Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

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Edwylm
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Edwylm »

Well the maps have improved. the desert could expand in between the mountains but i would suggest what surrounds the ashland desert is semi-arid desert or dry steppe climate. it could be included as part of the ashland desert but the environment isn't has harsh as a full desert. still supporting nomadic life style and able to support villages/towns in curtain areas. It would also have wild camels and possibly horses and other animals that might be used/hunted by the dunefolk.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by ghype »

Celtic_Minstrel wrote: April 16th, 2020, 12:33 pm would suggest that perhaps the Cloud River originates beyond the desert, maybe even beyond the eastern edge of the map.
I can do that (and it was done in one of the drafts of the older threads) but it won't be shown in any worldmaps I plan to make. But I will fill that space over the border just for references when anyone else wants to continue.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote: April 16th, 2020, 12:33 pm I see you've turned Kesh into a desert city too.
I actually always have been. kind of. If you see kwandulins map from OoA, then it is at the border with desert to hills. Actually I will try to stay as close as possible to that map so I don't have redo it as it already was beautifully done. Here is is incase you missed it.
map
ooa_bigmap.png
Celtic_Minstrel wrote: April 16th, 2020, 12:33 pm Are we abandoning the idea of twin mountains in the middle of the desert, with an oasis that possibly feeds a river linking to Arghraba and Al-Shirizad? Will Al-Shirizad be at the desert's edge in this map, or on the coast? What kind of biome is the light brown in the south, anyway?
Not yet, those were details I just haven't brought in. I will bring them back in the next version. Generally speaking I am thinking that we are lacking some new terrain. With the Wesnoth versions, we now have jungle terrain and savanna terrain, which we did not have had back when wesnoth maps were created. So I think its time to introduce them also in the big maps (in one way or another).

Currently the empty spaces are a the same light brown as in wesnoth, as were in wesnoth it stands for grassland or farm land (probably).
For the expansions I will turn will make the jungle forests darker (or better said I will choose a lighter hue for the normal forests) asswell introduce maybe an orange coloured terrain for the savannah's (I was thinking of something like this) which could be adjacent to the desert and hills.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

ghype wrote: April 16th, 2020, 5:51 pm
Celtic_Minstrel wrote: April 16th, 2020, 12:33 pm Are we abandoning the idea of twin mountains in the middle of the desert, with an oasis that possibly feeds a river linking to Arghraba and Al-Shirizad? Will Al-Shirizad be at the desert's edge in this map, or on the coast? What kind of biome is the light brown in the south, anyway?
Not yet, those were details I just haven't brought in. I will bring them back in the next version. Generally speaking I am thinking that we are lacking some new terrain. With the Wesnoth versions, we now have jungle terrain and savanna terrain, which we did not have had back when wesnoth maps were created. So I think its time to introduce them also in the big maps (in one way or another).

Currently the empty spaces are a the same light brown as in wesnoth, as were in wesnoth it stands for grassland or farm land (probably).
For the expansions I will turn will make the jungle forests darker (or better said I will choose a lighter hue for the normal forests) asswell introduce maybe an orange coloured terrain for the savannah's (I was thinking of something like this) which could be adjacent to the desert and hills.
Um, biome is a little different from terrain, though I guess you managed to answer my question anyway – savannah is a biome. If I recall correctly, isn't there already a dry grass terrain? I think that with a few trees sprinkled here and there would be sufficient for savannah (why would savannah be orange? Unless we're thinking of a different orange). Well… maybe we'd need some new trees, though. Jungle, deciduous, and palm trees aren't the most suitable; the great trees could work though.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by ghype »

So here is the next version.

I re-introduced the oasis and made redraw the river to go through Argrhaba up to Al-Shizirad. I spent a lot of time thinking on how to continue the Cloud river and decided to not dwell too much into that direction. Such a big river would spawn probably from a mega mountain formation in the east. But as said, I didn't want to go that far. So I only hinted the continuation.

While I was thinking on how to continue the cloud river, I remembered about this map in the older thread. So I made a little more expansion based on that - which so to say could be considered canon as well. I am aware that that reference map is old and some terrains changed proportionally when making the world maps. But again as far as the expansion to the northern east is concerned, that should be canon as well. It is marked with the dotted line.


