Dunefolk Rework - Extra Units

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ghype
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Dunefolk Rework - Extra Units

Post by ghype » March 25th, 2019, 8:14 pm




Development

Development of this thread is finished for the moment. Might post some updates if needed but all I planned for Dunefolk's Extra Units was done. Here you can see the final state of the units developed in this thread.


__Display DF #2019_5.png


Skirmisher Lv1 - 7A
- bottom body needs work (legs, skirt, feet, …)
- hair + headwear needs improvements
- darker outlines
- potentially remove leg pads or improve shading
- TC missing


Strider Lv2 - 7B
- reducing size 1px or 2px
- clean up skirt and arms
- remove details belly
- arm/shield does not look 100% right
- rework the entire skirt
- TC missing

- clean up the spear tip

Harrier Lv3 - 7C
- sprite entirely missing
- clean up the spear tip
- elongate staff
- fix shading on left shoe
- potentially rework the entire skirt
- reconsider shoes/leg position
- TC missing

Naga Slasher Lv2 - 6F
- fix recolouring
- potentially redraw bow

Naga Executioner Lv3 - 6G
- recolour
- fix shoulder pad perspective
- clean up / improve body straps
- clean up blades
- potentially redraw bow


Naga Ringcaster Lv2 and - 7F
- sprites entirely missing
- add shadow
- fix recolour properly
- recolour clothing

Naga Bladewind Lv3 - 7G
- add shadow
- add TC arm rings
- fix recolour properly
- recolour clothing
- attach blades to chakram







Introduction

As mentioned in so the balance threads, we decided to remove some of the old base units from Dunefolk and add new ones in order to fill the missing roles. Well, probably thats what we spent time most on - deciding what unit would fill those missing roles the best. We had many versions were the unit we thought of was really good but then we found one that is even better. There have been dozens of considerations but most of the time we had to do the art from scratch in order to fit the purpose of that unit. Here is a display of the unit that we all considered (hence we did a draft sprite for each), ultimately were not chosen as they weren’t 100% filling that unit role. The purpose of the display is to show how much we actually worked on this. The units on the left were made by me and the others were as the Wyvern Rider (G3) was made by Sleepwalker and the Giant Roc (G/F1) by Vyncyn. My personal favourite must have been the Giant Lizard/Rider in the 3rd row but again … none of these made the final cut.

Here is a display with all the units I just talked about:
Scrapped Ideas
__Display Extra Units.png


Now let’s talk about those who made it into the final cut. For those who read the balance thread, you might have an idea what the extra units might look like.

Water Control - Naga


naga-blight-10-comaprison.png
naga-blight-10-comaprison.png (10.19 KiB) Viewed 1685 times


Remember this is only a draft, but it’s a draft that could resemble the final version a lot. The are key features that distinguish this one to the normal nagas we used to encounter so far. The idea behind this was to make it look like this naga would be is form a complete different part of the planet.

If we go and check what kind of nagas we have in mainline, we will find the Northerner Naga fighter, the UtbS Naga Guarg and the UtbS Naga Hunter. The Naga Fighter and Guard feature the same head, so if there was a new Naga added to mainline then it should have the Naga Hunter head as it differs to the other ones (the face is a bit smaller but the spikes are bigger). According to the balance thread, it should wield a blade weapon and have bow as well. For the sword we decided to go with a curved blade to make it differ from the Naga fighter. This fits also the southern theme which is applied to Dunefolk as well with their curved blades. The Naga’s curved blade is a bit more rouge-ish and could be considered almost a sickle. For the armour we said that it shouldn’t be as much armoured as the Naga Fighter which would become even more obvious on it’s lv ups. A simple shoulder pad hence is enough. So instead of quiver, why should he wear his bow on the other side?
This far it looks good, but we have two problems to deal with. The one problem is it was noticed by the others, that the Nagas right arm/side looks a bit empty. I wasn’t so sure about it, but I created a version with a shield. Note that the shield is the one the Guardian wears as the Fighters shield didn’t quiet fit. It can be altered and changed into anything else. Maybe he doesn’t have to wear a shield, maybe he can hold something else in that hand. He could hold the bow in that had and we simply put the quiver on his left shoulder. Any thoughts?
Furthermore, I myself found the colour palette for the Nagas skin too saturated, so we did a bit of recolouring. Wether you like it or not might be objective, but we thought it’s worth a consideration. It’s not only because its too saturated, but considering that Dunefolk unti’s now wear a lot of green (if they get mainlined) there is a big contrast between the different green palettes of the units. Some unit’s like the Spearguard/Spearmaster or the Swordsman/Bladesmaster wear darker shades of green and the Herbalist and Rider line have a lighter green palette. The Naga palette seems very „aggressive“ in comparison to Dunefolks shades of green. But maybe its only me having this problem, am I?



