Winds of Fate

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Re: Winds of Fate 3.0.0 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.15.13 and up)

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

Lord-Knightmare wrote: May 28th, 2021, 6:20 pm

Code: Select all

20210529 00:06:58 error deprecation: terrain.owner has been deprecated and will be removed in version 1.17.0.; This returns 0 for side 1 etc and should not be used. Use owner_side instead.
20210529 00:06:58 error deprecation: unit.side has been deprecated and will be removed in version 1.17.0.; This returns 0 for side 1 etc and should not be used. Use side_number instead.
This is most likely caused by a filter or ability formula - search for instances of "owner" in WFL contexts.
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Re: Winds of Fate 3.0.0 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.15.13 and up)

Post by Lord-Knightmare »

One "gameplay" oversight in S6 Elensefar.
This idiot died from suicide
This idiot died from suicide
WoF-Elensefar-Auto-Save9.gz
(59.55 KiB) Downloaded 156 times
Last time, there weren't any super tanky ships with hyper ballistae. This time, there was like 3-4, so Karron's flight was wiped out since they were blocked by the ships and picked off by Knight charges.

Why 100 HP for level 3 boats?

If I trigger the beacon at beacon at turn 4, I regret it since those knights end up skewering me but if I do it on turn 3, I am able to beat them off but Karron ends up being a ballista target to tanks which won't die easily.
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Re: Winds of Fate 3.0.0 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.15.13 and up)

Post by octalot »

Celtic_Minstrel wrote: May 28th, 2021, 11:41 pm This is most likely caused by a filter or ability formula - search for instances of "owner" in WFL contexts.
There are no instances of "owner" in Winds of Fate, nor in Lord-Knightmare's save file. How is a UMC author meant to debug this?

There also seem to be no teleporting units, nor tunnels in this scenario, so it seems unlikely to be #5816.

Edit: it is #5816 - that bug triggers while the AI is evaluating possible recruits, if the side's recruit list includes "Silver Mage".
(For anyone who wants to know how that got debugged - a bit of luck, in a C++ debugger, and then noticing that the pathfinding algorithm was being passed a non-null `teleporter` argument).
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Re: Winds of Fate 3.0.0 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.15.13 and up)

Post by Lord-Knightmare »

Here it is, the review:
This was in a markdown file, so don't mind the # and **<word>** here and there.
version 3.0.0 Review (Full)
# Winds of Fate

## Starting Impressions:
1. Reboot of _Wings of Victory_/_Wings of Valour_ since those received nothing except negative reviews and continued lambasting in the official wesnoth discord.
2. Drake campaign. Intermediate Level
3. Mainline campaign candidate.
4. rebranded title "Winds of Fate" is the same as the "Winds of Fate" Book by Mercedes Lackey (1992). Might get copyrighted/sued. I am not a lawyer so I cannot say.
5. Leader's advancement path is fixed? Okay. I guess it's fine.
6. Armageddon Drake enabled only for Gorlack. Okay. No complaints.

## Specifics:
1. Battle for Wesnoth v1.15.13+dev (4ee5e41a2e5-Modified) x86_64
2. Windows 10 (Msys)
3. Biased RNG + Normal difficulty (the middle one)


## Scenario 1:
1. The kill/harvest counter seems too low for "Challenging". Should like 20 or 25.
2. Symphalian is just the worst.
3. enemy monster spawns sometimes become rather absurd. Example: one cuttlefish spawned on the lake of Water Serpents and this led to a 1v2v1 of a Symphalian, the Cuttlefish and 2 serpents
4. Enemy spawns sometimes seem out of hand at later turns. Saw like a cluster of Swamp Lizards and Horned Scarabs in the southern path.
5. Drake Fighter which joins in this scenario is now Karron and he does not join the player's recall list. Did not like this change.
6. Fire Guardian gave a "The Fae" reference. Does this reference _Genesis_, _Invasion from the Unknown_, or _After the Storm_?


## Scenario 2:
1. Objectives were changed. Approved of these new ones. Good.
2. Skimmers? Hmm, interesting and quite challenging as well.
3. Found a lore book northwestwards? okay, so it says that the Drakes and Dragons were responsible for the Valefolk and Wesfolk fleeing the Old Continent. Interesting. Would you mind if I added this to..my timeline of things?


## Scenario 3:
1. Ah, yes. I like it better than the last time I played it.
2. Drake Gliders are the most useless units here. One suggestion I would make is add an optional advancement to the Drake Adventurer, an UMC secondary advancement-line to the Drake Glider, to make their usage worthwhile.
3. Drake Clashers are most viable.
4. Drake Flares are worth more than Fire Drakes or any other unit types.
5. Won by 2.5:1 ratio. (see screenshot)
6. Couldn't get the special reward like I did last time. Oh well.


## Scenario 4:
1. Nice to see Nagas recruiting more than a single unit type.
2. The Krakens were nice. Annoying, frustrating but nice.
3. Objective was changed. Good.
4. The AI of Side 3 (nagas) appeared to be...super silly. Completely disogranised and un-coordinated.
5. Sea Serpent behaviour was astoundingly silly. They should have had more "monster AI"
6. One Sea Serpent just stood there without attacking Side 2
7. One Sea Serpent almost cost me the game by stealing one village of mine and stayed there for a 1-2 turns. Felt lucky when the sea serpent decided to leave it.
8. Another Sea Serpent moved away and enabled one Kraken to kill off my Flare. I reloaded out of disgust.
9. I liked this scenario before, but due to such Allied AI behaviour, I am disappointed. Moving on.
10. See replay.
11. I played on Biased RNG so it was okayish for me, but this might more or less be the RNG nightmare for other people.
12. Please put the Kraken for addition to core. It's a nice unit and has been in _Dead Water_ for quite some time.


## Scenario 5 (Three Sisters):
1. Scenario seems changed. Same objectives as previous one, but okay since it's not like the same objective on repeat like the last one.
2. Side 2 leader had the name "Haldric" (Lieutenant), but the Master Bowman "Elyn", remarks that "Rhyninn" has died. Is this some typo?
3. Bombarded by over 2500 "Invalid WML found" messages...and counting...
4. 12k lines on my screen. Yeah, I will wait for this to be fixed.
5. What is the reason being placing the Silver Mage at (19,3). This was funny and out of place.
6. If I have no recruits or recalls here, why did you you give me 100 gold?
7. Thank you for taking my previous suggestion and recalling one of my experienced Drake Warriors and some other Drakes such as that Fighter and Burner.
8. It was amusing seeing the Loyalists get torn apart by the monsters.
9. Certain units spawning location was absurd. The volcano at the Southeast spat out a Giant Spider, and that patch of desert at (17,11) suddenly spawned a Swamp Lizard and Giant Spider which then proceeded a mano-e-mano.
10. reloaded from a autosave to raid the temples. Wasn't disappointed. Good stuff.
11. Realised This scenario is an XP farm.
12. One Scorpling spawned on a volcano hex...and BBQ Scorpion?