New Irdya-10.png

Edwylm wrote: April 16th, 2020, 3:29 pm the desert could expand in between the mountains but i would suggest what surrounds the ashland desert is semi-arid desert or dry steppe climate.
I did that now to some degree. I don't think it should go deeper then it currently does.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote: April 17th, 2020, 12:35 am Um, biome is a little different from terrain, though I guess you managed to answer my question anyway – savannah is a biome. If I recall correctly, isn't there already a dry grass terrain? I think that with a few trees sprinkled here and there would be sufficient for savannah (why would savannah be orange? Unless we're thinking of a different orange). Well… maybe we'd need some new trees, though. Jungle, deciduous, and palm trees aren't the most suitable; the great trees could work though.
Yes, your right. after thinking some more about it, I don't think it is necessarily to mark such dryland on the map. It's just asummed.
I also did not marked the jungles with a new hue of green. It looked wrong

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One thing I just now realised is that we really should include some swamps for the nagas, or not?
I would also change the names between the jungles so the western jungle is called "Jungle Of Death" and the eastern jungle would be "Impassable Jungle" which would make sense because of the delta - and especially more so if we add swamps.

For that I we will have to talk about southern nagas a bit (which I will do in the dunefolk Lore thread as well). The Jungels are good places to have swamps and if not them I also considered to make the central southern coast swampy (where the two smaller jungles are now). Either way, I suppose that the southern hemisphere will have a lot of saurians as well. So the two jungles are good fit to introduce swamps



EDIT:



If not nagas, then the swamps in the jungles might serve a good dynamic for saurians and elves.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

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ghype wrote: April 17th, 2020, 8:53 am One thing I just now realised is that we really should include some swamps for the nagas, or not?
For that I we will have to talk about southern nagas a bit (which I will do in the dunefolk Lore thread as well). The Jungels are good places to have swamps and if not them I also considered to make the central southern coast swampy (where the two smaller jungles are now). Either way, I suppose that the southern hemisphere will have a lot of saurians as well. So the two jungles are good fit to introduce swamps
If not nagas, then the swamps in the jungles might serve a good dynamic for saurians and elves.
Good thinking.

For now, all I have to say is that we should think about the size of the Jungle of Death. I'm all for massive and mysterious rainforests, but perhaps it diminishes the supposed "vast and impenetrable" Lintanir Forest in the north.
I know that all could be explained by limited geographical knowledge or the exaggeration of myths, we should just decide which forest is truly the biggest.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote: April 17th, 2020, 12:35 am Um, biome is a little different from terrain, though I guess you managed to answer my question anyway – savannah is a biome. If I recall correctly, isn't there already a dry grass terrain? I think that with a few trees sprinkled here and there would be sufficient for savannah (why would savannah be orange? Unless we're thinking of a different orange). Well… maybe we'd need some new trees, though. Jungle, deciduous, and palm trees aren't the most suitable; the great trees could work though.
Indeed dry grass terrain exists and it's perfect for savannahs. We also have savannah trees already: https://wiki.wesnoth.org/TerrainCodeTableWML
If you mean that we need a sort of Baobab, yes - we should use some Great Tree variations in general and one of them could be a chunky baobab-like tree.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by ghype »

Xalzar wrote: April 17th, 2020, 10:45 am For now, all I have to say is that we should think about the size of the Jungle of Death. I'm all for massive and mysterious rainforests, but perhaps it diminishes the supposed "vast and impenetrable" Lintanir Forest in the north.
I know that all could be explained by limited geographical knowledge or the exaggeration of myths, we should just decide which forest is truly the biggest.
My thought that was that some of what currently is green could be turned into swamp, especially around the delta. Thats also what I ment with a dynamic between saurians and southern elves.

Xalzar wrote: April 17th, 2020, 10:45 am If you mean that we need a sort of Baobab, yes - we should use some Great Tree variations in general and one of them could be a chunky baobab-like tree.
I took a note on that. Once It comes to make custom art for such a campaign, I will try to make some.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Kwandulin »

The map is looking nice! Maybe we can add some minor isles along the coast? The coastline looks suspiciously odd in comparison to the coast of the northlands.