Flat Control - Shield Breaker


_shieldbreaker-28-comparison.png
_shieldbreaker-28-comparison.png (6.45 KiB) Viewed 1685 times


This one is a more fully fletched sprite. Here is a short description for this unit:

"Shield Breakers move gently throughout sands of deserts and strike mercilessly when enemy is the weakest throwing rocks to weaken them and impaling on spears if they get too close. For those who look from afar they might seem to wave while breaking thru frontlines, killing enemies and subjugating villagers to work for their cause."

So this unit is a skilled fighter but not quite evasive as other skimirsher due to her unique movetype. That shield only support the concept of this unit. If you read the balance thread, then you know that she is supposed to get the slow on range which the Swordsman used to have on melee. Thats why we decided to give her bolas. Now because of she has no slow special on lv1 yet, we decided to give her a single bola where the number of bolas increases with each lv up. With 2 bolas she then is able to entangle units. There was a consideration to make a male counter part for this unit, but we like the idea of this unit being fully female as well.

This project needs your feedback! So don’t hesitate to post any thought you have on how to make Dunefolk look even better.


Last edited by ghype on July 7th, 2019, 4:34 pm, edited 22 times in total.

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Celtic_Minstrel
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Extra Units

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » March 26th, 2019, 1:11 am

The shield breaker doesn't really feel like it fits with the rest of the faction at first glance. (I fully support the addition of a female Dunefolk unit by the way, regardless of whether it's both genders or female-only.)
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Extra Units

Post by Xalzar » March 26th, 2019, 1:33 pm

I agree with Gaelic Troubadour about the Shield Breaker, at the moment it seems more a generic rugged spearman and doesn't scream "Dunefolk!".
I think that with some more adjustments it could improve notably. About the bolas, I suggest using a sling for the level one instead, as a single-ball bolas is quite unheard of. The level-ups then gain the bolas. The slight change of weapon can be easily explained in the lore (see Spearman -> Pikeman, similar weapons but one requires more skill than the other).

The Naga IMO is too similar to the Northeners' one. The pose should change a bit more (see Merman Hunter and Fighter); the tail and head can remain as they are. I suggest changing its weapons to a short Naginata, which fits incredibly for the name and could help differentiate the pose aforementioned. In that case I think the bow should be converted to harpoons, which make more sense anyway for water combat.

Nice work so far!

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Extra Units

Post by ghype » March 26th, 2019, 6:47 pm

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
March 26th, 2019, 1:11 am
The shield breaker doesn't really feel like it fits with the rest of the faction at first glance. (I fully support the addition of a female Dunefolk unit by the way, regardless of whether it's both genders or female-only.)
I see the concerns and those were mine as well. but i did as best i could to make her look at least desert-ish. i can see how a more DF typical armour then assassin like clothes could fit her better. the unit was meant to replace the missing pierce damage from the removed piercer. we will think about new ways make this work. the concept for the shield breaker will be further developed then, for now it functions as a place holder.
Xalzar wrote:
March 26th, 2019, 1:33 pm
The Naga IMO is too similar to the Northeners' one.
I see your point. the pose can be changed as indeed but i'd do that once the final weapon setup was decided upon. The Naginata is an interesting weapon but regarding the sprite it would bring it even more closer to the northerners naga. but i can sure try that as well. About the bow ... i could bring up the Naga Hunter which too uses a bow. So I don't see a reason why this one shouldn't be able.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Extra Units