## scenario 6: (Elensefar):
1. Objective is "Harvest all prey". This is fine. I guess it's the same as the first one's objective so, okayish.
2. Replay of "cutscene" scenario 05x was generated, even though it shouldn't.
3. So, the reason the Drakes reduced Elensefar and butchered every single human alive there was because they had no choice and needed food? Abducting their cattle and livestock would been better.
4. The beacon lighting seems very targetted towards turn 4. Earlier, his flight is wiped and he suicides. Later than that, then the Knights skewer Gorlack's side, and too many units take out drakes due to their 40% defence on Mountains. Perhaps adjusting to allow any turn between 3-5?
5. Those ships with 100 HP were were very tanky and had a pierce ranged attack strong enough to kill off Karron in a turn. Had to time my aggressive tactic just right to prevent him from being skewered.
6. The saurian allies only fed and brought time.
7. BUG: Ships can move to villages and when they do, they have 0% defence. This allows me a 100% CTH and easy 24 XP. (Not sure if bug though)


## Scenario 7 (Wesmere):
1. Reshan seems to be the most sensible Drake. He clearly sees that killing everything in sight is not helping at all and yet the campaign and Gorlack dsiregard his counsel and end up with bad reviews and appeal. Maybe Gorlack should listen to him and go on some other path (the campaign may have turned out better if Reshan's counsel was considered).
2. I see this has not changed. This scenario makes little sense, and it's made worst since now Gorlack torch up the entire forest.
3. The Elves offer the drakes and Saurians passage and they slaughter the elves as payback and harvest the corpses... It doesn't sense. The Saurians wanted revenge for their fallen Lord, I can see that, but why make Drakes slaughter the entire map?
4. So, Elves and Woses just seat by while Drakes, fully armoured to the teeth, and Saurians with sharpened spears move around freely and encircle their leaders? Hardly makes sense. Not even any arousal of suspicion?
5. Third scenario of "Harvesting"/killing all enemy units. Acceptable..somewhat...but I really don't like this scenario.
6. The reason offered for the Forest Fire mechanic taking place is not satisfactory at all. Elves seldom neglect their forests. I have an alternate explanation. Before the arrival of Gorlack, this section of the forest had been exposed to extreme amounts of sunlight for weeks and the leaves of all trees had dried up significantly, rendering the section of the forest easily ignitable.
7. I have suffered significant losses here, including losing 2 Fire Drakes. Felt really lucky that my Inferno Drakes survived.
8. Why does Gorlack, the "Dominant", have just one single of line of dialogue here (and at the very end of the scenario)? This seems odd. Why the Saurians which serve the Drakes, issuing the commands here? Really confusing.
9. The bonus artifact "Sea Sapphire" is 8-3 ranged magical cold. For a level 1 unit, this is superb. For a level 2 unit, this is decent. For a level 3 unit this is underwhelming. Can some object be added that augments the damage of this attack per level up? such as 8-3 for a level 1, 10-3 for a level 2, and 12-3 for a level 3 unit, and 15-3 for a level 4 (if Gorlack is the one to take it)? Also, can you give a special overlay for this unit with the Sea Sapphire?


## Scenario 8 (Foothills):
1. Apart from the Elves and Woses AI behaving properly now, the other change is that the scenario is actually doable now.
2. That Ancient Lich One-Move-Killed my Inferno Drake. Not funny. Not fair either.
3. Why is this Lich Lord here? I thought most of them stayed on the Green Isle and the ones that did follow Jevyan withdrew to the Green Isle? How did he get here? How did he past the elves and dwarves? Why didn't the Elves and Dwarves detect this Lich Lord and put an end to him?
4. On a follow up to #3 here, I read the "Past_and_Future_Drake_History_(Spoilers).txt" file. From what I have understood, you have rewritten the origins of the Lich Lords, making them far more ancient than most of us had assumed previously. If this is accepted as the new "mainline" lore, then I have no problems with it. Pretty detailed too.
5. Why is he recruiting Water Serpents? The recruitment of "Lich" to make nuke my poor drakes is understandable but water serpents? It's silly. I think he can recruit Spectres too but I got lucky since he did not recruit any when I was playing this scenario.
6. If I knew that attacking him would turn him into an ally, I might as well have surpressed my losses with by attacking the Ancient Lich with Reshan on the first chance.
7. This "high" and "mighty" Lich Lord got wrecked by an Elvish Sylph, in one turn.


## Scenario 9 (Heart Mountains):
1. I figured I could level up some clashers here, but this map was unfavourable for clashers. Rather Fighter-lines, Burner-lines and Glider-lines were doing exceptionally well.
2. I slightly like the variety of Fauna here, but I have some issues with this one.
1. There are Greater Icemonaces (Icemonaxes?) but no Icemonaxes. The younger ones should be present and these two units should be demonstrating a tusker/tusklet herd-animals MAI behaviour, but they did not. Additonally the greater Icemonax packs quite a punch vs drakes. Ouch.
2. Direwolves. I see only the level 3 Direwolves here, but no Great Wolf or the regular Wolves. There should have been some variety of the wolves and they should have been demonstrating the wolves multipack MAI here to add to the "fauna" effect.
3. Falcons/Elder Falcons. These are fine as they are, but there is room of some simple attack MAI which picks off weak/near-death units.
4. Cave Bear. Fluffy Boi. He should be demonstrating "big animal"/"hunter" MAI behaviour.
5. Giant/Frost Stoats. These can demonstrate the lurker (on snow terrain) MAI behaviour.
6. Yeti can have either "hunter"/"big animal" MAI.
7. Yeti spawned could use population control.
3. I checked the scenario file code to see if MAI had been used, but I was disappointed to see nothing regarding MAI here, where they could have been used abundantly, instead of seeing various animals senselessly slaughter each other.
4. There are swamps here, but no Swamp Lizards with lurker (swamp) MAI.
5. Gorlack vs the dragon: I did go 1v1 all the way, despite being allowed to use other units. Either I got lucky and was dealt a single strike or dodged both hits. There is one turn where if I had made a blunder, I would have been dealt 48 dmg, and killed on the next turn, but got lucky. Gorlack did 1v1 the dragon, proving the Fire Dragon has pathetic stats for a level 5 units (only wish they responded to the bug report I filed for such poor stats). In any case, it's very RNG dependent on who wins and who loses. Kind of exploited the Soothsayer Hero by keeping him next to Gorlack for healing, and kept him on Lava to avoid the ToD -25% debuff.
6. Occassionaly, one Elder Falcon might pop "inbetween" Gorlack and the dragon's battle-area.


## Scenario 10 (Fire Meets Steel):
1. New map is better than the old one.
2. The WoV version of this was a bloodbath. All my veterans dying. This was slightly less of a bloodbath but I did still lose a LOT of my veterans. Kind of shocked that 3HP Blademaster still survived and I finally got a Warden. Still saddened that I could not get ample chances to level up an Enforcer which is my second favourite Drake unit (Favourite is always Blademaster).
3. Thunderguards and Gryphon Masters are most hated units now. Even more than the Ancient Lich. It almost felt as if they were scripted to land every thunderstick shot...

## Scenario 11:
1. Won by turn 5. Took the dishonourable way. I feel ashamed to having resorted to such a sly tactic given my respect for Drakes being honourable but I was left with little choice.
2. This was unsatisfactory end to WoF but...well, since I did lose most of my veterans, so I...couldn't really complain.
3. "Added player allies and redesigned enemy's strategy. Much more player village_income because the drakes are at an established Eyrie." Allies? what allies? Enemy Strategy? He was fleeing to the keep and I caught him midway. His Glider caste squad just spawned when I surrounded him.
4. Kind of amusing how Saurians and Drake gliders ended up being the most utilisable here.
5. I speculate if the other "honourable" battle path is doable, given how Karron has 5 times as much gold as Gorlack.

## Overall Impressions:
1. Way better than the mess version 2.0.5 of Wings of Valour was.
2. Objective variety was plentiful.
3. Scenario 9 should have several unique MAI for monster sides, and units.
4. Scenario 8 is okay if the new lore is accepted. Otherwise, no.
5. Scenario 7 should be changed completely. It's still more or less the same as the WoV v2.0.5 one, with just a new mechanic and one artifact drop.
6. Advancing Clasher caste Drakes should not be such a harsh ordeal. Even if I do advance them, those Thunderguards shoot them dead.
7. _Winds of Fate_ has improved, but there is room for more improvements to be done. Especially points 3,4 and 5 here (especially #5).
8. Before entering mainline, I'd really like to see two things: (1) #3, #4, #5 are rectified and (2) One of DM/LoW gets axed (especially DM). I find WoF to be better than these two. (you can ignore this point, but I just think these are not fit for mainline anymore like how AOI was deemed). I know NR ranks in this too, but NR rework was mentioned so I would like to review that one first (when it's out). Most people would find this point to be very extreme, but this is me being brutally honest. Want a decent campaign to enter mainline? Axe a really bad one first. One case for AOI can be made, but AOI left and we got World Conquest entering, so that is equalised.

