Wings of Victory 1.0.6 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14/1.15)

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

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BTIsaac
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Re: Wings of Victory 1.0.5 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14/1.15)

Post by BTIsaac »

Whiskeyjack wrote:
January 6th, 2020, 4:27 pm
To somewhat break this circlejerk about circlejerking PC culture...
I'm sorry, i don't recall ever mentioning "PC culture", or thought policing.
If, however, you do none of those things, females are simply there to produce offspring, and nothing of this is self-reflected or actually works with that setting in a way so the story can benefit from it - then that is, plain and simple, bad writing.
I mentioned this before, but i recall a forum discussion on female drakes being biologically distinct from males, hence them being relegated to reproductive role. It does not appear in the in game encyclopedia so it may be nothing, but ridiculous levels of gender bimorphism, to the point of specimens of one gender are completely vestigial exist in the animal kingdom. Of course including this element in the plot would create an unnecessary bloat of exposition that's ultimately not relevant to the plot. And i don't know, it may not even be that good idea to begin with.
2) it actually is an endorsement; 3) you write it, because you are an [censored] that wants to anger people.
Sounds like a stretch to me. I see no reason to assign intent like this.

Oh and also...
(not even the Nazis were that simplistically gender divided and they had a very sexist and... ahem... recreationally oriented society...)
What does "recreationally oriented" even mean? You mean procreation? Also, I'm not sure i like the implications of this association. And i question the necessity of this association.

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Elder2
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Re: Wings of Victory 1.0.5 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14/1.15)

Post by Elder2 »

Whiskeyjack wrote:
January 6th, 2020, 4:27 pm
...
I mostly agree, I acknowledged that it may not be the best idea, many of the reasons you write about can be summed up as "bad writing". But I would say divisiveness is a very subjective reason, in this context it might be valid, but in general, maybe the author doesn't care and wanted the work to be controversial? That being said, the lore about drake females here isnt that big, its not the focus of a campaign. Also, the focus here was mainly on just the use of a word "breeder", would you not agree that focusing on a single word is a bit ridiculous? There was one word that was deemed "unacceptable under any circumstances" and that was it, there was some talk about the general idea of drake harem etc, thats fine, but my point here is that I would say use of a single word related to the topic that is not the main focus of the campaign, that itself isn't that "divisive". One could argue that the whole concept is divisive but one word, that doesn't seem like enough.
Point b) stems from point a)

Last thing, I find it interesting how somebody had to mention Nazis, Godwin's law applies. You know, Nazis aren't really known for being some massive sexists, that is why I find it kinda amusing. There absolutely were times and places in the world when women were just like you described it, totally irrelevant and seen as only good for raising children, such extreme approach wasn't that common but it did happen, yet it seems like you deemed it impossible. Im not advocating it or writing about it, just pointing out that it isn't a totally unrealistic scenario.


Oh, one more thing, people don't necessarily talk about "divisive" things because they are [censored], SOME people getting angry over something is no reason to shut up and never talk about something, just like somebody deciding that they are offended by something is no reason for everybody and anybody to never mention it again.
Last edited by Elder2 on January 11th, 2020, 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BTIsaac
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Re: Wings of Victory 1.0.5 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14/1.15)

Post by BTIsaac »

Elder2 wrote:
January 6th, 2020, 6:09 pm
But I would say divisiveness is a very subjective reason, in this context it might be valid, but in general, maybe the author doesn't care and wanted the work to be controversial? That being said, the lore about drake females here isnt that big, its not the focus of a campaign.
The writer behind this choice actually joined the developer discussion explaining his reasoning. He pretty much confirmed what i said earlier that the gender segregation in drake society is intended to be due to biological reasons (i.e. the gender-flipped angler fish analogy) and cited another fantasy race from another work with similar features.

I believe this discussion ultimately boils down to how alien can writers get away with making the drakes whil still keeping them relatable. I made my point on the subject clear when the possibility of female trolls were brought up. There, I mentioned the UMC Fate of a Princess, which makes an off hand speculation of trolls being a one gender race that reproduce through budding. Considering the lore behind trolls, the fact that they're basically rock monsters, and the fact that they are compared to Woses who are for all intents and purposes sentient trees, I find this to be a much more interesting idea that the "safe route" of them having males and female and reproducing normally.

Unfortunately the discussion started devolving into something about political correctness, misogyny and "male dominance fantasies" (whatever the heck that means).

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Elder2
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Re: Wings of Victory 1.0.5 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14/1.15)

Post by Elder2 »

BTIsaac wrote:
January 7th, 2020, 9:36 am
...
Male dominance fantasy: When you buy 10 hens and 1 rooster.

Its a buzzword. The protagonist might have not been written in an interesting way, but does somebody really fantasise about being a drake leader gifted with females so they can lay him eggs?