Post by Caladbolg » March 26th, 2019, 9:02 pm

The naga is visually a bit too similar to the Naga Fighter (Warrior and Myrmidon have more fancy armor so they're distinct). The issue is that, unlike the naga hunter which is not present in default mp, these nagas could be on the same map as Naga Fighters in an mp matchup with multiple sides, so it might be hard to read the situation on the field without hovering over the unit to see which naga it is. Not too big of a big deal, but if possible, it'd be good to make them more distinct. But first we need to agree on the finalized weapons. As I mentioned in another thread, there were proposals for Naga with chakrams, so if we go with these kinds of more exotic weapons, the sprite will also get more distinct.

I like the Shield Breaker as a concept, and these sprites do a good job of conveying their theme and role in the faction. The simple style of the spears also visually distinguishes them from the Spearguard line that have more ornate spears and are well-armored. As mentioned, they do look a bit too different from the rest of the dunefolk. The main difference I see is the lack of golds and greens and a ...whatever that cloak-like piece of clothing they wear under the armor is called, the word escapes me at the moment. Baggy pants are the issue, there's not much else below the waist so they are much more prominent than in other units where we just see the unit's feet.
If you just put a piece of clothing on them so that it hangs below their legs, like in Herbalists, or make that tc waistband a bit longer, it should break things up, and make them more in line with other units. And when you have more clothing there, you can put some patterns on them, color them gold and that's it. But there should be some greens, and if you make that piece green, you'll need another piece of clothing for tc. But something along those lines should work well to make them more visually consistent with the rest of dunefolk without changing their appearance and theme a lot.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Extra Units

Post by ghype » March 27th, 2019, 11:26 am

Caladbolg wrote:
March 26th, 2019, 9:02 pm
The naga is visually a bit too similar to the Naga Fighter
The fact that they will appear on the same map on opposite sites is a good point. This Naga and the Naga Hunter (which both use the same head) appear to be smaller as their eyes are 2 pixel lower and their faces are smaller, but the sprites themselves are actually the same size.
so yeah, they will need a a definite different stance. But this one was a draft anyway, sort of placeholder. The will be a new draft once there has been agreed on some new concepts for the weapon set-up. Ofc we can end up with multiple different weapon setups ... and then we choose the one we like the most.
Caladbolg wrote:
March 26th, 2019, 9:02 pm
As mentioned, they do look a bit too different from the rest of the dunefolk. The main difference I see is the lack of golds and greens
The burner line works quite well without the greens which is a more prominent feature then the gold in other sprites. We had similar concerns for the burner line so we added some green/gold patterns onto their clothing but dismissed it in the end. the same could be applied for this line. burner doesn't need green/gold patterns. Thats were the SB references Dunefolk. We had versions with green pants, or green tops, but this one appeared to be the best good looking.
Caladbolg wrote:
March 26th, 2019, 9:02 pm
Baggy pants are the issue, there's not much else below the waist so they are much more prominent than in other units where we just see the unit's feet. If you just put a piece of clothing on them so that it hangs below their legs, like in Herbalists, or make that tc waistband a bit longer, it should break things up, and make them more in line with other units.
Yes, as considered after celtics comment, i will probably change up it's armour setup completly. it will probably end up with a skirt rather then baggy pants. the weapons my change as well. a sling sounds appropriate for the lv 1 where as the lv ups can keep the bolas.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Extra Units

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » March 27th, 2019, 12:59 pm

I'm not sure about giving them a skirt. That doesn't seem like the best option for fighting, though I assume you meant a short one so it wouldn't be a major issue; but also, I'm not sure it would work with the Middle-Eastern theme. Still, I guess it's an option worth exploring.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Extra Units

Post by ghype » March 27th, 2019, 1:46 pm



well i wastn't thinking about exactly a skirt, but wouldn know how to call this.
this is probably what i will go for the bottom body armour


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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Extra Units

Post by Caladbolg » March 27th, 2019, 8:12 pm

ghype wrote:
March 27th, 2019, 11:26 am
The burner line works quite well without the greens which is a more prominent feature then the gold in other sprites.
Fair point.
ghype wrote:
March 27th, 2019, 1:46 pm
well i wastn't thinking about exactly a skirt, but wouldn know how to call this.
this is probably what i will go for the bottom body armour
Yeah, that's what I was thinking of too. That should suffice :)