Attachments
WoF-Elensefar replay 20210529-065955.gz
(41.74 KiB) Downloaded 135 times
WoF-Wesmere replay 20210529-072714.gz
(40.29 KiB) Downloaded 140 times
WoF-Foothills replay 20210529-075610.gz
(50.15 KiB) Downloaded 139 times
WoF-Heart Mountains replay 20210529-082852.gz
(47.93 KiB) Downloaded 138 times
WoF-Fire Meets Steel replay 20210529-190945.gz
(54.17 KiB) Downloaded 148 times
WoF-Confrontation replay 20210529-192759.gz
(37.81 KiB) Downloaded 141 times
Last edited by Lord-Knightmare on May 29th, 2021, 3:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Winds of Fate 3.0.0 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.15.13 and up)

Post by Lord-Knightmare »

Here all my save files if any one wants them. I had to add them in a separate post since I am allowed 6 uploads per post.
Attachments
WoF-Wesmere.gz
(18.38 KiB) Downloaded 146 times
WoF-Foothills.gz
(19.98 KiB) Downloaded 137 times
WoF-Heart Mountains.gz
(22.07 KiB) Downloaded 155 times
WoF-Fire Meets Steel.gz
(23.64 KiB) Downloaded 145 times
WoF-Confrontation.gz
(23.15 KiB) Downloaded 145 times
WoF-Epilogue.gz
(23.04 KiB) Downloaded 147 times
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Re: Winds of Fate 3.0.0 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.15.13 and up)

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

octalot wrote: May 29th, 2021, 9:05 am
Celtic_Minstrel wrote: May 28th, 2021, 11:41 pm This is most likely caused by a filter or ability formula - search for instances of "owner" in WFL contexts.
There are no instances of "owner" in Winds of Fate, nor in Lord-Knightmare's save file. How is a UMC author meant to debug this?

There also seem to be no teleporting units, nor tunnels in this scenario, so it seems unlikely to be #5816.

Edit: it is #5816 - that bug triggers while the AI is evaluating possible recruits, if the side's recruit list includes "Silver Mage".
(For anyone who wants to know how that got debugged - a bit of luck, in a C++ debugger, and then noticing that the pathfinding algorithm was being passed a non-null `teleporter` argument).
Is it possible that it's caused by mainline, not Winds of Fate? For example, the teleport or leadership abilities.
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Re: Winds of Fate 3.0.0 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.15.13 and up)

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`
Thank you again for the detailed feedback, Lord-Knightmare!

I am going through it bit by bit and putting together a list of changes to make and test out, along with a detailed reply with some answers to your questions, hopefully it won't take too long.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote: May 29th, 2021, 3:15 pm
octalot wrote: May 29th, 2021, 9:05 am There also seem to be no teleporting units, nor tunnels in this scenario, so it seems unlikely to be #5816.

Edit: it is #5816 - that bug triggers while the AI is evaluating possible recruits, if the side's recruit list includes "Silver Mage".
(For anyone who wants to know how that got debugged - a bit of luck, in a C++ debugger, and then noticing that the pathfinding algorithm was being passed a non-null `teleporter` argument).
Is it possible that it's caused by mainline, not Winds of Fate? For example, the teleport or leadership abilities.
It looks that way, since there is a single Silver Mage in this scenario (though none in the recruit lists) as per the issue #5816.
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Re: Winds of Fate 3.0.0 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.15.13 and up)

Post by Mirion147 »

Okay, so, I played through WoF this time on Challenging because I figured "I've done this campaign already, I can go up a difficulty 8) ". I'm bad at this game lol, but I made it through. As per my usual, I have some thoughts.

General:
Spoiler:
S1:
Spoiler:
S2:
Spoiler:
S3:
Spoiler:
S4:
Spoiler:
S5:
Spoiler:
Dialog S:
Spoiler:
S6:
Spoiler:
S7:
Spoiler:
S8:
Spoiler:
S9:
Spoiler:
S10:
Spoiler:
S11:
Spoiler:
Okay, overall I really enjoyed this campaign. The objectives were diverse, I didn't feel like I was doing the same thing over and over again (except for when I was, my fault there though lol). I thought there was good evidence of transition from "we are dominant to all" to other races deserve honor and respect. I feel like either Gorlack should list off what has brought him to this revelation or there needs to be another interaction between Gorlack's flight and humans. I feel like there is something missing in regard to the full movement of the campaign specifically in Gorlack's change of heart.

[EDIT] Yea, it's probably not the best form to have everything divided up in spoilers like that, buttttt that's what I did lol.
[EDIT2] Forgot the image lol.

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Re: Winds of Fate 3.0.0 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.15.13 and up)

Post by Lord-Knightmare »

I speculate if the other "honourable" battle path is doable, given how Karron has 5 times as much gold as Gorlack.
I have done one more playthrough of S11 (on Dominant), this time I intentionally extended the scenario engagement and tried to see what the bonuses and enemy waves were.

WoF-Confrontation replay 20210530-215602.gz
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Re: Winds of Fate 3.0.0 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.15.13 and up)

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`
To improve timeliness, I am breaking this into two parts, this first for game play and a to-be-done second post for lore/story.

Lord-Knightmare wrote: May 29th, 2021, 2:43 pm ## Scenario 1:
1. The kill/harvest counter seems too low for "Challenging". Should like 20 or 25.
2. Stymphalian is just the worst.
3. enemy monster spawns sometimes become rather absurd. Example: one cuttlefish spawned on the lake of Water Serpents and this led to a 1v2v1 of a Symphalian, the Cuttlefish and 2 serpents
4. Enemy spawns sometimes seem out of hand at later turns. Saw like a cluster of Swamp Lizards and Horned Scarabs in the southern path.
5. Drake Fighter which joins in this scenario is now Karron and he does not join the player's recall list. Did not like this change.
The counter should be 20 or more to maximize the fun of this scenario by itself, I fully agree.
But after 20 or 25 level 2 unit kills, the XP gain might become an issue for the next two or three scenarios.
This is what I call the "Tyranny of Carryover"; you can never fully focus on the fun factor of a particular scenario because of downstream effects.

The Stymphalians nest in the mountains, so they were a disproportionately big problem for you this play through because you took the highland coastal route. If you take the lowland coastal route you will encounter more of the Crocodiles and Cuttlefish. The middle route has a mix of things.

The spawn build up is meant to apply some light time pressure on the player. Nothing like the awful turn limit mechanic that plagues most mainline campaign scenarios, but just a nudge that you should wrap up your hunt before the jungle begins to hunt you. Looks like the cuttlefish spawned in the lake because I put deep water there for purely cosmetic reasons. It probably only happens once every 100 turns or so.

The drake fighter unit that stays with you is still in this scenario, you can find it at the nearest drake structure (the Cenotaph of Kotick) on the river island, whereas Karron is found at the distant Cenotaph of Morogor.
Mirion147 wrote: May 30th, 2021, 6:23 am I could say that you should add a note saying that this campaign doesn't always function like typical Wesnoth, or add dialog regarding the oasis'
Healing oases are part of standard wesnoth game mechanics. Anytime you see them, in multiplayer or other campaigns, you can use them for healing. It is a shame there is not more than just this one healing terrain in core wesnoth.
Lord-Knightmare wrote: May 29th, 2021, 2:43 pm ## Scenario 4:
4. The AI of Side 3 (nagas) appeared to be...super silly. Completely disogranised and un-coordinated.
5. Sea Serpent behaviour was astoundingly silly. They should have had more "monster AI"
6. One Sea Serpent just stood there without attacking Side 2
7. One Sea Serpent almost cost me the game by stealing one village of mine and stayed there for a 1-2 turns. Felt lucky when the sea serpent decided to leave it.
8. Another Sea Serpent moved away and enabled one Kraken to kill off my Flare. I reloaded out of disgust.
9. I liked this scenario before, but due to such Allied AI behaviour, I am disappointed. Moving on.
The AI aggression level used to be 0.6 back in 2.0.0, I should try that weight again. I will also have the Sea Serpents appear on a dusk turn which should make them more aggressive in their opening move.

