somewhat artificial, and citicized the lack of open conflict (warfare) which it would imply. As for the topic of conflict, I explained by opinion in my previous posts above. I only intend to clarify what I meant.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Xalzar »

MoonyDragon wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 3:44 pm
It started with my dislike for current form of dunefolk city politics, which is a confederation where all of their paragons (=kings) are subject to one overlord... in perpetuity.
I wouldn't worry so much. That would be only their politics when things go well, but I can easily imagine periods of instability where the unity of the cities fractures, or even rebellious cities (even in solid federations there are demands for autonomy and nationalistic movements).
After all, it's not easy to mobilize reprisal armies across the desert if a city rebels, so strong secessionist cities could remain independent for a while (think about Elensefar in the North, less isolated and still manages to avoid the grasp of the kingdom of Wesnoth for centuries), and cause conflict.
Other things that could happen are a weak council with a dictatorial Paragon, and the formation of a resistance against the development into a de facto kingdom, or maybe some alliance of cities which cause a divide in the harmony of the federation because of conflicting interests.

Finally, let's not forget we have nomad tribes of Dunefolk, which are even more free to practice their own politics and could even resort to banditry.

The kingdom of Wesnoth is quite stable, but it doesn't seem to lack motives of conflict, no? ;)

---

About Orcs in the west, I'm still not quite convinced by the motive of their presence there. If they really should be there, could we come up with a credible explanation?
Tangent: I searched the open topics of Developer discussion for the new story of the origins of humans and the new plans for the Green Isle, to no avail. I've only found old post about the general reorganization of campaigns. Are we sure that the Green Isle now it's the native place of all humans?
On topic again, are we sure we want to have Orcs, closely controlled by a Lich Lord - who I think cares enough about the army he needs to retrieve the Ruby -, scatter so easily so off-course and land in the Southlands, to remain there for centuries with no rumor about them reaching Wesnoth?
About Asheviere's possible expedition into the South, why should she use much-needed troops which help her keep her in power and also why should she entrust such a mission to mercenary Orcs who could bail on her?
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 6:22 pm
ghype wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 1:11 pm
Also I updated the map by adding undead where they should have been
What do you mean by "where they should have been"?
As I mentioned before, they could be there or not, depends probably on the time period considered, but at one point they surely were in those locations
- as said by the Eastern Invasion campaign (I seriously think the Bitter Swamp IS the one place as close as possible to an Undead capital in the Great Continent;
- as assumed in the South Guard, with the story of Mal M'brin and the fact that it is forbidden for Elves to enter the Black Forest - why's that? Dark forces most probably, and we have already an Elf necromancer... In this case I can see other, alternative dark factions living there ("natural" undead created by an autonomous dark source? corrupted elves? dark elves? evil monsters? evil spirits? demons? aliens? 8) )
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

MoonyDragon wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 9:12 pm
* Millenia ago, elves and woses inhabit the island, building great cities and entertaining an elaborate culture.
Kinda weird for elves to be living in the mountains, but I guess if they're low mountains it can work. Doesn't seem like there's room for a lot of "great cities" on the island though.
MoonyDragon wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 9:12 pm
* Dragons, drakes and saurians invaded and fought a brutal war against the elves.
Dragons? Why dragons? Also, why are the drakes and saurians working together in the distant past? As far as I'm aware, they should've been unaware of each other back then (plus saurians had their own empire). Just because they're both reptilian doesn't mean they automatically go together.
MoonyDragon wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 9:12 pm
* The elves were exterminated and the lizard races took over their habitat. Their cities were reduced to ruins. Woses survived in hiding.
Just noting that woses surviving in hiding necessitates some remaining forest. Without forest, I don't think a wose would survive for very long.
MoonyDragon wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 9:12 pm
* Orcs arrive by the sea (expedition by Asheviere? Pursuers of Haldric I?) and come into conflict with the lizard races.
* Dunefolk arrive by the sea (seeking profitable spices) and come into conflict with the other two factions.
Uh sure why not.
MoonyDragon wrote:
April 26th, 2020, 9:12 pm
No side completely dominates, and so intrigue and politics reign supreme on that island instead. If any side gets some advantage, the others will conspire to preserve the balance of power... until some other event tips the balance otherwise. Each side needs one enemy to hold off the other :D
As you can see, it's all about blood for the blood gods, as it should be in a game about war. It is something like this (and the videos I have posted above), how I imagine the relations between different races and dunefolk cities to be on the mainland.
Well, I kinda get your point, but rather than orcs / dunefolk+naga / saurians+drakes, why not make the three factions drakes / dunefolk+orcs / saurians? That said, from the map I still don't quite understand why the saurians would even want the island.
Edwylm wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 12:17 am
I can see that however having the elves be exterminated would cause issues and there be 0 chances of elf and saurian friendship.
I don't think that needs to be true. Just because their distant ancestors killed each other doesn't mean they can't get along now.
Edwylm wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 12:17 am
Which from what I see from both CM and ghype+ community that south should have good relations with elves and Saurians. Your idea does revolve around the current lore so it does make sense.
This doesn't necessarily contradict the 3-way war idea. The friendly elf-saurian relations are in the Impassable Jungle, but a Palmiya-based war wouldn't even go near there. It would be the saurians of the northwestern marshes and the elves of the southwestern jungle.