Having some known races in the south sounds good. They should differ form their northern brothers, though.

Southern Saurians might use less cold magic, but more poison, because the dunefolk alchemist also uses poisonous herbs that are apparently in the south?
The dwarves there could not rely on rune magic, but maybe on animal taming (bear riders or gryphon riders and improved ones? ) or maybe they found a mysterious metal that only exists in the southern mountains which allows them to craft. We still have the nice clockwork sprites by Zerovirus.

I am against putting the same biocenosis that is already all over the rest of the continent on the south.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

ghype wrote: April 17th, 2020, 8:53 am So here is the next version.

I re-introduced the oasis and made redraw the river to go through Argrhaba up to Al-Shizirad. I spent a lot of time thinking on how to continue the Cloud river and decided to not dwell too much into that direction. Such a big river would spawn probably from a mega mountain formation in the east. But as said, I didn't want to go that far. So I only hinted the continuation.

While I was thinking on how to continue the cloud river, I remembered about this map in the older thread. So I made a little more expansion based on that - which so to say could be considered canon as well. I am aware that that reference map is old and some terrains changed proportionally when making the world maps. But again as far as the expansion to the northern east is concerned, that should be canon as well. It is marked with the dotted line.
So now Arghraba is a desert border city, okay. There'd certainly be more towns further up the river, too. And I notice you also added in the Amazon River of Wesnoth. :P

No opinion on the extra-large lake further north.
ghype wrote: April 17th, 2020, 8:53 am One thing I just now realised is that we really should include some swamps for the nagas, or not?
Including some swamps is fine, but I don't think of the naga as swamp-dwellers.
ghype wrote: April 17th, 2020, 8:53 am I would also change the names between the jungles so the western jungle is called "Jungle Of Death" and the eastern jungle would be "Impassable Jungle" which would make sense because of the delta - and especially more so if we add swamps.
Yeah, it does make more sense for the "Impassable Jungle" to be the inland one.
Xalzar wrote: April 17th, 2020, 10:45 am If you mean that we need a sort of Baobab, yes - we should use some Great Tree variations in general and one of them could be a chunky baobab-like tree.
I wasn't thinking of a baobab, no, more something like the savannah trees. I didn't know those were there. Still, a baobab is a nice idea.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Edwylm »

Kwandulin wrote: April 17th, 2020, 12:17 pm Having some known races in the south sounds good. They should differ form their northern brothers, though.

Southern Saurians might use less cold magic, but more poison, because the dunefolk alchemist also uses poisonous herbs that are apparently in the south?
The dwarves there could not rely on rune magic, but maybe on animal taming (bear riders or gryphon riders and improved ones? ) or maybe they found a mysterious metal that only exists in the southern mountains which allows them to craft. We still have the nice clockwork sprites by Zerovirus.

I am against putting the same biocenosis that is already all over the rest of the continent on the south.
We do have a great variety of units already made.
era of magic, Saurian/Dark Blood Alliance would be perfect for the jungles regions. Cyclopes could be the "ogres" of the region, the orcs could work.
The Extended Era some units could be used but I feel they are not from the southern regions. Besides the Steppe Orcs as their clothing would suggest warmer climate but note deserts are cold/cool at night so they might want to wear warmer clothing. Dark elves could also be in this region.
Feudal Clockwork Dwarves, EoM Runemasters,or other advanced dwarves. But one thing to keep in mind would be that dunefolk are scientific peoples too. So what be preventing them from copying dwarven works?

But if we don't use already made sprites/races than coming up with units is going to be more work.
some questions would be;
Was there a civilization before the dunefolk?
Does the dunefolk have a race they don't like or a race that does not like them?
What are dunefolk relations with other races? i would assume they would dislike any race that is magical or uses magic.
How do the other races interact with each other?
What prevents nagas and Saurians from taking over the desert regions?
Why do the Dunefolk prefer to live in the region and not trying to expand into the jungles or other regions?