#7 is a really big problem, but fortunately we have a solution used in the next scenario, so I just have to apply that to the Naga side. Big thanks for reporting this, it had slipped my mind!
Mirion147 wrote: May 30th, 2021, 6:23 am S4:
And you may want to make this one (for those of us who aren't good at this game, please only this one) scenario a bit harder. I barely touched the northern mermen and the naga took them out on the 15th turn.
I will look into it.
Lord-Knightmare wrote: May 29th, 2021, 2:43 pm 12. Please put the Kraken for addition to core. It's a nice unit and has been in _Dead Water_ for quite some time.
I agree wholeheartedly. And I think it used to be core a long time ago. Consider this a perk if we make it into mainline-- another reason to fully mainline the Kraken as well. ;)
Lord-Knightmare wrote: May 29th, 2021, 2:43 pm 6. If I have no recruits or recalls here, why did you you give me 100 gold?
[...]
9. Certain units spawning location was absurd. The volcano at the Southeast spat out a Giant Spider, and that patch of desert at (17,11) suddenly spawned a Swamp Lizard and Giant Spider which then proceeded a mano-e-mano.
Good catches.
The 100 was done by the wesnoth engine because I did not explicitly set the gold to 0.
Apparently the terrain code considers volcano to be a type of mountain so must exclude that terrain type.

After dissecting your replay it looks like the Crocodile actually spawned in the swamp as it should at the end of turn 3, then roamed into the desert.
Lord-Knightmare wrote: May 29th, 2021, 2:43 pm 4. The beacon lighting seems very targetted towards turn 4. Earlier, his flight is wiped and he suicides. Later than that, then the Knights skewer Gorlack's side, and too many units take out drakes due to their 40% defence on Mountains. Perhaps adjusting to allow any turn between 3-5?
5. Those ships with 100 HP were were very tanky and had a pierce ranged attack strong enough to kill off Karron in a turn. Had to time my aggressive tactic just right to prevent him from being skewered.
6. The saurian allies only fed and brought time.
Hmm, I am thinking of removing the westernmost ship and reducing the human gold from 600 to 500. I will have to test this.
Lord-Knightmare wrote: May 29th, 2021, 12:13 am 7. BUG: Ships can move to villages and when they do, they have 0% defence. This allows me a 100% CTH and easy 24 XP. (Not sure if bug though)

Why 100 HP for level 3 boats?
They are meant to be a considerable enemy, a 20-25 meter long ship with some heavy artillery on board, so maybe level 4 would be better?
The mobility limitation to only water tiles and village harbors, plus the lack of any melee attacks are the main reason they are only level 3, currently.

Yeah, mooring at villages is not a bug and neither is the 100% CTH, since they are immobile when in harbor. Since the Karakoa unit description has a note about this I should probably do similar for the Caravel too.
Mirion147 wrote: May 30th, 2021, 6:23 am S6:
Also Karron can recruit soooo many units if he makes it to the keep (img). I waited until turn 5 to use the beacon, bringing my units up the coast and bypassing all the charging horseman, I thought it was cool I was able to use the deep water to avoid a lot of injury.
Interesting approach.

Yeah, Karron's recruits are there to help you mop up the map faster. There were complaints that scenarios took too much mop up or grinding in 2.0.0.
Lord-Knightmare wrote: May 29th, 2021, 12:13 am 9. The bonus artifact "Sea Sapphire" is 8-3 ranged magical cold. For a level 1 unit, this is superb. For a level 2 unit, this is decent. For a level 3 unit this is underwhelming. Can some object be added that augments the damage of this attack per level up? such as 8-3 for a level 1, 10-3 for a level 2, and 12-3 for a level 3 unit, and 15-3 for a level 4 (if Gorlack is the one to take it)? Also, can you give a special overlay for this unit with the Sea Sapphire?
What if you give it to a Clasher? Doesn't giving a decent ranged attack to a melee only unit give it a bit more utility?
Lord-Knightmare wrote: May 29th, 2021, 12:13 am ## Scenario 8 (Foothills):
6. If I knew that attacking him would turn him into an ally, I might as well have surpressed my losses with by attacking the Ancient Lich with Reshan on the first chance.
True.
Lord-Knightmare wrote: May 29th, 2021, 12:13 am 7. This "high" and "mighty" Lich Lord got wrecked by an Elvish Sylph, in one turn.
They are both level 4 units.
Lord-Knightmare wrote: May 29th, 2021, 12:13 am ## Scenario 9 (Heart Mountains):
1. I figured I could level up some clashers here, but this map was unfavourable for clashers. Rather Fighter-lines, Burner-lines and Glider-lines were doing exceptionally well.

3. I checked the scenario file code to see if MAI had been used, but I was disappointed to see nothing regarding MAI here, where they could have been used abundantly, instead of seeing various animals senselessly slaughter each other.
4. There are swamps here, but no Swamp Lizards with lurker (swamp) MAI.
The poor clasher mobility on the map is to help balance S11. But adding more clasher friendly terrain might improve S09 enough as to be well worth it. Have to think about it.

The lack of MAI use is very intentional; these were tested early on and I found they were bad for game play in the scenarios where we used them for the wild animals. MAIs make for lots of dragging the player's viewpoint around in random directions to follow uninteresting, harmless units as they random-walk here and there. What players want is a challenge from each scenario and the combat AI's provide that. So too do big, dangerous animals. Small animals with weak attacks quickly become a grind to deal with.

We got _destroyed_ on game play last version, so we have to keep that as our number one priority.
Lord-Knightmare wrote: May 29th, 2021, 12:13 am Gorlack did 1v1 the dragon, proving the Fire Dragon has pathetic stats for a level 5 units (only wish they responded to the bug report I filed for such poor stats).
I have thought about submitting a PR with a 200 hitpoint Fire Dragon.
Mirion147 wrote: May 30th, 2021, 6:23 am S9:
I think a wolf actually killed the dragon....
That wolf will get its own spinoff campaign.
Lord-Knightmare wrote: May 29th, 2021, 12:13 am ## Scenario 10 (Fire Meets Steel):
2. The WoV version of this was a bloodbath. All my veterans dying. This was slightly less of a bloodbath but I did still lose a LOT of my veterans. Kind of shocked that 3HP Blademaster still survived and I finally got a Warden. Still saddened that I could not get ample chances to level up an Enforcer which is my second favourite Drake unit (Favourite is always Blademaster).
Mirion147 wrote: May 30th, 2021, 6:23 am S10:
This scenario definitely sifts through your recall list. But I think if players had focused more on leveling soothsayers they would fare better than I did. The Gryphon Master is a bit much though, but at least they don't have any ranged attacks.
How about using low upkeep level 1 recruits as your mainstay? The trouble with going heavily into veterans is that when they lose their hitpoints, they need several turns to heal... while sucking up your income with upkeep at an enormous rate.

In S10 and S11, you get not 2, but 5 gold from villages (a perk of fighting from your Eyrie stronghold with all the resource advantages it holds). This means that you have a fast renewing income stream to spit out fresh recruits, mixed in with a few veterans. But too many veterans on the field will choke out your income stream with upkeep overhead.