Friendly relations between the eastern elves and saurians does not necessarily mean that the western elves and saurians are also on good terms.
MoonyDragon wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 3:03 am
Same with the saurians, who are getting tired of being the underlings of the drakes and begin to see cooperation with dunefolk as more profitable.
As far as I can tell this is based on a false premise. The saurians have never been underlings of the drakes. In the north, there is cooperation between saurians and drakes, true. You could even read that as drakes dominating the saurians, though as far as I know drakes don't do as well in the saurians' favoured terrains. But this is not the north. Pre-existing known relationships between races don't really apply.
MoonyDragon wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 3:03 am
TL;DR:
No conflict in the world -> No campaigns to play -> No lore and story to tell
=> The world of BfW needs a sufficient amount of conflict in order to be able to narrate the lore in the campaigns.
I feel like this argument is a bit disingenuous, as conflict does not necessarily require the nations to be at war, and even a seemingly peaceful setting can engender conflict.
ghype wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 7:41 am
I'll make Drakes generally hostile to everyone.
This is perhaps going a bit to far in my opinion. I'd rather say they're not explicitly aligned with any other faction, which doesn't necessarily mean hostilities, but also doesn't mean a lack of hostilities. Of course we can also call out some specific hostilities involving drakes, if we want.
ghype wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 7:41 am
My biggest problem is that I have close to no knowledge about Drake lore or at least what their relation is towards saurians.
This is the south, so MP factions need not apply. There could be no particular relationship between drakes and saurians, though since they do live nearby, I suppose a total lack of contact is unlikely.
ghype wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 7:41 am
while the one saurians from Palmiya were subjugated as they couldn't flee/leave anywhere once the drakes arrived
Okay, but why were the saurians on mountainous Palmiya in the first place?
ghype wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 7:41 am
I was imagining the Palmiya is big enough (and it is big and if not I can make it bigger to justify this) that the initial wave of orcs on Palmiya just didn seem to be either noticeable or causing troubles. Thick jungles would prevent them to be seen for a long time. Only once they started to make noise and for example chopping down forests for wood and rapidly increasing populations (and eventually a couple more waves of orcs), only then the lizards noticed and engaed.

My only problem is that I see not yet how drakes would function in this conflict. I could imagine that they would be enjoying just watching them and intervene just when it becomes serious. Then yet again, I am lacking drake lore to be able to judge this. Considering that Palmiya has a large Volcano, maybe the drakes they do not bother to leave that Volcano (only for hunting).

But I guess having orcs getting along with drakes/saurians on Palmiya seems fine too.
You're probably right about Palmiya's size, the scale is kinda confusing on this map honestly. I have no particular opinion about drake/orc relations n the island. If the drakes prefer the peaks and the orcs prefer the lower slopes, I suppose it's possible they tend not to interact.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

MoonyDragon wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 9:19 pm
I was referring to this version of politics, though the current (afaik) form of government goes even more in that direction. I felt such high levels of arbitration and control to be somewhat artificial, and citicized the lack of open conflict (warfare) which it would imply.
Huh? Neither version has a "one overlord" or dictator-Paragon.
Xalzar wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 11:31 pm
On topic again, are we sure we want to have Orcs, closely controlled by a Lich Lord - who I think cares enough about the army he needs to retrieve the Ruby -, scatter so easily so off-course and land in the Southlands, to remain there for centuries with no rumor about them reaching Wesnoth?
I assume this would most likely happen after the lich lord is gone, but in theory if the ships are thrown astray in a storm and they don't even know how to get back, I suppose it could happen even while the lich lord is still around…
Xalzar wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 11:31 pm
About Asheviere's possible expedition into the South, why should she use much-needed troops which help her keep her in power and also why should she entrust such a mission to mercenary Orcs who could bail on her?
I don't think an Asheviere expedition makes any sense, just for the record.
Xalzar wrote:
April 27th, 2020, 11:31 pm
As I mentioned before, they could be there or not, depends probably on the time period considered, but at one point they surely were in those locations
- as said by the Eastern Invasion campaign (I seriously think the Bitter Swamp IS the one place as close as possible to an Undead capital in the Great Continent;
- as assumed in the South Guard, with the story of Mal M'brin and the fact that it is forbidden for Elves to enter the Black Forest - why's that? Dark forces most probably, and we have already an Elf necromancer... In this case I can see other, alternative dark factions living there ("natural" undead created by an autonomous dark source? corrupted elves? dark elves? evil monsters? evil spirits? demons? aliens? 8) )
Okay, I suppose that kinda makes sense. That said, I suspect the case of Mal M'brin was more of a short-lived thing…
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
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