Could create a "desert variant wose" or cacti wose.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by lhybrideur »

Edwylm wrote: April 17th, 2020, 8:11 pm Could create a "desert variant wose" or cacti wose.
Image ?
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

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Xalzar wrote: April 17th, 2020, 10:45 am For now, all I have to say is that we should think about the size of the Jungle of Death. I'm all for massive and mysterious rainforests, but perhaps it diminishes the supposed "vast and impenetrable" Lintanir Forest in the north.
I will most likely re-design both jungles and add swamp to both of them either in the jungel (which could be interesting) or next to it. Due to that the both jungle might be getting a bit smaller.
Kwandulin wrote: April 17th, 2020, 12:17 pm The map is looking nice! Maybe we can add some minor isles along the coast? The coastline looks suspiciously odd in comparison to the coast of the northlands.
The coast lines will get more detailed once I do the world map for the game. Right now this is more or less a template.
Kwandulin wrote: April 17th, 2020, 12:17 pm Having some known races in the south sounds good. They should differ form their northern brothers, though.
Edwylm wrote: April 17th, 2020, 8:11 pm We do have a great variety of units already made.
While I do support to have more unique variations leading roles of factions we know from northern parts of the Great Continent, I think they should be campaign-only, before we get ahead of ourselves. And what unique variations of such units will end up being featured will strongly depend on what factions appear in such campaign.

But yes ... we have a big pool too choose from when it comes to that.
And yes, there are already wose cacti made (and animated) but I they feel a bit off or almost forced. That Cacti would be considered wose and I am not competent to say how lore friendly such wose cacti would be. Yumi has just two unrelated wose mentions in her rewritten Lore. I think Wose deserve a subsection. Anyway ...
Edwylm wrote: April 17th, 2020, 8:11 pm Was there a civilization before the dunefolk?
Does the dunefolk have a race they don't like or a race that does not like them?
What are dunefolk relations with other races? i would assume they would dislike any race that is magical or uses magic.
How do the other races interact with each other?
What prevents nagas and Saurians from taking over the desert regions?
Why do the Dunefolk prefer to live in the region and not trying to expand into the jungles or other regions?


These are all good questions which I have to keep a note on in the other thread for Lore Consolidation.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote: April 17th, 2020, 12:29 pm There'd certainly be more towns further up the river, too.
They will be added along with the localised and wandering tribes once the Terrains are finalised to some degree
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

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Edwylm wrote: April 17th, 2020, 8:11 pm We do have a great variety of units already made.
era of magic, Saurian/Dark Blood Alliance would be perfect for the jungles regions. Cyclopes could be the "ogres" of the region, the orcs could work.
The Extended Era some units could be used but I feel they are not from the southern regions. Besides the Steppe Orcs as their clothing would suggest warmer climate but note deserts are cold/cool at night so they might want to wear warmer clothing. Dark elves could also be in this region.
Feudal Clockwork Dwarves, EoM Runemasters,or other advanced dwarves. But one thing to keep in mind would be that dunefolk are scientific peoples too. So what be preventing them from copying dwarven works?
I'd hesitate to include any units from add-on eras. Not saying we can't, just that it should happen only after very careful consideration and probably some tweaks.
Edwylm wrote: April 17th, 2020, 8:11 pm Was there a civilization before the dunefolk?
Not sure why this matters… it's a cool thing to know but we don't need to figure it out.
Edwylm wrote: April 17th, 2020, 8:11 pm Does the dunefolk have a race they don't like or a race that does not like them?
How about the jinn?
Edwylm wrote: April 17th, 2020, 8:11 pm What are dunefolk relations with other races? i would assume they would dislike any race that is magical or uses magic.
Personally I think they actually get along fairly well with trolls. I think they have pretty good relations with nagas in the Bay of Clouds and dwarves/trolls in nearby mountain ranges. I'm not sure what else would be in the region; orcs are unlikely. There could be elves in the jungle, and they could have minimal contact with the northern elves in the forest just beyond the Sandy Wastes, but I feel they probably wouldn't have good relations with either of those. There might be saurians around, perhaps to the south or east, with which they have either cordial relations or a history of conflict.