It is like playing age of heroes in multiplayer, where you should recruit mostly L1s with a few powerful L2s to support them.

Maybe the notes need to point this out more clearly? It is a departure from the usual mainline campaign scenarios rewarding only veteran spam, which might make it unexpected without better documentation on the objectives screen.
Lord-Knightmare wrote: May 29th, 2021, 12:13 am ## Scenario 11:
5. I speculate if the other "honourable" battle path is doable, given how Karron has 5 times as much gold as Gorlack.
At least with the veterans I had, it was a bit too easy to destroy everything Karron could throw at me with his 800 gold (after I let him return to keep unhindered), so I jumped up his gold to 1200.

I plan to drop it back down to 1000. With the player's high upkeep, saurians+swamps, some L3 veterans, Karron's recruiting half Fighter caste while the player can go full Clashers+Saurians, the player allies, and the unlimited turns, my hope is this will allow a hard fought victory over the Flight of Karron by a intermediate skilled player.
Lord-Knightmare wrote: May 30th, 2021, 4:01 pm I have done one more playthrough of S11 (on Dominant), this time I intentionally extended the scenario engagement and tried to see what the bonuses and enemy waves were.
You managed to bend your honor a bit without breaking it, heheh. Well done.

Just as an aside, you were playing at highest difficulty, that is why Karron had 1800 gold rather than the usual 1200 (to be lowered to 1000 in the future).



I will respond to the story/lore stuff as soon as I can in a later post.
Last edited by name on May 31st, 2021, 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Winds of Fate 3.0.0 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.15.13 and up)

Post by octalot »

name wrote: May 31st, 2021, 5:28 am The counter should be 20 or more to maximize the fun of this scenario by itself, I fully agree.
But after 20 or 25 level 2 unit kills, the XP gain might become an issue for the next two or three scenarios.
This is what I call the "Tyranny of Carryover"; you can never fully focus on the fun factor of a particular scenario because of downstream effects.

...

The spawn build up is meant to apply some light time pressure on the player. Nothing like the awful turn limit mechanic that plagues most mainline campaign scenarios, but just a nudge that you should wrap up your hunt before the jungle begins to hunt you.
The mechanics as given in the objectives read to me as "milk this for as much XP as possible", and so I was trying to avoid killing (and then letting the wild animals kill-steal when I saw that they respawned). Re-reading the intro text knowing the design goals, I can see that it was meant to say that mere survival would be a challenge, but I don't think it's clear enough.

So far I've only attempted the first scenario once, although I have played older WoV to the end. The misunderstanding was certainly influenced by memory of WoV S01's objectives for this scenario, and the hints in the intro text were given a false meaning by WoV's definition of Aspirant.

The spawn build-up mechanic is not going to help understanding on a first playthrough. I don't know yet if the "drakes are running out of resources" plotline will still be in this version, but having spawns build up during an active Hunt wouldn't fit that plot.
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Re: Winds of Fate 3.0.0 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.15.13 and up)

Post by name »

octalot wrote: May 31st, 2021, 7:04 am The mechanics as given in the objectives read to me as "milk this for as much XP as possible", and so I was trying to avoid killing (and then letting the wild animals kill-steal when I saw that they respawned). Re-reading the intro text knowing the design goals, I can see that it was meant to say that mere survival would be a challenge, but I don't think it's clear enough.
I will try to rewrite the intro text to suggest more of a survival aspect to the game play.
octalot wrote: May 31st, 2021, 7:04 am The spawn build-up mechanic is not going to help understanding on a first playthrough. I don't know yet if the "drakes are running out of resources" plotline will still be in this version, but having spawns build up during an active Hunt wouldn't fit that plot.
To be clear, there is no ramp up of spawn rate over time. There is just a somewhat subtle build up of creatures as they spawn a bit faster than predation/conflict can control until a certain equilibrium is reached (or more likely the player completes the scenario).

Regarding the plot implications, this island (Gaall) is a kind of wildlife sanctuary for the purpose of maintaining healthy game populations (prevent inbreeding depression of game species) and to train/filter small groups of promising drakes for leadership positions. Gaall is also part of the Domain of Vladnir with its higher land to drake ratio, which is why this domain is about to be invaded by neighboring soon-to-be-rogue-flights when WoF begins.

The game populations are also a function of difficulty level, so there is some artistic license taken here to benefit gameplay, and the easier difficulty setting (normal) does have a pretty modest spawn rate for the creatures.
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Re: Winds of Fate 3.0.0 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.15.13 and up)

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`
@Mirion147
Ran out of time again, I will get to your lore feedback soon.
Lord-Knightmare wrote: May 29th, 2021, 2:43 pm 6. Fire Guardian gave a "The Fae" reference. Does this reference _Genesis_, _Invasion from the Unknown_, or _After the Storm_?
I have not yet played those, but at least IftU and AtS are on my to-play-list.
Lord-Knightmare wrote: May 29th, 2021, 2:43 pm ## Scenario 2:
3. Found a lore book northwestwards? okay, so it says that the Drakes and Dragons were responsible for the Valefolk and Wesfolk fleeing the Old Continent. Interesting. Would you mind if I added this to..my timeline of things?
Sure, I do not mind.

I believe the Islefolk were not chased away like the Wesfolk were. Perhaps the Islefolk just settled the Green Isle because no one else was living there, similar to how the Norse settled an uninhabited Iceland. Valefolk means people living in a valley; not sure who that would mean.
Lord-Knightmare wrote: May 29th, 2021, 2:43 pm ## Scenario 5 (Three Sisters):
2. Side 2 leader had the name "Haldric" (Lieutenant), but the Master Bowman "Elyn", remarks that "Rhyninn" has died. Is this some typo?
Renamed to "Haldric Creatures" (what the drakes think we humans call ourselves until the saurians inform them otherwise in the following scenario).
Lord-Knightmare wrote: May 29th, 2021, 2:43 pm 5. What is the reason being placing the Silver Mage at (19,3). This was funny and out of place.
The Silver Mage is combing the shoals for a Fae artifact that was left there long ago by the either the Elves or the Nix.
I was going to have him/her drop a lore book with details about this, but with the beta so close I ran out of time to write it.
Lord-Knightmare wrote: May 29th, 2021, 2:43 pm ## scenario 6: (Elensefar):
3. So, the reason the Drakes reduced Elensefar and butchered every single human alive there was because they had no choice and needed food? Abducting their cattle and livestock would been better.
They took the livestock too. The Humans only arrived a little over 5 years ago, so they have very little of anything at Elensefar. By the order of King Haldric in tRoW they moved most everyone and everything inland as fast as possible to escape situations just like this (although they more so expected the return of orcs or lich-lords). Elensefar is just their initial staging ground to move refugees inland via the Great River all the way to a fledgling Weldyn.

So there just is not enough of any one thing to satiate the enormous needs of the drakes, given so many flights arriving so quickly.

The other factor at work here, is the ignorance of the drakes after living on Morogor for thousands of years; the idea of Sentient Animals is as foreign to them as it is to us real life humans. Imagine your disbelief if tomorrow you discovered Dolphins or Parrots had their own civilization, complete with military hardware to match our own. Or aliens from inside the icy moons of Jupiter or Saturn.

Add to that disbelief, the drake sense of pride in 'knowing' they are the apex predator. Only the gliders and (at least the high level) clashers know better at this point.
Lord-Knightmare wrote: May 29th, 2021, 12:13 am ## Scenario 7 (Wesmere):
1. Reshan seems to be the most sensible Drake. He clearly sees that killing everything in sight is not helping at all and yet the campaign and Gorlack dsiregard his counsel and end up with bad reviews and appeal. Maybe Gorlack should listen to him and go on some other path (the campaign may have turned out better if Reshan's counsel was considered).
Yeah, that is the tragedy of the situation. Gorlack had the drive and self belief to actually launch this expedition beyond Morogor to save his people, but is still a bit young/prideful/damaged, so he made mistakes along the way that added up to a degree of disaster in the end. Though he does learn from those mistakes and ultimately salvages his quest from the fires of the War with Prey.