Btw I read the posts in that thread, some good points were made.

BTIsaac
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Re: Wings of Victory 1.0.5 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14/1.15)

Post by BTIsaac »

Elder2 wrote:
January 7th, 2020, 11:38 am
Its a buzzword. The protagonist might have not been written in an interesting way, but does somebody really fantasise about being a drake leader gifted with females so they can lay him eggs?
That's what I meant by "I don't know what that means". I honestly don't think any MAN would seriously fantasize about being at the top of some sort of dominance hierarchy as the lone alpha male surrounded by submissive women. As far as I know, characters like that are almost exclusively used as the main love interest in trashy "romance novels".

Wasn't "the male fantasy" an internet meme back in 2017?

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Hejnewar
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Re: Wings of Victory 1.0.5 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14/1.15)

Post by Hejnewar »

BTIsaac wrote:
January 7th, 2020, 9:36 am
I believe this discussion ultimately boils down to how alien can writers get away with making the drakes whil still keeping them relatable. I made my point on the subject clear when the possibility of female trolls were brought up. There, I mentioned the UMC Fate of a Princess, which makes an off hand speculation of trolls being a one gender race that reproduce through budding. Considering the lore behind trolls, the fact that they're basically rock monsters, and the fact that they are compared to Woses who are for all intents and purposes sentient trees, I find this to be a much more interesting idea that the "safe route" of them having males and female and reproducing normally.
nemaara wrote:
January 7th, 2020, 1:31 am
...
I like the concept of budding but it's hard to do when it comes to something bigger than one cell therefore I think I would rather see soul budding. For example Troll feels that it's that time again and starts searching for big enough rock, then Troll hugs or touches it and gives it part of his soul. Then that rock forms into troll whelp.

Also this posses a question, in wesnoth we have simple - primal elementals like fire elementals, but also advanced elementals like trolls that have thier own species, I wonder what is the difference between primal rock elemental and troll. My answer would be that trolls werent always trolls but they were another species before at least one of them had his soul combined with soul of rock elemental (that would be created in the same way as multicellular organisms were).

But this is topic about drakes right? So what if drakes weret always drakes? What if at some point they combined with fire elementals in order to gain power of fire? Maybe even during great war on the old continent as a last ray of hope?

What do you think?

BTIsaac
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Re: Wings of Victory 1.0.5 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14/1.15)

Post by BTIsaac »

Hejnewar wrote:
January 7th, 2020, 12:57 pm
I like the concept of budding but it's hard to do when it comes to something bigger than one cell therefore I think I would rather see soul budding. For example Troll feels that it's that time again and starts searching for big enough rock, then Troll hugs or touches it and gives it part of his soul. Then that rock forms into troll whelp.
Here's the thing though. Trees can reproduce asexually, through saplings. If the woses work in a similar way, i see no reason why this cannot work for trolls.


But this is topic about drakes right? So what if drakes weret always drakes? What if at some point they combined with fire elementals in order to gain power of fire? Maybe even during great war on the old continent as a last ray of hope?

What do you think?
I'm not sure what to think. My idea about the trolls got shot down pretty quick, and there seems to be a strong opposition to making races in wesnoth "too alien". The issue female drakes is still out there, and i have a feeling this discussion will not end without it, along with WoV getting axed from mainline completely.

name
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Re: Wings of Victory 1.0.5 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14/1.15)

Post by name »

vultraz wrote:
January 6th, 2020, 11:25 pm
The portrayal of female drakes isn't something I deemed could be solved without significant rewrites,
You are completely wrong about this and people with actual knowledge of WoV's dialogue have told you removing a few lines of plot independent dialogue is all it would take to satisfy even nemaara's demands for art censorship.

Yet you have still failed to undo your rash decision of removal. Why is that?
vultraz wrote:
January 6th, 2020, 11:25 pm
There's nothing that says you cannot have challenging material in writing, but material is more than how it is presented. If you put a character in a story that constantly says the N word for no reason and you say it's there to "push boundaries", then, well, you're wrong. That's just an excuse to use the N word. You do not "challenge" by punching down. You "challenge" by punching up.
What the hell does this even mean "punching down" and "punching up"? Is that political speak? Wesnoth is a fantasy game in a dark-age-to-medieval type setting and drakes are in no way human, they are dragons. They have reptilian morphology, wings, spit flame and are exclusively carnivores. How did you pull a social "justice" narrative out of this?
vultraz wrote:
January 6th, 2020, 11:25 pm
When you're making decisions about the direction of a project as a whole, sometimes plans need to be changed. That doesn't mean we don't appreciate work done before.
So, wesnoth content can and will be removed by you alone, at any time, without warning or constructive feedback. Wesnoth is solely yours now. Why should anyone even bother (attempting) contributing then?