I don't think there's any need to come up with any completely new sentient races.
Edwylm wrote: April 17th, 2020, 8:11 pm How do the other races interact with each other?
For the most part I think most other races the dunefolk have contact with would be isolated from each other, except for trolls and dwarves which could be on good terms. (Sure, that's different from trolls and dwarves in the north, but I think it's cool for the relationship between races to not be a fixed thing.) Also, there might be good elf-saurian relations.
Edwylm wrote: April 17th, 2020, 8:11 pm What prevents nagas and Saurians from taking over the desert regions?
I think it's likely that both races are more sensitive to the heat than humans, and saurians may also require more water than humans do.
Edwylm wrote: April 17th, 2020, 8:11 pm Why do the Dunefolk prefer to live in the region and not trying to expand into the jungles or other regions?
Probably the jungles are also quite dangerous, or maybe there are elves there that would respond violently if they attempted to take over.
Edwylm wrote: April 17th, 2020, 8:11 pm Could create a "desert variant wose" or cacti wose.
I think the idea is fine but I don't think it should be called a "wose" – it should be an entirely separate thing.
ghype wrote: April 18th, 2020, 9:56 am And yes, there are already wose cacti made (and animated) but I they feel a bit off or almost forced. That Cacti would be considered wose and I am not competent to say how lore friendly such wose cacti would be. Yumi has just two unrelated wose mentions in her rewritten Lore. I think Wose deserve a subsection. Anyway ...
Yeah, if there's a mobile cactus it probably needs a completely new sprite.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

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Celtic_Minstrel wrote: April 18th, 2020, 2:31 pm I'd hesitate to include any units from add-on eras. Not saying we can't, just that it should happen only after very careful consideration and probably some tweaks.

I don't think there's any need to come up with any completely new sentient races.
I agree about taking units from add-ons and adding in new races are not needed and will just add more work. Taking using from add-ons would be viewed as "easy way" out or simply a stand in until you get new unit sprite ideas for units. However if we want to slightly change unit looks it needs to be believable so that the 2 differences are still the same race. So having Saurians having horns instead of spines with skin is a bit much unless lore. Having a change in color and weapons is ok.

But the units can be worked on more within the campaigns surrounding the this region.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote: April 18th, 2020, 2:31 pm Not sure why this matters… it's a cool thing to know but we don't need to figure it out.
well there are "ruins" so not sure if there would be just dunefolk or elf, dwarven or some unknown civilization which might change their aspects or technology. Along if they had to compete with the inhabitants in the past. its minor but it does add context to their involvement in the area.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

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Edwylm wrote: April 18th, 2020, 8:43 pm well there are "ruins" so not sure if there would be just dunefolk or elf, dwarven or some unknown civilization which might change their aspects or technology. Along if they had to compete with the inhabitants in the past. its minor but it does add context to their involvement in the area.
Oh, the ruins. Well… it could be a fallen/abandoned dunefolk city, of course. Or maybe a saurian or elven city that pre-dates desertification. As far as I know, saurians don't currently build cities, but perhaps they did in the past.
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by ghype »

So here is current version, which is getting closer a more refined version.

The big chunks for forest shrunk but we have smaller ones scattered around. We have two swamps now as well.
I also approximately selected few places where cities could be without them being too close or too far from each other.
The names are also suggestions, so if someone doesn't like the name of one of these cities, please make notice so we can find better ones together.
I remarked that elven cities do no appear on the world maps, so I left them out. I however gave the one swamp a city for the lizards, maybe a main gathering places where a big population is without having to call it a city.

If we have drake in south part, than they would have their own cities. Probably up in the moutnains. Similarly would have the Dwarves.
There should be at least one bigger orc encampment. So if one could suggest me where those could be, that would be a help.

Also I was thinking on the traveling routes of the dunefolk. Either they travel (1) through the mainland using the river until the oasis and then footway or (2) sail around to the Bay of Clouds. If we would go with (1), it means that route would be "busy" and I don't know how much I would like it. There would ahve to be some port, which probably would result into a city.

Next step would be to find a way to mark the tribes and their routes. If at the oasis is no (port-)city, then there should be at least few tribes there.


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