The glider caste made an attempt to leave under Dominant Kotick (one of the very few Dominants of the glider caste) but Kotick took too long to evaluate a route of escape (the charts captured from the first human expedition had cryptography and decoys applied to them by Lady Jessene after she realized the gliders were planning to leave) and was not a good enough military leader to hold back the rogue flights during this preparation. Reshan largely "inherits" these same weaknesses from his culture (along with its strengths).

The clasher caste, the most honorable of all drakes, became trapped by their oath to a long dead leader and are not able/willing to abandon this promise in order to save their people (despite the toll this must take on them).

The rest of the fighter and burner castes have been raised with an incomplete and somewhat glorified understanding of history up to this point.
Lord-Knightmare wrote: May 29th, 2021, 12:13 am 3. The Elves offer the drakes and Saurians passage and they slaughter the elves as payback and harvest the corpses... It doesn't sense. The Saurians wanted revenge for their fallen Lord,
Salennea does not really represent the elves in any way. Salennea is an extreme eccentric who thinks she can broker a peace between Wesmere and the Saurian Empire, despite the treachery done to the latter by the former only a few years prior and despite her having no status to speak for Wesmere as a whole. The Ka'lian would have intervened if they knew she was letting a party of saurians (and their new friends) into the realm. Because doing so is such an insanely reckless move.

The saurians want revenge for a bigger thing than an assassinated leader. In the Rise of Wesnoth the elves of Wesmere commanded the human refugees from the Green Isle to destroy two saurian settlements within the Saurian Empire. A bit of light genocide.

Arinexis and Zedrix are survivors of the those two settlements. Arinexis is manipulating Salennea to gain access to Wesmere and return the favor.
Lord-Knightmare wrote: May 29th, 2021, 12:13 am 4. So, Elves and Woses just seat by while Drakes, fully armoured to the teeth, and Saurians with sharpened spears move around freely and encircle their leaders? Hardly makes sense. Not even any arousal of suspicion?
Vonel, spineless as he is, has suspicions he expresses loudly at first, but is then overridden by Salennea, whom technically outranks him on matters of diplomacy during peace time (as per 1.15 mainline canon regarding the Elvish Lady).
Lord-Knightmare wrote: May 29th, 2021, 12:13 am 6. The reason offered for the Forest Fire mechanic taking place is not satisfactory at all. Elves seldom neglect their forests.
The reason given in the objectives is from the biased perspective of the drakes. The forest is well enough maintained by the elves, but a combination of mulching and fallen leaf matter from the deciduous trees has created some fire hazards. Coming from the tropics, the drakes have never seen deciduous trees before so they think the trees are dropping their leaves due to disease, and that the mulch is just some random debris. The gliders always make sure to minimize all fire hazards in the hunting grounds they steward because drakes use fire during their hunts.

So there is a difference of opinion and perspective between the two races on proper forest management.
Lord-Knightmare wrote: May 29th, 2021, 12:13 am 8. Why does Gorlack, the "Dominant", have just one single of line of dialogue here (and at the very end of the scenario)? This seems odd. Why the Saurians which serve the Drakes, issuing the commands here? Really confusing.
Good point.
I will have to think about how this can be improved...
Lord-Knightmare wrote: May 29th, 2021, 12:13 am ## Scenario 8 (Foothills):
3. Why is this Lich Lord here? I thought most of them stayed on the Green Isle and the ones that did follow Jevyan withdrew to the Green Isle? How did he get here? How did he past the elves and dwarves? Why didn't the Elves and Dwarves detect this Lich Lord and put an end to him?
4. On a follow up to #3 here, I read the "Past_and_Future_Drake_History_(Spoilers).txt" file. From what I have understood, you have rewritten the origins of the Lich Lords, making them far more ancient than most of us had assumed previously. If this is accepted as the new "mainline" lore, then I have no problems with it. Pretty detailed too.
She came directly from the old continent many thousands of years ago and has no relation to Jevyan. Lich-Lord Sowan is one of the elder Lich-Lords, whom are privy to secrets and abilities no other beings or creatures are aware of except the Arkhai (Fire Guardians), the Will of the Fae, the Fire Dragons, the Silver Magi and (to a limited extent) the Glider Caste.

The elder Lich-Lords have lived long enough to uncover the deep history of Irdya and some connected places beyond it. In so doing, they have learned a terrible secret-- the true nature and designs of the Fae. They work to thwart it, though its power exceeds theirs by leaps and bounds.

This is why Lich-Lord Sowan is on the Great Continent; to study and harness the workings of the Fae over its enchanted creatures like the elves, woses, nix and faeries. This is the land where the Fae's connection to Irdya is most strong and its Will most confident. Here, she carefully skims just so little magic from its dreams as to not be noticed, and with what is skimmed she weaves a small but growing realm of dream-with-substance (something like a physical manifestation of the Fae's dream, which can be seen, heard, felt and tasted). With this she hopes to someday lure part of the Fae's Will into a trap or drive it to madness with the nightmare of "seeing its own reflection".

The younger Lich-Lords like Jevyan and Lenvan lack knowledge and perspective and so are still engaged in petty endeavors like conquering mundane creatures, amassing standing armies of undying slaves and collecting artifacts whose origin and purpose is yet far beyond their comprehension.
Lord-Knightmare wrote: May 29th, 2021, 12:13 am 5. Why is he recruiting Water Serpents? The recruitment of "Lich" to make nuke my poor drakes is understandable but water serpents? It's silly. I think he can recruit Spectres too but I got lucky since he did not recruit any when I was playing this scenario.
Twenty two thousand years ago, before the growing desert claimed them, Sowan's people held the water serpent sacred and tamed them to pull their boats across the shallow rivers and lakes of their homeland. Sowan keeps these serpents to remind her of this time when she lived. To remember the weight of the cool harvest season air passing into her lungs, or the warmth of familiar faces she can no longer picture.
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Re: Winds of Fate 3.0.0 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.15.13 and up)

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Mirion147 wrote: May 30th, 2021, 6:23 am I do find it interesting that Karron is now the fighter found, the dialog there was odd for me, specifically "scattered" in reference to 1 drake. He fled? He was torn apart by Stymphalians?
Fair point, changed it to: "The other went astray."
Mirion147 wrote: May 30th, 2021, 6:23 am You may want to remove the line from the lorebook "the highest ranks guard libraries of secret knowledge written on pottery eggs" or at least adjust it. How I read it was that the highest rank the Clasher Caste could attain was super secret librarian. Obviously Vladnir is of the Clasher Caste though so it's confused me.
Removed the "highest ranks" part.
Mirion147 wrote: May 30th, 2021, 6:23 am Question, if all the humans left the Green Isle, why would Jessene care if the drakes flew to Southbay? Also why is Reshan teeling her this? I get Reshan is more open to other races, but it seems like pretty important information to tell someone you just met. Either Reshan respected her enough to have a full open disclosure parley, which should have impacted the campaign imo, or he didn't trust her and shouldn't have felt compelled to share that.
In the Rise of Wesnoth, we learn that Jessene was the navigator for the expedition that discovered the Great Continent, which took place years before the orcs arrived on the Green Isle and drove everyone out. This log book is from that first expedition.

At that point in time this log was written, Reshan was willing to be very open with the humans of the first expedition because there was so much to gain from them. With the humans' navigational knowledge, the gliders could begin an escape from the exile of morogor and gradually help the other castes to do the same.

But Jessene did not trust the drakes for their warlike ways (and hunting practices). Which is a good reason.