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Extra Units

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » March 28th, 2019, 12:13 am

Ah, I think I understand - you're thinking of the sort of "armour skirt" that soldiers wore (eg, Roman soldiers). That should be fine, then.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Extra Units

Post by ghype » March 30th, 2019, 8:34 am

I saw no comments on the nagas skin colour.
Should I move on with the light green or the less saturated green?

beware that there were reasons why i offered two skin version. In case you need an update, here is the paragraph talking about the skin colours.
ghype wrote:
March 25th, 2019, 8:14 pm
Furthermore, I myself found the colour palette for the Nagas skin too saturated, so we did a bit of recolouring. Wether you like it or not might be objective, but we thought it’s worth a consideration. It’s not only because its too saturated, but considering that Dunefolk unti’s now wear a lot of green (if they get mainlined) there is a big contrast between the different green palettes of the units. Some unit’s like the Spearguard/Spearmaster or the Swordsman/Bladesmaster wear darker shades of green and the Herbalist and Rider line have a lighter green palette. The Naga palette seems very „aggressive“ in comparison to Dunefolks shades of green. But maybe its only me having this problem, am I?

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Extra Units

Post by beetlenaut » March 30th, 2019, 10:36 am

ghype wrote:
March 30th, 2019, 8:34 am
I saw no comments on the nagas skin colour.
Should I move on with the light green or the less saturated green?
It makes sense for the nagas from different regions to have different colors, so I see nothing wrong with changing it. The less-saturated green is okay, but it is pretty similar to the yellow on the belly. The lower contrast makes the sprite a little less interesting IMHO. Maybe you should consider changing the hue even more like one of the ones on the right for example:
naga_greens.png
naga_greens.png (8.94 KiB) Viewed 1375 times
ghype wrote:
March 25th, 2019, 8:14 pm
I wasn’t so sure about it, but I created a version with a shield.
I prefer the one with the shield.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Extra Units

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » March 30th, 2019, 2:26 pm

On the other hand, the shield version makes less sense if it's going to be switched to use chakrams.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Extra Units

Post by ghype » March 30th, 2019, 3:47 pm

beetlenaut wrote:
March 30th, 2019, 10:36 am
Maybe you should consider changing the hue even more like one of the ones on the right
I actually like the top right one.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
March 30th, 2019, 2:26 pm
On the other hand, the shield version makes less sense if it's going to be switched to use chakrams.
Shield will probably will not be used. I should try to get a nice stance for him.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Extra Units

Post by ghype » April 3rd, 2019, 1:36 pm



Here is an update for the two extra units which made use of most of the comments posted by you.

The SB now wear greens and golds and uses a armored skirt to protect some part of her legs. She wears no boots but slippers if you may call them like that. The shield was pressed away from her body. I wouldn't know what else was to be improved upon except maybe taken off her mask as currently the female burner is masked as well.
Any thoughts?


_shieldbreaker-31.png
_shieldbreaker-31.png (5.18 KiB) Viewed 1297 times


As for the Naga, I played around with the stance, added a quiver and changed the blade to a shorter one. The one I prefer obviously is the first one, but people could argue that its lv ups would be too close to the ones from the Naga fighter from a visual perspective. I would argue against that the they will have very distinctive set of armours and also, the new naga doesn't has to wield dual blade but the one dagger can become a sickle or another exotic weapon or curved blade. What I have planned to do as well is to recolour the bow to a more wood-ish colour. Once we decided on a final stance and weapon setup for the lv 1 sprite, we gonna have to debate which of the new colouring suggested by beetlenaut fits the best. Personally, I like the upper one better, but I would change the face and spike on the head to the colour of the body skin.
Suggestions? Which of the two colour set ups do you like better?


naga-blight-17-comparison.png
naga-blight-17-comparison.png (7.11 KiB) Viewed 1297 times
naga_greens.png
naga_greens.png (7.41 KiB) Viewed 1294 times

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