BTIsaac
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Re: Wings of Victory 1.0.5 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14/1.15)

Post by BTIsaac »

name wrote:
January 7th, 2020, 4:56 pm
What the hell does this even mean "punching down" and "punching up"? Is that political speak? Wesnoth is a fantasy game in a dark-age-to-medieval type setting and drakes are in no way human, they are dragons. They have reptilian morphology, wings, spit flame and are exclusively carnivores. How did you pull a social "justice" narrative out of this?

So, wesnoth content can and will be removed by you alone, at any time, without warning or constructive feedback. Wesnoth is solely yours now. Why should anyone even bother (attempting) contributing then?
Please calm down, this is not going to solve anything. Yes, just like "male dominance fantasy", "punching up" and "punching down" are buzzwords, that don't really mean anything (and technically, so is "social justice"). That being said, getting outraged and throwing around accusations isn't going to solve anything. I've said this to others and I'll say it here, we're not going to have a case here with an antagonizing attitude. If you can't approach this diplomatically, you're not making a good case for yourself.

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Hejnewar
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Re: Wings of Victory 1.0.5 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14/1.15)

Post by Hejnewar »

BTIsaac wrote:
January 7th, 2020, 4:12 pm
Here's the thing though. Trees can reproduce asexually, through saplings. If the woses work in a similar way, i see no reason why this cannot work for trolls.

I'm not sure what to think. My idea about the trolls got shot down pretty quick, and there seems to be a strong opposition to making races in wesnoth "too alien". The issue female drakes is still out there, and i have a feeling this discussion will not end without it, along with WoV getting axed from mainline completely.
Trees don't reproduce asexually in nature under normal circumstances (I know of at least one species that can reproduce asexsualy if main body of tree is destroyed), unless you are counting cases when tree pollinated itself but I think this is still sexsual and plants often have mechanisms to defend against that happening. Humans reproduce some trees that can be reproduced asexually thru cutting.

Well I don't really care if it get shut down or not. That's just idea that I have. Alien things can be good but you need right approach to make them interesting, making something alien just to have something alien (making anything just to have that) is not good. But having something different to make people interested is good in my opinion. And so I'm trying to think about something interesting for drakes and general worldbuilding.

Btw. Aren't saplings just small trees? How can this be a method of reproduction?

BTIsaac
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Re: Wings of Victory 1.0.5 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14/1.15)

Post by BTIsaac »

Hejnewar wrote:
January 7th, 2020, 9:12 pm
Trees don't reproduce asexually in nature under normal circumstances
Many plants, can reproduce asexually if a part of them splits off and grows into a new plant (maybe sapling isn't the correct term). This could occur naturally or by human intervention. Considering that woses are humanoid trees...

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Hejnewar
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Re: Wings of Victory 1.0.5 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14/1.15)

Post by Hejnewar »

BTIsaac wrote:
January 7th, 2020, 11:05 pm
Hejnewar wrote:
January 7th, 2020, 9:12 pm
Trees don't reproduce asexually in nature under normal circumstances
Many plants, can reproduce asexually if a part of them splits off and grows into a new plant (maybe sapling isn't the correct term). This could occur naturally or by human intervention. Considering that woses are humanoid trees...
Would you cut off your own finger (leafs are not enough for tree to reproduce you need branch or root) for example to create copy of yourself if every year / few years (depends) you create hundreds if not thousands of seeds and each of them will become tree if you take care of it properly? And if you are alone you can always pollinate yourself usually depends, if you can't then you can cut your finger off again if your species is correct.

Sorry I'm maybe even too technical with this stuff. That's good but also bad habit of mine.

Wayirr
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Re: Wings of Victory 1.0.5 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14/1.15)

Post by Wayirr »

I don't think that single branch of a wose is same as a finger for a human. Trees can grow new branches back pretty easily.

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The_Gnat
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Re: Wings of Victory 1.0.5 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14/1.15)

Post by The_Gnat »

Wayirr wrote:
January 8th, 2020, 12:59 am
... Trees can grow new branches back pretty easily.
I am very amused by where this conversation has turned. :D
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Re: Wings of Victory 1.0.5 (Drake Campaign for BfW 1.14/1.15)

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

I second Whiskeyjack's post.
Hejnewar wrote:
January 7th, 2020, 12:57 pm
I like the concept of budding but it's hard to do when it comes to something bigger than one cell
Um, I'm just gonna point to medusae (aka jellyfish) as a counter-example here.
BTIsaac wrote:
January 7th, 2020, 4:12 pm
Here's the thing though. Trees can reproduce asexually, through saplings.
Um what. A "sapling" is just a young tree, not some mechanism of reproduction. Maybe you meant to say "cuttings"? (Which isn't exclusive to trees, mind you.)

There are also other plants that can "reproduce" asexually via "runners" – strawberries for example.
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