She also did not trust them because she sees drakes as an ancient aggressor to her people back on the Old Continent, which ultimately lead to their retreat to the Green Isle. This is untrue; it was the aggression shown by the younger lich-lords which caused the honorable drakes of the old continent, in league with other races the lich-lords had attacked, to destroy the wesfolk civilization. But Jessene still had a naive view of the Lich-Lords when she wrote this (years before Jevyan's betrayal of the living wesfolk) as well as her own people's role in history.
Mirion147 wrote: May 30th, 2021, 6:23 am Wait, they can see the far western continent, but not the Green Isle which is closer? This doesn't sit right in the plot imo. Also, do the orcs know that Wesnoth lies to the west and how far it is and what lies between there and here? They went to Wesnoth and came back? <-This is kinda a big one for me.
Drakes can not fly high enough to see any other land mass from a position over Morogor.

In the Rise of Wesnoth, Jevyan lead the orcs to Wesnoth, where Jevyan was destroyed by Haldric, and then Haldric allowed a few of the orcs to escape the continent with misinformation that the elves now possessed the Ruby of Fire. So the Orcs have gone back and forth between the Green Isle and the Great Continent by the time of Winds of Fate.
Mirion147 wrote: May 30th, 2021, 6:23 am Is the term "tread" used here because Vladnir can't fly?
Basically yeah; clashers can fly when outside their armor, but wearing it while on duty, they do spend quite a lot of time walking.
Mirion147 wrote: May 30th, 2021, 6:23 am There's a lot of "Time of X's" used, but wouldn't Reshan actually be referring to the Time of Turmoil rather than the Time of Legends?
Mostly you are correct, but Reshan feels that whatever swept drakes off the Great Continent in the Time of Turmoil has had thousands of years to grow or coalesce into a something not seen since the Time of Legend, or even the time before that. He is trying to advise to Gorlack that they take extreme caution.

(Reshan would have preferred they travel west, rather than east, but it was not his call to make.)
Mirion147 wrote: May 30th, 2021, 6:23 am Red sun in morning sailor takes warning, red sun at night, sailor's delight. A red sun in the morning typically means that there is low pressure moving in, which is bad for flying. So they drakes probably would consider that a bad omen rather than just a pretty sight.
I did not know that; removed "red" from that line. (It was too wordy anyhow.)
Mirion147 wrote: May 30th, 2021, 6:23 am Also, an "atoll" references a ring shape island/ island chain, which is not what the map depicts, unless the atoll is not as petty as previously implied. You may want to adjust the wording of the naga "will assume" to the naga "may assume" since they don't actually know that.
Switched "atoll" to "shoals".

Damn though, this scenario would look and play amazing if I could replace the current map with one of a large atoll. Unfortunately the current map is canon used in other mainline campaigns.
Mirion147 wrote: May 30th, 2021, 6:23 am I will say that there is a severe lack of the mention of other races using spears in this campaign which I feel merit a bit of dialog, just opinion though.
My idea is:

Drakes lack the physical ability to throw weapons like other races do; the mechanics of their bodies do not allow for a powerful and accurate throw.
Sticking an opponent with a melee spear while airborne leads to a loss of precious momentum or having to leave your weapon behind, stuck in your opponent or their armor.

So airborne drakes instead making swiping passes with blades and spit fire.

I am not a fan of the spear taboo idea because a physical explanation works much better.
Mirion147 wrote: May 30th, 2021, 6:23 am At some points Haldrics are referred to as humans instead, not sure if this is intentional.
...
Is it desired that the third side isn't hidden? Karron shows a lot of disdain for saurians but then has them in his squad in this scenario.
Yeah, at this point, the saurians have told the drakes that humans are called "humans" and that "Haldric" actually refers to a demon king. (The drakes consider this first statement to be true.)

Karron does not mind the saurians that much, he just finds them annoying and disorderly. And they did advocate for his idea of harvesting elensefar, so that earns them some minor points with him.
Mirion147 wrote: May 30th, 2021, 6:23 am I'm not sure "retreading" is a fitting term here, perhaps "you doom this expedition by winging the same shameful currents of Dominant Morogor"?
Changed to "you doom this expedition by following the shameful windpath of Dominant Morogor."
Mirion147 wrote: May 30th, 2021, 6:23 am Also, suggestion for making this scenario less...brutal?
I am really puzzled that, while some see the levity, camp and slightly dark humor intended for this scenario, others find it very dramatic.
Maybe I need to to figure out how SotA and NR did it.
At any rate, I will try and work on its dialogue some more.
Mirion147 wrote: May 30th, 2021, 6:23 am Would it be bad to have one of the union suggestions be: "the union of the green hands"? LoTR, Saruman and Mordor?

Code: Select all

Arinexis:  "Union of Saurgrath and Mordor"

Zedrix:    Actually, it isss called "Morogor".

Arinexis:  That isss what I sssaid, Zedrix!  "Union of Saurgrath and Morogor"
I think these kinds of references are against mainline policy though, unfortunately.
Mirion147 wrote: May 30th, 2021, 6:23 am Reshan knows what fire dust is? and how much is necessary to bring down the whole cave? (maybe after reading the tome).
The saurians know what it is, and Reshan has had them tell him everything they know by now. Plus there are tales of what fire dust can do from the glider spoken memory and some of the clasher secrets Vladnir may have had enough time to release to him before this hunt began.
Mirion147 wrote: May 30th, 2021, 6:23 am As for why is the lich here? Well that's another story I guess. Honestly, while I'm curious, I can't say it's impossible for him to be there, so I'm gonna roll with it. I'm not sure the choice of the wooden bridge with supports coming from the abyss is the best choice of terrain, but then again maybe I'm missing something.
Yeah, the story of Lich-Lord Sowan is meant to extend before and after the events of WoF.

The wooden bridges and railways over starry voids are meant to showcase that there is a supernatural deviation of the physical laws going on in this place.
It is enchanted.
Mirion147 wrote: May 30th, 2021, 6:23 am There should definitely be some dialog when you agree to be allies with the lich though.
Under normal circumstances there would be a lot of dialogue between these characters. But the elves are rushing in.

I will think it over.
Mirion147 wrote: May 30th, 2021, 6:23 am Timing is off on events, burners showed up for me but then when Karron reached his keep Reshan thinks Karron's burners are all dead.
Yeah, that line from Reshan has to be moved to the beginning of the scenario.
Mirion147 wrote: May 30th, 2021, 6:23 am I thought there was good evidence of transition from "we are dominant to all" to other races deserve honor and respect. I feel like either Gorlack should list off what has brought him to this revelation or there needs to be another interaction between Gorlack's flight and humans. I feel like there is something missing in regard to the full movement of the campaign specifically in Gorlack's change of heart.
I kind of feel what you mean. In the first draft of what became 2.0.0, Reshan does die holding back the elves. He does not come back. It hit harder that way and Gorlack's change of heart really resonated. The trouble was, it hit too hard, with a massive downer ending and no real upside for the player. Wings of Defeat.

Recently I had an idea for synthesizing the old with the new ending. Everything plays out as it did in the original draft, with Reshan gone. Gorlack is left alone on his mountain, having prevented the war with rogues and saved his own flight from the war with prey that is about to begin in its stead. But all his friends are dead or banished, he paid a heavy price for his mistakes. Then the epilogue plays as it does now.

And then a secret level begins. We see Reshan awaken inside that enchanted pocket realm the lich-lord had created inside the cave. The player can move Reshan around to explore this space, discovering the little enchanted realm is no longer in the cave, but adrift in a sea of starry void. There is also now a meandering bridge connected to it. Following the bridge, there are more islands of little enchanted realms floating in the starry void on either side of the bridge. These may depict future events or possible futures (a bit like the multiplayer scenario Aethermaw). Eventually the bridge leads to Lich-Lord Sowan (Sowan in her true form, not like the avatar from the cave) who explains to Reshan that when he destroyed the cave before she could finish the disenchantment of the pocket realm, it was carried away to this place and so was he along with it.

He is now trapped here. There will be no way to return him to Irdya for 900 years. He will never again see those he left behind. But here in this place, those 900 years will seem to pass in but a few days. And in the this short time, there is very much to tell him of a new "greater purpose" that awaits him in Irdya's future.
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Re: Winds of Fate 3.0.0 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.15.13 and up)

Post by Lord-Knightmare »

Recently I had an idea for synthesizing the old with the new ending. Everything plays out as it did in the original draft, with Reshan gone. Gorlack is left alone on his mountain, having prevented the war with rogues and saved his own flight from the war with prey that is about to begin in its stead. But all his friends are dead or banished, he paid a heavy price for his mistakes. Then the epilogue plays as it does now.

And then a secret level begins. We see Reshan awaken inside that enchanted pocket realm the lich-lord had created inside the cave. The player can move Reshan around to explore this space, discovering the little enchanted realm is no longer in the cave, but adrift in a sea of starry void. There is also now a meandering bridge connected to it. Following the bridge, there are more islands of little enchanted realms floating in the starry void on either side of the bridge. These may depict future events or possible futures (a bit like the multiplayer scenario Aethermaw). Eventually the bridge leads to Lich-Lord Sowan (Sowan in her true form, not like the avatar from the cave) who explains to Reshan that when he destroyed the cave before she could finish the disenchantment of the pocket realm, it was carried away to this place and so was he along with it.

He is now trapped here. There will be no way to return him to Irdya for 900 years. He will never again see those he left behind. But here in this place, those 900 years will seem to pass in but a few days. And in the this short time, there is very much to tell him of a new "greater purpose" that awaits him in Irdya's future.
This is a very interesting idea/plot element. This can be the realm where the "Aethermaw" MP scenario is based on. Oh, wait..you mentioned this already :P . Also, what of the elven pursuers? did they get dragged into this as well? Hmm, so he will time travel to 903 YW? Very interesting. However, such a thing for a mainline campaign would be unwise. There should not be a cliffhanger element as then you would have hundreds of players playing it and asking "WoF sequel when?" For an add-on, it's fine then people know that a sequel might happen. Also, not sure how people would react to a "post-epilogue" scenario.
The Silver Mage is combing the shoals for a Fae artifact that was left there long ago by the either the Elves or the Nix.
I was going to have him/her drop a lore book with details about this, but with the beta so close I ran out of time to write it.
Explains it a lot. Maybe the lore book should be added in. Otherwise, there would be another asking "why did the Silver Mage spawn there?"
The drake fighter unit that stays with you is still in this scenario, you can find it at the nearest drake structure (the Cenotaph of Kotick) on the river island, whereas Karron is found at the distant Cenotaph of Morogor.
There was another drake village? My eyesight...Good thing I am getting better spectacles next week.
Healing oases are part of standard wesnoth game mechanics. Anytime you see them, in multiplayer or other campaigns, you can use them for healing. It is a shame there is not more than just this one healing terrain in core wesnoth.
You can make some yourself. Like...maybe healing tents. No income, but healing. Healing magic sand. Healing Fire (something to think about).
She came directly from the old continent many thousands of years ago and has no relation to Jevyan. Lich-Lord Sowan is one of the elder Lich-Lords, whom are privy to secrets and abilities no other beings or creatures are aware of except the Arkhai (Fire Guardians), the Will of the Fae, the Fire Dragons, the Silver Magi and (to a limited extent) the Glider Caste.

The elder Lich-Lords have lived long enough to uncover the deep history of Irdya and some connected places beyond it. In so doing, they have learned a terrible secret-- the true nature and designs of the Fae. They work to thwart it, though its power exceeds theirs by leaps and bounds.

This is why Lich-Lord Sowan is on the Great Continent; to study and harness the workings of the Fae over its enchanted creatures like the elves, woses, nix and faeries. This is the land where the Fae's connection to Irdya is most strong and its Will most confident. Here, she carefully skims just so little magic from its dreams as to not be noticed, and with what is skimmed she weaves a small but growing realm of dream-with-substance (something like a physical manifestation of the Fae's dream, which can be seen, heard, felt and tasted). With this she hopes to someday lure part of the Fae's Will into a trap or drive it to madness with the nightmare of "seeing its own reflection".

The younger Lich-Lords like Jevyan and Lenvan lack knowledge and perspective and so are still engaged in petty endeavors like conquering mundane creatures, amassing standing armies of undying slaves and collecting artifacts whose origin and purpose is yet far beyond their comprehension.
I wish "Lich-Lord" was gender specific, like "Lich-Lady" or "Lich-Mistress", otherwise I would not have mistaken the Sowan for a male lich lord. This is very interesting lore indeed. Also, can you mention the Elders of the Arkhai get known to be Fire Wraiths? (new unit added in). I expect a lot of overall in the timeline with such information and it all getting added in to the game lore inside the Encyclopedia.
The Stymphalians nest in the mountains, so they were a disproportionately big problem for you this play through because you took the highland coastal route. If you take the lowland coastal route you will encounter more of the Crocodiles and Cuttlefish. The middle route has a mix of things.
The middle route has water serpents, Lynx and Symphalians, Yeah, I'd rather take the high mountain one :P The coastal one, Cuttlefish do give 16XP per kill, but are 60HP maybe. and that poisoned ranged retaliation... However, multiple routes are present, to allow multiple approaches, going mountain and then shifting into the forest, etc.
What if you give it to a Clasher? Doesn't giving a decent ranged attack to a melee only unit give it a bit more utility?
Yes, it would be advantageous. However, I did not reload when I had a fighter caste drake pick it up :lol:
However, adding to an Arbiter is good, but a Thrasher, nope. My reason is that the sidebar UI looks congested with a unit having 4 or more attacks.
The lack of MAI use is very intentional; these were tested early on and I found they were bad for game play in the scenarios where we used them for the wild animals. MAIs make for lots of dragging the player's viewpoint around in random directions to follow uninteresting, harmless units as they random-walk here and there. What players want is a challenge from each scenario and the combat AI's provide that. So too do big, dangerous animals. Small animals with weak attacks quickly become a grind to deal with.
Ah, I see. Would have been nice though. For this one though, the map is shrouded so, it wouldn't be much of an issue.
How about using low upkeep level 1 recruits as your mainstay? The trouble with going heavily into veterans is that when they lose their hitpoints, they need several turns to heal... while sucking up your income with upkeep at an enormous rate.
This scenario is better (by a significant margin) than the WoV version, but I guess I can give Clasher spam with Augurs a go. From my saves, it's rather apparent that I started S11 with just a Warden as the only Clasher-caste unit. However, 40% def vs thunderguards and ulfs are going to be a bloodbath anyway.
At least with the veterans I had, it was a bit too easy to destroy everything Karron could throw at me with his 800 gold (after I let him return to keep unhindered), so I jumped up his gold to 1200.
Yes, I agree. The finale doesn't really look impressive. If the dishonourable path is considered, you can win by turn 5 at the earliest. If you force him to land on his keep, it becomes AI abuse since you have him cornered by 5 units already. The Glider and Burner wings don't really do much. Maybe one Burner wing should be swapped for the "Fighter wing" and the Clasher-wing can be stationed (spawned at prestart) at his keep, which slowly advance to the Gorlack's location. His starting gold can be reduced as consequence since most of his units will be from wave spawned.

However, I shall state it now. Winds of Fate has proven to be a level where it can should be added now. There is a fresh intake of deeper lore and scenario variety has changed a lot since WoV 2.0.5. I do hope WoF gets in. (and DM gets axed off like it deserves).
One scenario is questionable (S7), but I have seen worst scenarios in mainline (all of DM, LoW, EI,NR, SotA spider den), and compared to those, it is a lot better. Great work on the improvements.
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